Discussion Thread 2007 (Part 4)

[Riviera]

Continue here ----->

R

[ArubaSteve]

IMO Beth did run the show. And as soon as she got the ear of Jossy the publicity seeker and teller of tales it got even worse. What do you mean "she doesn't speak the language"? They speak english.

[Luke Davis]

And finally, to complete the cable realness, Natalee Holloway's mother bounced out and declared, "When Rita came to Aruba, she had one mission—to seek justice!"

VOICE (http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0741,musto,78025,15.html)

[ortiga]

And finally, to complete the cable realness, Natalee Holloway's mother bounced out and declared, "When Rita came to Aruba, she had one mission—to seek justice!"

VOICE (http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0741,musto,78025,15.html)

Some wordsmiths certainly know how to capture an vivid image with a minimum of words. ;)

[ortiga]

OMG :eek:

Fasten your seatbeats and get out the dramamine!!

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #846 in Books

Down over 300 in just 1 day!!

[Luke Davis]

OMG :eek:

Fasten your seatbeats and get out the dramamine!!

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #846 in Books

Down over 300 in just 1 day!!
wait until Texas (http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=4595484&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1)

[ortiga]

wait until Texas (http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=4595484&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1)


But maybe the appearances are the problem?

[ortiga]

OMG :eek:

Fasten your seatbeats and get out the dramamine!!

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #846 in Books

Down over 300 in just 1 day!!

For some, ginger works well to defeat extreme motion sickness

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #960 in Books

Better note the time as the book is dropping about 80 positions an hour: 5:25 pm Wed

Once when she was in Texas Beth auctioned off a "Call me Hootie" poster.

Maybe if she gives away hootie posters with the books?

IMO

[ortiga]

OMG around noon wed:
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #846 in Books


Amazon.com Sales Rank: #960 in Books

Better note the time as the book is dropping about 80 positions an hour: 5:25 pm Wed



7:30 pm same day: Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,023 in Books

[fairmaiden]

<*R>

Well Heyes .... Personally, I think it's noteworthy. Do you think people might be learning, by word of mouth, that the "TRUTH" of the kidnapping in Aruba .... is just NOT in that book !!?? As Aruba Steve said today, you would think the truth would be revealed, backed up by some FACTS.

JMO

[ortiga]

Well Heyes .... Personally, I think it's noteworthy. Do you think people might be learning, by word of mouth, that the "TRUTH" of the kidnapping in Aruba .... is just NOT in that book !!?? As Aruba Steve said today, you would think the truth would be revealed, backed up by some FACTS.

JMO

It is an eyeopener, FM. Dave's book is hovering around 14,000, I would be willing to bet that Beth's book is at the same level pretty soon now. So far I haven't seen that the word "kidnapping" is even addressed in the text. Kinda like in some places south of the border they say "salmon" on the can of fish in big letters, and then when you open the can it's ground up tuna.

IMO

[Riviera]

I suggest everyone stay on topic and stop with the personal insults.


Thank you
R

[Riviera]

Please send your personal grievances either through pm or the report a post option. They do not belong on the open forum. If the bickering/personal insults continue you will leave me no other option than to lock this thread. For how long? I will leave that up to Freshwater.

Thank you
R

<*Posts Deleted>

[ortiga]

Barnes and Noble sales rank..... Oct 10 Sales Rank: 2741
Barnesandnoble.com

[ortiga]

7:30 pm same day: Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,023 in Books


8:15 pm: amazon ranking Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,085

How many ways to spell p l u m m e t ?

[Luke Davis]

Hi ortiga .... Since the book has only been out for a short time, it DOES seem to be plummeting in sales. I think it's predictable .... the people who have placed Beth on some kind of pedestal for this entire time, are going to rave about the book. Those who are looking for the TRUTH, are not so enamored by it.

Just My OpinionI think we all got what we expected. I was hoping for more but nothing really caught my attention.

Beth could have put so much into the book, answered so many questions but she chose not to.

I would like to have learned more about the chaperones. Were they Natalee's teachers? Did they see her in the car with the island guys?

What about GVC? Was he grabbing Natalee on the dance floor? Did the MB guys get in a scuffle with him?

And GVC's friend Steve Croes? He still has me baffled. And so much more.

But no. We hear about a restaurant, going to the laundry and handing out prayer cards. I don't want to hear about Beth. I want to know about the kidnapping. :shrug:

So, I'll wait and hope something comes out in the Kalpoe lawsuit.:hat:

[fairmaiden]

I think we all got what we expected. I was hoping for more but nothing really caught my attention.

Beth could have put so much into the book, answered so many questions but she chose not to.

I would like to have learned more about the chaperones. Were they Natalee's teachers? Did they see her in the car with the island guys?

What about GVC? Was he grabbing Natalee on the dance floor? Did the MB guys get in a scuffle with him?

And GVC's friend Steve Croes? He still has me baffled. And so much more.

But no. We hear about a restaurant, going to the laundry and handing out prayer cards. I don't want to hear about Beth. I want to know about the kidnapping. :shrug:

So, I'll wait and hope something comes out in the Kalpoe lawsuit.:hat:

Luke .... You absolutely summed it all up. We have constantly heard about all the proof she claims to have .... about what she has to say that will "shock the world".

Her Foundation is dedicated to telling "Natalee's Story", when none of it has ever been proven .... not to mention her constant accusations of three people of crimes so terrible, again without proof.

JMO

[Grandad]

I think we all got what we expected. I was hoping for more but nothing really caught my attention.

Beth could have put so much into the book, answered so many questions but she chose not to.

I would like to have learned more about the chaperones. Were they Natalee's teachers? Did they see her in the car with the island guys?

What about GVC? Was he grabbing Natalee on the dance floor? Did the MB guys get in a scuffle with him?

And GVC's friend Steve Croes? He still has me baffled. And so much more.

But no. We hear about a restaurant, going to the laundry and handing out prayer cards. I don't want to hear about Beth. I want to know about the kidnapping. :shrug:

So, I'll wait and hope something comes out in the Kalpoe lawsuit.:hat:


Not to be insulting or disrespectful, but I don't understand how anyone who has followed this case from the beginning could have expected anything more from Beth's book than what it presented.

[Luke Davis]

Not to be insulting or disrespectful, but I don't understand how anyone who has followed this case from the beginning could have expected anything more from Beth's book than what it presented.
HOPE springs eternal. :hat:

[Grandad]

HOPE springs eternal. :hat:

But I believe hope and expectation are two different things.

[fairmaiden]

Not to be insulting or disrespectful, but I don't understand how anyone who has followed this case from the beginning could have expected anything more from Beth's book than what it presented.

Grandad .... I have to tell you, I was actually WONDERING about the book, especially when I saw the subtitle on the front cover . I thought maybe she DID have something that was going to be news to us all .... something solid .... something FACTUAL about the "Kidnapping". It didn't take me long to find out that the TRUTH of the "kidnapping" was never divulged in the book .... from what I understand, it's just an elaboration of what we've heard for over 2 years.

JMO

[fairmaiden]

Remember, it was HUGE.

Yes, I DO remember that Eury .... It's my opinion that this "news" was Deepak's interview with Skeeters, where, according to Beth, he admitted they all raped Natalee. Of course, we all know where THAT stands now.

JMO

[No Nic]

Yes, I DO remember that Eury .... It's my opinion that this "news" was Deepak's interview with Skeeters, where, according to Beth, he admitted they all raped Natalee. Of course, we all know where THAT stands now.

JMO

How does it "stand", FM?

Has there been a resolution in the lawsuit?

Has a judge ruled in Deepaks favor?

Or was it a jury trial?

Please enlighten me as to what "we all know".

TIA

[HiLife]

Yes, I DO remember that Eury .... It's my opinion that this "news" was Deepak's interview with Skeeters, where, according to Beth, he admitted they all raped Natalee. Of course, we all know where THAT stands now.

JMO

Where does THAT stand? What is it "we all know?"

jmo

[HiLife]

<snip>

It didn't take me long to find out that the TRUTH of the "kidnapping" was never divulged in the book .... from what I understand, it's just an elaboration of what we've heard for over 2 years.

JMO

Yes, what we have heard for over 2 years is that ALE and the Aruban Prosecutor's office suspect Joran and the Kalpoes of kidnap, rape and murder.

JMO

[No Nic]

Where does THAT stand? What is it "we all know?"

jmo

GMTA ;)

imo

[HiLife]

GMTA ;)

imo
I'm honored!

:hat:

[Grandad]

Yes, what we have heard for over 2 years is that ALE and the Aruban Prosecutor's office suspect Joran and the Kalpoes of kidnap, rape and murder.

JMO

Along with how many others? Six? Seven?

[HiLife]

Along with how many others? Six? Seven?

J2K were/are the primary suspects.

jmo

[No Nic]

J2K were/are the primary suspects.

jmo

"All roads lead back to JK2" ~Quote from Aruba~

[HiLife]

"All roads lead back to JK2" ~Quote from Aruba~

Pithy, yet true.

Nite, NN! :seeya:

[Grandad]

J2K were/are the primary suspects.

jmo

I don't believe ALE or the Aruban prosecutor ever referred to J2K as "primary" suspects. If you have a link to an official statement from either designating them "primary suspects", I'd really appreciate your posting it.

[No Nic]

I don't believe ALE or the Aruban prosecutor ever referred to J2K as "primary" suspects. If you have a link to an official statement from either designating them "primary suspects", I'd really appreciate your posting it.

“Bringing in the prime suspect is basically the last thing we do," Dompig explains. "When we bring you in, we probably already know the story because we have observed. We have talked to all your friends. We have checked your phone line. We have done everything that is technically possible to know about your whereabouts.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/48hours/main1430644_page3.shtml

Here is just one, spin it any way you want (prime/primary, lol), but Dompig is clearly speaking of JK2. I am confident there are more out there, but I am to tired tonight to search further.

imo :seeya:

[Riviera]

Here's the deal folks. I've been getting non-stop reports from this forum. 1st it was the "Loving Natlie" thread - end result - Locked. Then it was the Discussion Thread Part 3 - end result - Locked. Now I'm getting reports about Discussion Thread Part 4 and you haven't even made it to the 2nd page yet? :shrug: My advice is this --->

Step away from your keyboard or step away from this particular topic for a few days. Crime Library offers plenty of other topics/forums to post on - maybe a change would do you good?

My only other option is to start banning people - which forces you to take a vacation from posting here. I do not want to lock this thread because a few of you can't be civil - it's simply not fair to the others.

Thank you
R

[JustMyOpinion]

I don't believe ALE or the Aruban prosecutor ever referred to J2K as "primary" suspects. If you have a link to an official statement from either designating them "primary suspects", I'd really appreciate your posting it.


I think it's common sense to determine J2K are the primary suspects in this case.
They were the last three known persons to be seen with a living, Natalee Holloway.
They are proven, admitted liars who changed their story after being taken into custody.
Their versions don't match up, and they lack corroboration for their stories.
Joran and the Kalpoes' detentions were prolonged, and the Kalpoes were re-arrested, and they all three were held for periods of time on reasonable suspicion of involvement in alleged crimes of kidnap, rape & murder.
Joran's court bid to have himself officially cleared as a suspect was unsuccessful.
This Spring when Dutch investigators came to Aruba, they searched the van der Sloot property and visited the Kalpoe home.
And, Dompig told Dan Abrams all paths lead back to J2K.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9676188/page/2/

[Grandad]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/48hours/main1430644_page3.shtml

Here is just one, spin it any way you want (prime/primary, lol), but Dompig is clearly speaking of JK2. I am confident there are more out there, but I am to tired tonight to search further.

imo :seeya:


Nice try, but that statement would make all suspects the primary suspect.

Dompig is not clearly referring to anyone.

If you have a few spare days, read everything ever written about the case and see if you can find one reference to any official statement by ALE or the prosecutor officially designating anyone as the "prime" or "primary" suspect.

[Grandad]

I think it's common sense to determine J2K are the primary suspects in this case.
They were the last three known persons to be seen with a living, Natalee Holloway.
They are proven, admitted liars who changed their story after being taken into custody.
Their versions don't match up, and they lack corroboration for their stories.
Joran and the Kalpoes' detentions were prolonged, and the Kalpoes were re-arrested, and they all three were held for periods of time on reasonable suspicion of involvement in alleged crimes of kidnap, rape & murder.
Joran's court bid to have himself officially cleared as a suspect was unsuccessful.
This Spring when Dutch investigators came to Aruba, they searched the van der Sloot property and visited the Kalpoe home.
And, Dompig told Dan Abrams all paths lead back to J2K.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9676188/page/2/

J2K are suspects, just like the others.

Neither ALE nor the prosecutor have ever designated any "primary" suspects, and even if they had, until they are charged, it would mean nothing.

[Grandad]

Also from No Nic's link (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/48hours/main1430644_page5.shtml).

"And there’s another stunning revelation from the authorities: Though they’re convinced Holloway is dead, they tell 48 Hours that they believe she was not murdered."

And, "We’re not talking about killers here."

Seems Dompig doesn't agree with the experts on this board.

[ortiga]

Yes, what we have heard for over 2 years is that ALE and the Aruban Prosecutor's office suspect Joran and the Kalpoes of kidnap, rape and murder.

JMOThe "crimes" are only suspected to have happened. And if the crimes did happen, the suspects are only suspected to have committed the suspected crimes.

[ortiga]

I think it's common sense to determine J2K are the primary suspects in this case.
They were the last three known persons to be seen with a living, Natalee Holloway.
They are proven, admitted liars who changed their story after being taken into custody.
Their versions don't match up, and they lack corroboration for their stories.
Joran and the Kalpoes' detentions were prolonged, and the Kalpoes were re-arrested, and they all three were held for periods of time on reasonable suspicion of involvement in alleged crimes of kidnap, rape & murder.
Joran's court bid to have himself officially cleared as a suspect was unsuccessful.
This Spring when Dutch investigators came to Aruba, they searched the van der Sloot property and visited the Kalpoe home.
And, Dompig told Dan Abrams all paths lead back to J2K.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9676188/page/2/

Common sense or no common sense, there was never an official, published, ranking coming from the prosecutors office or ALE as to a ranking of the suspects...primary, secondary, tertiary, etc.

Also, on Abrams, Dompig told Abrams that Twitty was mistaken about having a document that supposedly said that Joran took Natalee to his house and had sex with her. Abrams asked Twitty, paraphrased, if she wanted some time to compose herself. Point being, quotes from Dompig can be used to bolster any point of view in the case.

IMO

[ortiga]

Yes, I DO remember that Eury .... It's my opinion that this "news" was Deepak's interview with Skeeters, where, according to Beth, he admitted they all raped Natalee. Of course, we all know where THAT stands now.

JMO

It is sure curious that she left all of that out of her book. Not that I hoped or expected it!!!

Anyone who just picks up the book without a background of knowledge will think that it is entirely a different case. Whatever happened to the accusations by Twitty of gangrape, kidnapping and the "taking of her life"? Of Deepak's "confession to gangrape"? All the things she said about the VDS family and the Kalpoes on TV? Not even the words on the cover of the very same book are supported within, IMO

[fairmaiden]

It is sure curious that she left all of that out of her book. Not that I hoped or expected it!!!

Anyone who just picks up the book without a background of knowledge will think that it is entirely a different case. Whatever happened to the accusations by Twitty of gangrape, kidnapping and the "taking of her life"? Of Deepak's "confession to gangrape"? All the things she said about the VDS family and the Kalpoes on TV? Not even the words on the cover of the very same book are supported within, IMO

I couldn't agree with you more, ortiga.

JMO

[Luke Davis]

But I believe hope and expectation are two different things.
Exactly........

[Luke Davis]

"All roads lead back to JK2" ~Quote from Aruba~Would that be the corrupt Aruba?

[Luke Davis]

I think it's common sense to determine J2K are the primary suspects in this case.
They were the last three known persons to be seen with a living, Natalee Holloway.
They are proven, admitted liars who changed their story after being taken into custody.
Their versions don't match up, and they lack corroboration for their stories.
Joran and the Kalpoes' detentions were prolonged, and the Kalpoes were re-arrested, and they all three were held for periods of time on reasonable suspicion of involvement in alleged crimes of kidnap, rape & murder.
Joran's court bid to have himself officially cleared as a suspect was unsuccessful.
This Spring when Dutch investigators came to Aruba, they searched the van der Sloot property and visited the Kalpoe home.
And, Dompig told Dan Abrams all paths lead back to J2K.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9676188/page/2/

I agree J2K deserve to be the prime suspects. But I also think our view is through a dark glass as presented by the international news and particularly FOX News. We are not exposed to interviews by the other suspects. For example, I believe Steve Croes is fascinating but I know little about him. I'm not sure who AB is but there are rumors. GVC, GW?

All roads lead back to J2K partly because the other roads aren't well travelled.

[terrysdoor]

I agree J2K deserve to be the prime suspects. But I also think our view is through a dark glass as presented by the international news and particularly FOX News. We are not exposed to interviews by the other suspects. For example, I believe Steve Croes is fascinating but I know little about him. I'm not sure who AB is but there are rumors. GVC, GW?

All roads lead back to J2K partly because the other roads aren't well travelled.

Luke i agree Beth was looking for Joran the very minute she landed on the island and IMO never really looked else where

[ortiga]

I agree J2K deserve to be the prime suspects. But I also think our view is through a dark glass as presented by the international news and particularly FOX News. We are not exposed to interviews by the other suspects. For example, I believe Steve Croes is fascinating but I know little about him. I'm not sure who AB is but there are rumors. GVC, GW?

All roads lead back to J2K partly because the other roads aren't well travelled.

Deserving to be, from what we know, sure I agree with that. However, the discussion was about whether or not they were ever deemed "prime" suspects, ie with an official category, and from what I have seen that never happened. I hope all of this is moot within a few weeks anyway. It will become awkward, IMO, to phrase it correctly......ex suspects in a suspected kidnapping, rape, and murder crime that was never proven to take place.

IMO

[ortiga]

Luke i agree Beth was looking for Joran the very minute she landed on the island and IMO never really looked else where

I suppose we will never know, but I think it would be SOOOO illuminating to find out how many people Beth actually talked to before getting on that fab 7 jet.........(ie Natalee, MB students, chaparones", ex step nephews), and what was said.

Has there ever been any proof that Twitty's phone records were actually received by ALE?

IMO

[Luke Davis]

Deserving to be, from what we know, sure I agree with that. However, the discussion was about whether or not they were ever deemed "prime" suspects, ie with an official category, and from what I have seen that never happened. I hope all of this is moot within a few weeks anyway. It will become awkward, IMO, to phrase it correctly......ex suspects in a suspected kidnapping, rape, and murder crime that was never proven to take place.

IMO

PRIME has many definitions but certainly time spent in prison distinguishes the three, J2K.

[Luke Davis]

Luke i agree Beth was looking for Joran the very minute she landed on the island and IMO never really looked else whereTrue and she spoke very little of the others. She even reportedly offered Deepak a substantial amount of money for betraying Joran. One could easily think Beth protected GVC by saying Joran grabbed Natalee on the dance floor at CnC. Later she reportedly admitted it was GVC.

[fairmaiden]

PRIME has many definitions but certainly time spent in prison distinguishes the three, J2K.

Well .... if that were the only distinguishing factor, Luke .... I would agree with you. You're correct, they spent the longest time in prison .... but isn't it important to remember they were RELEASED from custody, basically without any restrictions, presumably because of lack of evidence ??

What some people say about this case is so true, IMO. I would think Aruba would be HOPING for a solution to this case. Why would they want themselves in the limelight for this length of time ??


JMO

[Grandad]

PRIME has many definitions but certainly time spent in prison distinguishes the three, J2K.

It makes J2K the most investigated, and most intensively interrogated suspects. Nothing more.

Actually, there are those who would say it makes them scapegoats.

[fairmaiden]

True and she spoke very little of the others. She even reportedly offered Deepak a substantial amount of money for betraying Joran. One could easily think Beth protected GVC by saying Joran grabbed Natalee on the dance floor at CnC. Later she reportedly admitted it was GVC.

That's true, Luke . IF it was GVC who grabbed Natalee on the dancefloor, as Beth ultimately said .... why would she say it was Joran for so many months. This was reported by the TH's .... it was a "slap" .... it was a "punch, with a closed fist" .... it was "inappropriate touching".

Why would she protect GVC?? Why would she allow the erroneous statement to stand for so many months, before ultimately saying it was GVC ??

JMO

[SukiJane]

Would that be the corrupt Aruba?

Yep, I believe so...the same corrupt Aruba that claims they have no evidence of a crime, yet has roads leading back to J2k in a criminal investigation. go figure! jmo

[SukiJane]

PRIME has many definitions but certainly time spent in prison distinguishes the three, J2K.

Being the last known people to be with Natalee, definitely distinguishes the three, especially Joran. Another distinguishing factor is that there is no evidence of an alive Natalee anywhere after Joran. In my opinion, I'm not sure why there would be roads going back to Joran, if in fact there weren't ever any roads leading away from him.

jmo

[ortiga]

Being the last known people to be with Natalee, definitely distinguishes the three, especially Joran. Another distinguishing factor is that there is no evidence of an alive Natalee anywhere after Joran. In my opinion, I'm not sure why there would be roads going back to Joran, if in fact there weren't ever any roads leading away from him.

jmo


It is sad that she wanted to stay on the beach, instead of going to her hotel as Joran had offered, he even going to the extreme of trying to carry her. People make bad decisions when they are drinking, I know that from experience. It's just fate that somehow lets one person get away with risky behavior and another person doesn't get the same leeway. Just a sad fact of life. I read just yesterday that a student was shot to death on the campus of the University of Alabama, the school Natalee was planning on going to. There is danger everywhere on earth, and all one can do is try to not take too many chances, IMO.

IMO

[ortiga]

Yep, I believe so...the same corrupt Aruba that claims they have no evidence of a crime, yet has roads leading back to J2k in a criminal investigation. go figure! jmo

I don't think there has been any proof presented of "Aruba" being "corrupt", could you be more specific?

[HiLife]

Being the last known people to be with Natalee, definitely distinguishes the three, especially Joran. Another distinguishing factor is that there is no evidence of an alive Natalee anywhere after Joran. In my opinion, I'm not sure why there would be roads going back to Joran, if in fact there weren't ever any roads leading away from him.

jmo

Good logic there, Suki.

The whole beach story, where Joran CLAIMS he last saw Natalee (after multiple other stories) is fraught with lies. Let's suspend disbelief here for a moment because nothing about his story makes sense.

The whole lie from Joran about Natalee wanting to be left on the beach is just that - yet another Joran lie. To me, it was Joran's way of covering up the heinous fact that he left a young lady alone on a very dark, scary beach. I don't believe Natalee knew Joran was going to take off like he did with (supposedly) Satish. And certainly Natalee must NOT have asked to remain there. Ludicrous. If any of this story is true (roll eyes), what I believe is that Joran said he was going to the car and would come back - and he NEVER DID.

As Joran described, they took off fast (he attributes this to Satish, but I believe it was Joran. Nevermind the fact that the Kalpoes are denying any part of this supposed beach pick up). What is laughable is the "gentlemanly" version from Joran that he "offered to take her to her hotel." Joran has no idea what the word "gentlemanly" even means. If he did, he wouldn't have taken off knowing he was leaving a girl alone on the beach. His story, like all his other stories, is rife with inconsistencies. Again, this is as if this beach story really happened!

I don't think Natalee was alive at that point to be able to say she "wanted to stay on the beach" and as a matter of logic, nor would she want to stay on a dark, empty, scary beach in a foreign country.

JMO

[SukiJane]

It is sad that she wanted to stay on the beach, instead of going to her hotel as Joran had offered, he even going to the extreme of trying to carry her. People make bad decisions when they are drinking, I know that from experience. It's just fate that somehow lets one person get away with risky behavior and another person doesn't get the same leeway. Just a sad fact of life. I read just yesterday that a student was shot to death on the campus of the University of Alabama, the school Natalee was planning on going to. There is danger everywhere on earth, and all one can do is try to not take too many chances, IMO.

IMO

When someone can come up with something more than what Joran said regarding Natalee, then perhaps I'll take that into consideration when speculating on what could have happened to her...otherwise Joran is a liar that will do and say anything to cover his behind. jmo

[Luke Davis]

It is sad that she wanted to stay on the beach, instead of going to her hotel as Joran had offered, he even going to the extreme of trying to carry her. People make bad decisions when they are drinking, I know that from experience. It's just fate that somehow lets one person get away with risky behavior and another person doesn't get the same leeway. Just a sad fact of life. I read just yesterday that a student was shot to death on the campus of the University of Alabama, the school Natalee was planning on going to. There is danger everywhere on earth, and all one can do is try to not take too many chances, IMO.

IMO

So sad, she pulled off the road when her cell phone rang. Her friend heard everything and could do nothing. Maybe it was a bad part of town by crack houses. Maybe Natalee walked by crack houses.:shrug:

[Luke Davis]

Good logic there, Suki.

The whole beach story, where Joran CLAIMS he last saw Natalee (after multiple other stories) is fraught with lies. Let's suspend disbelief here for a moment because nothing about his story makes sense.

The whole lie from Joran about Natalee wanting to be left on the beach is just that - yet another Joran lie. To me, it was Joran's way of covering up the heinous fact that he left a young lady alone on a very dark, scary beach. I don't believe Natalee knew Joran was going to take off like he did with (supposedly) Satish. And certainly Natalee must NOT have asked to remain there. Ludicrous. If any of this story is true (roll eyes), what I believe is that Joran said he was going to the car and would come back - and he NEVER DID.

As Joran described, they took off fast (he attributes this to Satish, but I believe it was Joran. Nevermind the fact that the Kalpoes are denying any part of this supposed beach pick up). What is laughable is the "gentlemanly" version from Joran that he "offered to take her to her hotel." Joran has no idea what the word "gentlemanly" even means. If he did, he wouldn't have taken off knowing he was leaving a girl alone on the beach. His story, like all his other stories, is rife with inconsistencies. Again, this is as if this beach story really happened!

I don't think Natalee was alive at that point to be able to say she "wanted to stay on the beach" and as a matter of logic, nor would she want to stay on a dark, empty, scary beach in a foreign country.

JMO

Reportedly, Beth doesn't believe Natalee was at the beach. :shrug:

[SukiJane]

Good logic there, Suki.

The whole beach story, where Joran CLAIMS he last saw Natalee (after multiple other stories) is fraught with lies. Let's suspend disbelief here for a moment because nothing about his story makes sense.

The whole lie from Joran about Natalee wanting to be left on the beach is just that - yet another Joran lie. To me, it was Joran's way of covering up the heinous fact that he left a young lady alone on a very dark, scary beach. I don't believe Natalee knew Joran was going to take off like he did with (supposedly) Satish. And certainly Natalee must NOT have asked to remain there. Ludicrous. If any of this story is true (roll eyes), what I believe is that Joran said he was going to the car and would come back - and he NEVER DID.

As Joran described, they took off fast (he attributes this to Satish, but I believe it was Joran. Nevermind the fact that the Kalpoes are denying any part of this supposed beach pick up). What is laughable is the "gentlemanly" version from Joran that he "offered to take her to her hotel." Joran has no idea what the word "gentlemanly" even means. If he did, he wouldn't have taken off knowing he was leaving a girl alone on the beach. His story, like all his other stories, is rife with inconsistencies. Again, this is as if this beach story really happened!

I don't think Natalee was alive at that point to be able to say she "wanted to stay on the beach" and as a matter of logic, nor would she want to stay on a dark, empty, scary beach in a foreign country.

JMO

Well said, HiLife.

Wow, the downfall of a whole country hangs on the shoulder of Joran and family! Unbelievable...and not even an obstruction of justice charge. jmo

[HiLife]

Reportedly, Beth doesn't believe Natalee was at the beach. :shrug:

Appears the authorities do not think so, either. jmo

[HiLife]

Well said, HiLife.

Wow, the downfall of a whole country hangs on the shoulder of Joran and family! Unbelievable...and not even an obstruction of justice charge. jmo
So many victims due to the actions of one or three people. Exactly, even an entire country. Isn't that always the way with these crimes? It is against one person, yet so many suffer the consequences.

jmo

[HiLife]

When someone can come up with something more than what Joran said regarding Natalee, then perhaps I'll take that into consideration when speculating on what could have happened to her...otherwise Joran is a liar that will do and say anything to cover his behind. jmo

To base opinions on Joran's lies is a futile effort. One can only hear them, see the inconsistencies and then try to piece together what actually happened. That so many professionals have professed to not believe Joran's stories is a huge indicator. Even Paulus' boss at the Justice Department, Mr. Jorj, all but publicly stated this by saying they (the Van der Sloots) haven't come forward with the truth yet (paraphrased).

You're right, when someone can verify Joran's (various interchanging) stories, then he will be credible. So far, no one has.

jmo

[ortiga]

Reportedly, Beth doesn't believe Natalee was at the beach. :shrug:

If Beth believes that Joran and Natalee were at the beach, then it opens the door to believing that Natalee played a part in staying at the beach. Then, that same scenario, if believed, reflects back on Beth with the basic, so far unanswered, question of why the girl was sent on that type of vacation in the first place if Beth's characterization of Natalee's inexperience with boys and alcohol is true.

However, choosing other theory, ie that someone (Joran, K2, and who knows how many at the VDS home) did something (gangrape and kill) to Natalee (sex being against her will), then that leaves Beth off the hook.....in her eyes, IMO, everything was done TO Natalee, the girl had no choices, no desires, no "normal teen misbehaving". In this way, Beth bears no part of the responsibility for sending Natalee there, because everything and everybody did something to Natalee against her will.

IMO that is the key to Beth's crusade against Aruba, JK2, etc. If everyone else is "guilty", then she is not.

IMO

[ortiga]

Appears the authorities do not think so, either. jmo


Where does that "appear"? Please elaborate on which "authorities" do not think that Natalee was at the beach.

[ortiga]

Well said, HiLife.

Wow, the downfall of a whole country hangs on the shoulder of Joran and family! Unbelievable...and not even an obstruction of justice charge. jmo


The "downfall of a whole country"?

[HiLife]

<snipped>

Then, that same scenario, if believed, reflects back on Beth with the basic, so far unanswered, question of why the girl was sent on that type of vacation in the first place if Beth's characterization of Natalee's inexperience with boys and alcohol is true.

<snipped>

IMO

This argument is moot. 123 other kids went on that trip, drank, danced and had fun, just like Natalee - yet only ONE person did not return. The one who was with Joran did not return.

There were a hundred other parents whose children went on that trip. To single Beth out for what 123 others did is wrong. Natalee had a right to go on vacation, revel in her accomplishments just like the other 123 did.

Natalee was with the wrong person at the wrong time. Nothing more, nothing less. Neither Beth nor Natalee can be blamed for what a malicious, evil hearted person did to Natalee. It is not the victim's fault.

jmo

[SukiJane]

So many victims due to the actions of one or three people. Exactly, even an entire country. Isn't that always the way with these crimes? It is against one person, yet so many suffer the consequences.

jmo

Exactly HiLife, that is what makes this story so tragic.

ArubaSteve made a comment yesterday that I wanted to respond to, but the thread got closed. Something like throw them to the wolves, save Aruba. I wonder just how many people in Aruba are thinking just that.

By the way I was going to look up some safe travel information, donation free, that Ortiga was promoting...and all I'm getting is Have a Nice Day. weird, i tell ya...lol

jmo

[Heyes]

Good logic there, Suki.

The whole beach story, where Joran CLAIMS he last saw Natalee (after multiple other stories) is fraught with lies. Let's suspend disbelief here for a moment because nothing about his story makes sense.

The whole lie from Joran about Natalee wanting to be left on the beach is just that - yet another Joran lie. To me, it was Joran's way of covering up the heinous fact that he left a young lady alone on a very dark, scary beach. I don't believe Natalee knew Joran was going to take off like he did with (supposedly) Satish. And certainly Natalee must NOT have asked to remain there. Ludicrous. If any of this story is true (roll eyes), what I believe is that Joran said he was going to the car and would come back - and he NEVER DID.

As Joran described, they took off fast (he attributes this to Satish, but I believe it was Joran. Nevermind the fact that the Kalpoes are denying any part of this supposed beach pick up). What is laughable is the "gentlemanly" version from Joran that he "offered to take her to her hotel." Joran has no idea what the word "gentlemanly" even means. If he did, he wouldn't have taken off knowing he was leaving a girl alone on the beach. His story, like all his other stories, is rife with inconsistencies. Again, this is as if this beach story really happened!

I don't think Natalee was alive at that point to be able to say she "wanted to stay on the beach" and as a matter of logic, nor would she want to stay on a dark, empty, scary beach in a foreign country.

JMO

When someone can come up with something more than what Joran said regarding Natalee, then perhaps I'll take that into consideration when speculating on what could have happened to her...otherwise Joran is a liar that will do and say anything to cover his behind. jmo

Hi Life, your post says it all! IMO There is no where else to look. It begins and ends with joran. IMO

Suki I'm with you. When there is someone, anyone that could corroborate jorans stories then all of us would be dicussing these alternatives. IMO

[ortiga]

This argument is moot. 123 other kids went on that trip, drank, danced and had fun, just like Natalee - yet only ONE person did not return. The one who was with Joran did not return.

There were a hundred other parents whose children went on that trip. To single Beth out for what 123 others did is wrong. Natalee had a right to go on vacation, revel in her accomplishments just like the other 123 did.

Natalee was with the wrong person at the wrong time. Nothing more, nothing less. Neither Beth nor Natalee can be blamed for what a malicious, evil hearted person did to Natalee. It is not the victim's fault.

jmo

You don't know that anything was "done" to Natalee.

You don't know, if something was "done" to Natalee, who it was that "did" something, whatever it was that was "done".

Therefore, how can you say that the unknown person, who may have done some unknown thing to Natalee is malicious, evil hearted, etc?

It wouldn't have mattered if 3,000 kids drank and lived it up that night. One or more of them should have noticed what she was doing and concluded that leaving with guys might not be the best decision to make. Then, when she didn't come back, some of those students should have sounded an alarm.

The most reasonable explanation of what happened to Natalee is that she got into the water and her diminished perceptions led to her drowning. But that doesn't make the best sellers list to admit that is a possibility, the one that adheres most closely to Occam's Razor

Sometimes things happen and there is no villain. And, it's not always a guy's fault when "something" happens.

IMO

[HiLife]

Where does that "appear"? Please elaborate on which "authorities" do not think that Natalee was at the beach.

Links are never good enough when given, but I decided to post one anyway.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/48hours/main1430644_page5.shtml

Dompig laid out the latest scenario of what happened after Natalee was last seen driving off with van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers shortly after 1 a.m. He says investigators think the group did not go to the beach but that they possibly brought Natalie back to the van der Sloots' home.

jmo

[No Nic]

If Beth believes that Joran and Natalee were at the beach, then it opens the door to believing that Natalee played a part in staying at the beach. Then, that same scenario, if believed, reflects back on Beth with the basic, so far unanswered, question of why the girl was sent on that type of vacation in the first place if Beth's characterization of Natalee's inexperience with boys and alcohol is true.

However, choosing other theory, ie that someone (Joran, K2, and who knows how many at the VDS home) did something (gangrape and kill) to Natalee (sex being against her will), then that leaves Beth off the hook.....in her eyes, IMO, everything was done TO Natalee, the girl had no choices, no desires, no "normal teen misbehaving". In this way, Beth bears no part of the responsibility for sending Natalee there, because everything and everybody did something to Natalee against her will.

IMO that is the key to Beth's crusade against Aruba, JK2, etc. If everyone else is "guilty", then she is not.

IMO

Beth "bears" no part of the responsibility of what happened to Natalee anymore than the parents of thousands of other teens on this same type vacation bear responsibility for their teens arriving back home safe and sound.

Beth bears no responsibilty because a game Joran had played 20 times before went *bad* this time.

imo

[HiLife]

You don't know that anything was "done" to Natalee.

You don't know, if something was "done" to Natalee, who it was that "did" something, whatever it was that was "done".

Therefore, how can you say that the unknown person, who may have done some unknown thing to Natalee is malicious, evil hearted, etc?

It wouldn't have mattered if 3,000 kids drank and lived it up that night. One or more of them should have noticed what she was doing and concluded that leaving with guys might not be the best decision to make. Then, when she didn't come back, some of those students should have sounded an alarm.

The most reasonable explanation of what happened to Natalee is that she got into the water and her diminished perceptions led to her drowning. But that doesn't make the best sellers list to admit that is a possibility, the one that adheres most closely to Occam's Razor

Sometimes things happen and there is no villain. And, it's not always a guy's fault when "something" happens.

IMO

Well, there is no Natalee. She has disappeared. Occam's Razor is perfect for this story and Joran's involvement. She disappeared and the last known person to have seen her lies and lies and lies. Authorities still don't even know how Joran got home, nevermind many other details that could possibly exonerate him. Joran has given nothing, given nothing that can prove his innocence.

To say Nataleee "magically" disappeared is denying reality.

JMO

[HiLife]

Hi Life, your post says it all! IMO There is no where else to look. It begins and ends with joran. IMO

Suki I'm with you. When there is someone, anyone that could corroborate jorans stories then all of us would be dicussing these alternatives. IMO

Exactly, so, Heyes. Nothing or no one has come forward to verify ANY of Joran's stories - not a shred. Not ONE story has made any sense yet. How difficult is it to tell the truth? Obviously, for Joran, a young lady disappeared is not serious enough to come clean. If he had been truthful, the investigation would have moved on.....but he cannot be truthful, so the investigation stalls over him.

JMO

[ortiga]

To say Nataleee "magically" disappeared is denying reality.

JMO

Of course, we've not seen that said here on the board anyway.

[HiLife]

Exactly HiLife, that is what makes this story so tragic.

ArubaSteve made a comment yesterday that I wanted to respond to, but the thread got closed. Something like throw them to the wolves, save Aruba. I wonder just how many people in Aruba are thinking just that.

By the way I was going to look up some safe travel information, donation free, that Ortiga was promoting...and all I'm getting is Have a Nice Day. weird, i tell ya...lol

jmo

"Have a nice day" (Hey Luke, Got the Bon Jovi youtube for this song? lol!)

So informative, those sites, eh? Beth has found a perfect niche for her and for students and parents who are still naive about travel. I heard they were going to initiate a College Course based on the ISTF ?? University of Alabama (sorry, can't remember off the top of my head). That is quite an honor and testament as to the validity of Beth's organization!

JMO

[Luke Davis]

Exactly HiLife, that is what makes this story so tragic.

ArubaSteve made a comment yesterday that I wanted to respond to, but the thread got closed. Something like throw them to the wolves, save Aruba. I wonder just how many people in Aruba are thinking just that.

By the way I was going to look up some safe travel information, donation free, that Ortiga was promoting...and all I'm getting is Have a Nice Day. weird, i tell ya...lol

jmo

I often get the same thing when going to ITSF because they are updating the site. :shrug:

[SukiJane]

This argument is moot. 123 other kids went on that trip, drank, danced and had fun, just like Natalee - yet only ONE person did not return. The one who was with Joran did not return.

There were a hundred other parents whose children went on that trip. To single Beth out for what 123 others did is wrong. Natalee had a right to go on vacation, revel in her accomplishments just like the other 123 did.

Natalee was with the wrong person at the wrong time. Nothing more, nothing less. Neither Beth nor Natalee can be blamed for what a malicious, evil hearted person did to Natalee. It is not the victim's fault.

jmo

Oh so true. Even if you don't believe Joran had anything to do with Natalee's disappearance...you'd still have to think he's a disgusting piece of you know what just by the fact he refused to tell a family and police where to look for a loved one.

jmo

[ortiga]

Beth "bears" no part of the responsibility of what happened to Natalee anymore than the parents of thousands of other teens on this same type vacation bear responsibility for their teens arriving back home safe and sound.

Beth bears no responsibilty because a game Joran had played 20 times before went *bad* this time.

imo

If Natalee was a virginal teen, one of the "children" as Beth described her and her friends, that knew nothing of boys, never drank, etc. then it is obvious to ME that a vacation of that type should not have been selected for her, with alcohol prepaid in unlimited quantities. Any parent would never forgive themselves, I would think.

The same as Maddy McCann being left in her room....didn't matter that all the parents made the same pitiful decision, and didn't matter that it seemed safe at the time. Different case, similar risky decisions made, IMO, and I would guess that Kate and Jerry will never ever forgive themselves. Does that mean that if she was kidnapped by a porn ring, that it was their fault? No, but the same as Twitty, they contributed to the circumstances that put their children in harm's way, unwittingly or not.

IMO

[HiLife]

Beth "bears" no part of the responsibility of what happened to Natalee anymore than the parents of thousands of other teens on this same type vacation bear responsibility for their teens arriving back home safe and sound.

Beth bears no responsibilty because a game Joran had played 20 times before went *bad* this time.

imo

Almost like a law of odds to some degree.

124 students do the same thing Natalee did, yet the one thing she did different, go with Joran, and she did not return

Joran says he's done this 20 times before (even if he was exaggerating, he still meant he'd done it MANY times), how many times can you do something wrong, before you finally get caught?

JMO

[Luke Davis]

Well, there is no Natalee. She has disappeared. Occam's Razor is perfect for this story and Joran's involvement. She disappeared and the last known person to have seen her lies and lies and lies. Authorities still don't even know how Joran got home, nevermind many other details that could possibly exonerate him. Joran has given nothing, given nothing that can prove his innocence.

To say Nataleee "magically" disappeared is denying reality.

JMO

I thought you said, authorities said,

He says investigators think the group did not go to the beach but that they possibly brought Natalie back to the van der Sloots' home.

That's how he got home.

[HiLife]

Oh so true. Even if you don't believe Joran had anything to do with Natalee's disappearance...you'd still have to think he's a disgusting piece of you know what just by the fact he refused to tell a family and police where to look for a loved one.
jmo
I don't think I will EVER understand this. I can't. I don't know how they live with themselves. I don't think there exists a strong enough word in the English language for that action alone by Joran.

JMO

[ortiga]

Links are never good enough when given, but I decided to post one anyway.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/48hours/main1430644_page5.shtml

Dompig laid out the latest scenario of what happened after Natalee was last seen driving off with van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers shortly after 1 a.m. He says investigators think the group did not go to the beach but that they possibly brought Natalie back to the van der Sloots' home.

jmo

I thought you were referring to the present when you said "Appears the authorities do not think so"

Dompig is long gone, contradicted himself often as others did, and no longer is an "authority".

[HiLife]

I thought you said, authorities said,

He says investigators think the group did not go to the beach but that they possibly brought Natalie back to the van der Sloots' home.

That's how he got home.
LOL - Law Enforcement Investigators are not "authorities." Now, now, Luke.

[Luke Davis]

"Have a nice day" (Hey Luke, Got the Bon Jovi youtube for this song? lol!)

So informative, those sites, eh? Beth has found a perfect niche for her and for students and parents who are still naive about travel. I heard they were going to initiate a College Course based on the ISTF ?? University of Alabama (sorry, can't remember off the top of my head). That is quite an honor and testament as to the validity of Beth's organization!

JMO

HiLife, I think you would make a good speaker for ISTF!

[HiLife]

I thought you were referring to the present when you said "Appears the authorities do not think so"

Dompig is long gone, contradicted himself often as others did, and no longer is an "authority".

Surprise, surprise. You're welcome for the link, anyway. jmo

[ortiga]

Almost like a law of odds to some degree.

124 students do the same thing Natalee did, yet the one thing she did different, go with Joran, and she did not return

Joran says he's done this 20 times before (even if he was exaggerating, he still meant he'd done it MANY times), how many times can you do something wrong, before you finally get caught?

JMO


Please, some accuracy here. Joran did not say he had done something "wrong" 20 times before.

Why should a kid who picks up or gets picked up by a tourist gal consider that "wrong"? Or fear getting "caught"? If there is something wrong with casual bar dates then I fear we have our hands full here in the USA.

IMO

[ortiga]

Oh so true. Even if you don't believe Joran had anything to do with Natalee's disappearance...you'd still have to think he's a disgusting piece of you know what just by the fact he refused to tell a family and police where to look for a loved one.

jmo

No, I don't think Joran is a "disgusting piece of you know what". And, I also don't think that of Beth Twitty, FEB, or the step cousins. I just don't think in those terms.

[HiLife]

Please, some accuracy here. Joran did not say he had done something "wrong" 20 times before.

Why should a kid who picks up or gets picked up by a tourist gal consider that "wrong"? Or fear getting "caught"? If there is something wrong with casual bar dates then I fear we have our hands full here in the USA.

IMO

It's when the girl does not come back after being with the guy when it gets "sticky." If it was "casual" - then why so many, many, many lies? You'll find a lot of these stories on CTV's Forensic Files program. Classic.

Nope, not like the "usual" bar dates at all.

JMO

[Luke Davis]

LOL - Law Enforcement Investigators are not "authorities." Now, now, Luke.:confused: Law Enforcement Investigators think Joran went home and "authorities" think he went to the beach?

Beth agrees with Law Enforcement Investigators?

It gets so confusing.:confused:

[HiLife]

Running out to do errands! BBL, :seeya:

[Heyes]

Oh so true. Even if you don't believe Joran had anything to do with Natalee's disappearance...you'd still have to think he's a disgusting piece of you know what just by the fact he refused to tell a family and police where to look for a loved one.
jmo
There's only one reason for his attitude and lies when Natalee's family showed up, only one.
imo

[ortiga]

It's when the girl does not come back after being with the guy when it gets "sticky." If it was "casual" - then why so many, many, many lies? You'll find a lot of these stories on CTV's Forensic Files program. Classic.

Nope, not like the "usual" bar dates at all.

JMO

The "casual" description refers to guys and gals leaving bars together when they hardly know each other, and making out afterwards. To put it nicely for the board.

The lies were understandable, he had no idea she hadn't hooked up with someone else... and, you know....maybe she DID.

I don't think it makes any sense to get stuck in that gear, we all know the boys lied, it makes more sense to me to examine the behavior of people we know have lied, but still have not explained why.

IMO

[SukiJane]

No, I don't think Joran is a "disgusting piece of you know what".
(snipped)
I just don't think in those terms.

Well I do, relating to a mother asking a young man that might have information on the whereabouts of my daughter, and he lies...Heck, I'd be ticked off if Joran had information on where my dog might be, and he lied...yeah disgusting piece of you know what, fits him to a tee!

No one here defends Joran, remember?

jmo

[ortiga]

There's only one reason for his attitude and lies when Natalee's family showed up, only one.
imo


I often wonder how it might have been if Dave had been able to speak with Joran before the Fab 7. Oh, I just remembered, he wasn't notified that his daughter was missing until the jet was safely in the air.

That's why I wouldn't say Natalee's "family" showed up there that night.

IMO

[ortiga]

Well I do, relating to a mother asking a young man that might have information on the whereabouts of my daughter, and he lies...Heck, I'd be ticked off if Joran had information on where my dog might be, and he lied...yeah disgusting piece of you know what, fits him to a tee!

No one here defends Joran, remember?

jmo

Defense of a suspect is not the same thing as not thinking they are "a disgusting piece of you know what".

[SukiJane]

(snipped)

The lies were understandable, he had no idea she hadn't hooked up with someone else... and, you know....maybe she DID.

(snipped)

IMO

The lies are not understandable, at all...you're right if he did leave her on the beach, he had no idea what could have happened to her...all the more reason to tell investigators asap where the last place he saw Natalee alive was. Ughhh, he makes me sick!

jmo

[Grandad]

Links are never good enough when given, but I decided to post one anyway.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/48hours/main1430644_page5.shtml

Dompig laid out the latest scenario of what happened after Natalee was last seen driving off with van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers shortly after 1 a.m. He says investigators think the group did not go to the beach but that they possibly brought Natalie back to the van der Sloots' home.

jmo

Strange that you're lobbying for people to believe J2K are kidnappers, rapists and murderers, but you link to a statement in which your source says they believe Natalee died accidentally, and goes on to say, "We’re not talking about killers here."

[ortiga]

In Beth's book she describes all the help she got from her son Matt, who provided many phone numbers to the women while they were in the car driving so fast. She mentions that Matt said, paraphrased, "this is important, you've got to call the FBI". (quotes for readability, not to indicate actual words). So, then, Matt apparently knew right then between 11 am and 12, that the FBI was being contacted, etc. Actually I think she says that Matt was calling the FBI in Birmingham.

Then, we have heard that Dave finally heard from Matt later on that afternoon or evening, that Natalee was missing, and this was after the plane was in the air. I believe that Beth said she left on the plane at 5 pm.

Does this strike anyone else as being quite....curious? Why did Matt not call his dad if indeed he thought it was serious enough to call the FBI?

Who told Matt not to call his Dad? Why? Are we supposed to believe that the subject did not come up between Beth and Matt?

[HiLife]

The "casual" description refers to guys and gals leaving bars together when they hardly know each other, and making out afterwards. To put it nicely for the board.

The lies were understandable, he had no idea she hadn't hooked up with someone else... and, you know....maybe she DID.

I don't think it makes any sense to get stuck in that gear, we all know the boys lied, it makes more sense to me to examine the behavior of people we know have lied, but still have not explained why.

IMO
I knew exactly what you meant by "casual" - and I still ask, if it was casual, why lie and lie and lie? This happens over and over on the real life CTV programs. It is a classic. And the ending is the same. The girl is usually sexually assaulted and murdered. It happens over and over.

If it is as you say, that he thought she'd "hooked up with someone else," then why not be honest? Send ALE and the frantic parents to the place he had allegedly left her? He didn't, because he knew she couldn't have "hooked up with someone else."

I can't even say he callously left her there on a dark, empty, scary beach to fend for herself (and this is the best of circumstances) because this doesn't even make sense. I don't believe it happened.

We do have to be "stuck in this gear" because Joran STILL has NOT explained his lies. What lies has he explained? And how does Joran explain lies.....with more lies?

How did Joran get home? Who picked him up, really? We don't need to hear from people who were nowhere near the Island of Aruba when Natalee disappeared - we need to hear the truth from those who last saw her and are still lying. This is what makes more sense to me.

jmo

[HiLife]

The lies are not understandable, at all...you're right if he did leave her on the beach, he had no idea what could have happened to her...all the more reason to tell investigators asap where the last place he saw Natalee alive was. Ughhh, he makes me sick!

jmo

But...but....Joran has explained his lies. I can't even wrap my mind around a statement like that. Oh, ok. Thanks for "explaining," Joran. Now on to blame the mother for everything. :rolleyes:

None of their stories jive, they all contradict each other. No one has given a straight (truthful) story that can be believed by ALE (or anyone else). It is a crying shame what they did to this case (or rather, didn't do).

Notice also, Joran only admitted the HI lie DAYS afterwards.....he didn't have an attack of conscience or remorse for sending the parents off on a wild goose chase. If there was any hope of finding Natalee, he made sure it was gone. He only admitted the lie when he found out the tapes showed NOTHING of what they had described about the mythical HI drop-off.

The BEST scenario (and that's not saying much!) you can say about this is: If Joran had nothing to do with Natalee's disappearance, he misled the investigation and further endangered her life and/or did not have the decency (understatement) to allow her parents to find her in the most crucial first hours.

The depth of the cruelty of his lies just reinforces to me that he was covering up something very big. I have a hard time believing a human being can be so cruel if he were innocent.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

I knew exactly what you meant by "casual" - and I still ask, if it was casual, why lie and lie and lie? This happens over and over on the real life CTV programs. It is a classic.

If it is as you say, that he thought she'd "hooked up with someone else," then why not be honest? Send ALE and the frantic parents to the place he had allegedly left her? He didn't, because he knew she couldn't have "hooked up with someone else."

I can't even say he callously left her there on a dark, empty, scary beach to fend for herself (and this is the best of circumstances) because this doesn't even make sense. I don't believe it happened.

We do have to be "stuck in this gear" because Joran STILL has NOT explained his lies. What lies has he explained? And how does Joran explain lies.....with more lies?

How did Joran get home? Who picked him up, really? We don't need to hear from people who were nowhere near the Island of Aruba when Natalee disappeared - we need to hear the truth from those who last saw her and are still lying. This is what makes more sense to me.

jmo

At this point, few would trust the truth from Joran if they heard it. The same can be said for the Kalpoe brothers. That's why my last hopes lie with the Kalpoe lawsuit.

As with others, I have a hard time trusting anyone in this case. Reportedly, Thomas was describing Joran to Beth. But the MB boys scuffled with Joran and got a real close look at him...err...oops...that was GVC. I don't know that everyone had a REASON to lie. Some may have not been paying attention. Some may have been trying too hard to be helpful. Some may have been tired, drunk, drugged or otherwise impaired.

Mostly, I tend to trust those most who aren't biased. But they are a rare find. Early on, I felt Aruban witnesses could be trusted but then things changed. Still the statements by staff of CnC seem reasonable and not contradicted.

I don't believe everything LE says, because they are allowed to lie as a strategy. I rarely believe suspects. In this case, it is difficult to believe some witnesses.

[HiLife]

At this point, few would trust the truth from Joran if they heard it. The same can be said for the Kalpoe brothers. That's why my last hopes lie with the Kalpoe lawsuit.

As with others, I have a hard time trusting anyone in this case. Reportedly, Thomas was describing Joran to Beth. But the MB boys scuffled with Joran and got a real close look at him...err...oops...that was GVC. I don't know that everyone had a REASON to lie. Some may have not been paying attention. Some may have been trying too hard to be helpful. Some may have been tired, drunk, drugged or otherwise impaired.

Mostly, I tend to trust those most who aren't biased. But they are a rare find. Early on, I felt Aruban witnesses could be trusted but then things changed. Still the statements by staff of CnC seem reasonable and not contradicted.

I don't believe everything LE says, because they are allowed to lie as a strategy. I rarely believe suspects. In this case, it is difficult to believe some witnesses.

I agree with your post 100% and can see why you feel the Kalpoe suit is important. It just may be the last chance to hear further/deeper about this case before the window of opportunity is forever slammed shut by the dreaded words: COLD CASE.

I don't see the "witnesses" as lying, per se. Your reasons (highlighted) are all very probable and valid.

Everyone seems to have something to gain - the reasons run the gamut from self-preservation to 15 minutes of fame to protecting others, to protecting a tourism industry.

Isn't this usually what happens when a case drags on? Everyone loses credibility. It's even happening in the McCann case, where NO ONE is being found credible. Each day that passes, is another disappointing betrayal of trust - in the media, in LE, in the parents.

JMO

[fairmaiden]

In Beth's book she describes all the help she got from her son Matt, who provided many phone numbers to the women while they were in the car driving so fast. She mentions that Matt said, paraphrased, "this is important, you've got to call the FBI". (quotes for readability, not to indicate actual words). So, then, Matt apparently knew right then between 11 am and 12, that the FBI was being contacted, etc. Actually I think she says that Matt was calling the FBI in Birmingham.

Then, we have heard that Dave finally heard from Matt later on that afternoon or evening, that Natalee was missing, and this was after the plane was in the air. I believe that Beth said she left on the plane at 5 pm.

Does this strike anyone else as being quite....curious? Why did Matt not call his dad if indeed he thought it was serious enough to call the FBI?

Who told Matt not to call his Dad? Why? Are we supposed to believe that the subject did not come up between Beth and Matt?

ortiga .... I've always thought it was curious that Dave wasn't called. I think when it came to something serious enough that the FBI was being contacted, apparently, he would have been one of the FIRST people called. Whether or not they had a contentious relationship, this was his daughter !! Just another one of those curious things I've always wondered about.

JMO

[No Nic]

I agree with your post 100% and can see why you feel the Kalpoe suit is important. It just may be the last chance to hear further/deeper about this case before the window of opportunity is forever slammed shut by the dreaded words: COLD CASE.

I don't see the "witnesses" as lying, per se. Your reasons (highlighted) are all very probable and valid.

Everyone seems to have something to gain - the reasons run the gamut from self-preservation to 15 minutes of fame to protecting others, to protecting a tourism industry.

Isn't this usually what happens when a case drags on? Everyone loses credibility. It's even happening in the McCann case, where NO ONE is being found credible. Each day that passes, is another disappointing betrayal of trust - in the media, in LE, in the parents.

JMO

I would also like to see the Kalpoe lawsuit go forward, but it looks as if K2 do not want to comply with the judges orders.

http://homepage.mac.com/mcgraw.kalpoe.docs/.Public/Kalpoe_v_McGraw/1004def_motion.pdf

And, K2 is asking for a motion to stay the order of discovery until they are no longer suspects in the kidnap, rape and murder of Natalee Holloway.

http://homepage.mac.com/mcgraw.kalpoe.docs/.Public/Kalpoe_v_McGraw/1004def_motion.pdf

Dueling motions, lol. Why didn't K2 just wait until they were released before bringing this lawsuit. Dollar signs in their eyes?? Thought Dr. Phil would settle?? Ha-Ha, were they ever WRONG !!!

imo

[Luke Davis]

I would also like to see the Kalpoe lawsuit go forward, but it looks as if K2 do not want to comply with the judges orders.

http://homepage.mac.com/mcgraw.kalpoe.docs/.Public/Kalpoe_v_McGraw/1004def_motion.pdf

And, K2 is asking for a motion to stay the order of discovery until they are no longer suspects in the kidnap, rape and murder of Natalee Holloway.

http://homepage.mac.com/mcgraw.kalpoe.docs/.Public/Kalpoe_v_McGraw/1004def_motion.pdf

Dueling motions, lol. Why didn't K2 just wait until they were released before bringing this lawsuit. Dollar signs in their eyes?? Thought Dr. Phil would settle?? Ha-Ha, were they ever WRONG !!!

imo

Statute of limitations.

[No Nic]

Statute of limitations.

What is the statute of limitations for a lawsuit like this in California, Luke? Was it getting close? Thanks.

[HiLife]

I would also like to see the Kalpoe lawsuit go forward, but it looks as if K2 do not want to comply with the judges orders.

http://homepage.mac.com/mcgraw.kalpoe.docs/.Public/Kalpoe_v_McGraw/1004def_motion.pdf

And, K2 is asking for a motion to stay the order of discovery until they are no longer suspects in the kidnap, rape and murder of Natalee Holloway.

http://homepage.mac.com/mcgraw.kalpoe.docs/.Public/Kalpoe_v_McGraw/1004def_motion.pdf

Dueling motions, lol. Why didn't K2 just wait until they were released before bringing this lawsuit. Dollar signs in their eyes?? Thought Dr. Phil would settle?? Ha-Ha, were they ever WRONG !!!

imo

Boy, I'm still not done reading this, NN. Thanks for posting it. Seems the Kalpoes do not want to produce proof. Have they ruled about dismissal yet? When will that be?

And yeah. Wonder how long the Statute of Limitations is, as Luke suggested coud be a reason. It had always puzzled me as to why their lawyers felt they could win, while they were still murder suspects? Your suggestion makes sense that they probably thought Dr. Phil would fold and settle for a HUGE amount. I don't think they realized what a hornet's nest they stirred up for their clients - and even Joran.

WHERE are those statements? Where is Joran's 1st statement that Paulus alluded to in his statement - a statement Joran had signed. I'm sure there is much we haven't seen.

Back to reading your links.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

What is the statute of limitations for a lawsuit like this in California, Luke? Was it getting close? Thanks.

Libel / Slander / Defamation: 1 year.

Expert Law (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/limitations_by_state/California.html)

I'm not sure when the clock started running. The show, the promotions, the boycott, etc.

[Grandad]

At this point, few would trust the truth from Joran if they heard it. The same can be said for the Kalpoe brothers. That's why my last hopes lie with the Kalpoe lawsuit.

<snip>

One way or another the case will be closed by the end of the year. Shortly after that lawsuits will be filed.

Some will be settled quietly and quickly, as in the Condit case, but some defendants may not be able to afford to settle, so some cases will go to trial.

We'll probably learn a great deal that has been hidden until now.

[HiLife]

Libel / Slander / Defamation: 1 year.

Expert Law (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/limitations_by_state/California.html)

I'm not sure when the clock started running. The show, the promotions, the boycott, etc.

I was going to ask....one year, starting from when? Interesting. What a mess this all is. Do you know the next court date? What about the dismissal Dr.Phil is seeking?

jmo

[HiLife]

I would also like to see the Kalpoe lawsuit go forward, but it looks as if K2 do not want to comply with the judges orders.

http://homepage.mac.com/mcgraw.kalpoe.docs/.Public/Kalpoe_v_McGraw/1004def_motion.pdf

And, K2 is asking for a motion to stay the order of discovery until they are no longer suspects in the kidnap, rape and murder of Natalee Holloway.

http://homepage.mac.com/mcgraw.kalpoe.docs/.Public/Kalpoe_v_McGraw/1004def_motion.pdf

Dueling motions, lol. Why didn't K2 just wait until they were released before bringing this lawsuit. Dollar signs in their eyes?? Thought Dr. Phil would settle?? Ha-Ha, were they ever WRONG !!!

imo

Someone was asleep at the Motion. Maybe the Kalpoe American attorneys don't like working for free? They did not produce discovery, and then filed the day AFTER the deadline to produce discovery to stay this until January 2008.

I'd sure like to see some of those things Dr.Phil is requesting from the Kalpoes!

Looks like their Aruban attorney, Koch, is also roadblocking this by saying that for the Kalpoe's sake, he'll not produce any documents, even if asked. Looks like plenty of grounds for dismissal. And Dr. Phils attorneys are asking for their attorneys fees to paid, to boot! LOL!

JMO

[No Nic]

Someone was asleep at the Motion. Maybe the Kalpoe American attorneys don't like working for free? They did not produce discovery, and then filed the day AFTER the deadline to produce discovery to stay this until January 2008.

I'd sure like to see some of those things Dr.Phil is requesting from the Kalpoes!

Looks like their Aruban attorney, Koch, is also roadblocking this by saying that for the Kalpoe's sake, he'll not produce any documents, even if asked. Looks like plenty of grounds for dismissal. And Dr. Phils attorneys are asking for their attorneys fees to paid, to boot! LOL!

JMO

Yeah, like the K2 would ever pay if that was ordered. Dang, I was actually looking forward to them getting on the stand in Ca. Wouldn't those transcripts be a good read. Doesn't look good for K2, again.

imo

[Luke Davis]

I was going to ask....one year, starting from when? Interesting. What a mess this all is. Do you know the next court date? What about the dismissal Dr.Phil is seeking?

jmo
Normally, the clock starts ticking when the plaintiff becomes aware. Deepak wasn't aware when he was secretly taped.

[HiLife]

Yeah, like the K2 would ever pay if that was ordered. Dang, I was actually looking forward to them getting on the stand in Ca. Wouldn't those transcripts be a good read. Doesn't look good for K2, again.

imo
I'm shaking my head over their American attorney missing the deadline.

jmo

[HiLife]

Normally, the clock starts ticking when the plaintiff becomes aware. Deepak wasn't aware when he was secretly taped.
So, in that case, he would have been aware when it was played on the Dr. Phil show, right? Can't remember when that was.

Btw, thanks for your info.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Rocky Talk (http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/rockytalklive/archives/2007/10/loving_natalee_beth_holloway_t.html)

Beth Holloway, Natalee's mother, has written a book about the case, Loving Natalee, and will discuss the book and her recent return trip to Aruba during an online discussion at 10 a.m. Friday

[Luke Davis]

So, in that case, he would have been aware when it was played on the Dr. Phil show, right? Can't remember when that was.

Btw, thanks for your info.

jmoThen or shortly after. Don't know if that is shown in Aruba. Of course, before it was shown Beth was saying Deepak admitted they all raped Natalee.

[No Nic]

So, in that case, he would have been aware when it was played on the Dr. Phil show, right? Can't remember when that was.

Btw, thanks for your info.

jmo

From what I could find, the Dr. Phil show aired on 9/15/05.

imo

[HiLife]

From what I could find, the Dr. Phil show aired on 9/15/05.

imo

Oh, ok. And then they filed in January 2007? Is this correct?

[No Nic]

Oh, ok. And then they filed in January 2007? Is this correct?

Here is a link from Dec. 15, 2006, so it must have been around then.

http://www.eonline.com/news/article/index.jsp?uuid=842d5b63-98c9-4603-8e5e-b8c93c596c2d

[Luke Davis]

Oh, ok. And then they filed in January 2007? Is this correct?IIRC they filed December 13, 2006 but they had been in secret negotiations for three months. Sounds to me they intended to file suit on September 13, 2006. If the show aired on September 15, 2005, that cut it pretty close.

[No Nic]

IIRC they filed December 13, 2006 but they had been in secret negotiations for three months. Sounds to me they intended to file suit on September 13, 2006. If the show aired on September 15, 2005, that cut it pretty close.

Yeah, pretty close. It's 2 years in my state.

[HiLife]

Here is a link from Dec. 15, 2006, so it must have been around then.

http://www.eonline.com/news/article/index.jsp?uuid=842d5b63-98c9-4603-8e5e-b8c93c596c2d

IIRC they filed December 13, 2006 but they had been in secret negotiations for three months. Sounds to me they intended to file suit on September 13, 2006. If the show aired on September 15, 2005, that cut it pretty close.

OK, guys, so what does this mean? That December 13, 2006 will be the one year deadline. So they're asking for a stay until January 2008.

But first they need to resolve the "not producing the discovery in a timely manner." It could be dismissed.

jmo

[ArubaSteve]

Suki.....I guess I didn't explain myself well. What I meant by "throw them to the wolves to save Aruba" is that people want to throw suspects to the wolves without any evidence just to be done with it. Aruba will not do that. No matter how long it takes Aruba I believe feels that it needs proper evidence and they do not have it. Obviously it would be easier for Aruba to just find them guilty, throw them in jail and be over with it and the bad press. But that is not legal and all should agree unless we want to railroad every suspect just to put this saga to bed. Please show me evidence of a crime. Not opinion, but evidence that should convict a human being of kidnapping, rape, and murder and relegate them to life in prison or worse. Being the last person to see someone alive is not evidence in itself of a crime. Giving them a ride is not evidence of a crime. Taking them to their home and having consensual sex is not evidence of a crime. Drinking and dancing in a bar is not evidence of a crime. Walking on the beach is not evidence of a crime. People lie for various reasons especially 17 year old boys necking with 18 year old girls. It doesn't mean they are guilty of anything. For heavens sake guys.....Is there ANY evidence?

[ortiga]

ortiga .... I've always thought it was curious that Dave wasn't called. I think when it came to something serious enough that the FBI was being contacted, apparently, he would have been one of the FIRST people called. Whether or not they had a contentious relationship, this was his daughter !! Just another one of those curious things I've always wondered about.

JMO

In the book she states specifically that Matt said (quotes for readability) "Mom this is serious we have to get the FBI".

If that is TRUE, which I doubt, then it is unforgivable that Dad was not told.

Is Matt that kind of kid that would keep his Dad out of the loop? Boy, I'd hate to think so. Obvious to me that he was told by Twitty not to let Dave know, because she wanted to get Natalee out without Dave finding out.

That leaves just one or 2 possibilities

1) Beth did not think it was serious, thought as Jug thought that it was not serious. (she says that in the book, Jug did not want to go to Aruba at first)

2) She's a liar, this is a given, but here I refer to her quote from her son. Would she go so far as to tell the "world" that it was MATT that thought it was so serious?

It's not just curious, it's just plain dirty, IMO, that if she thought it was serious, she did not even tell Natalee's father.

IMO

[terrysdoor]

In the book she states specifically that Matt said (quotes for readability) "Mom this is serious we have to get the FBI".

If that is TRUE, which I doubt, then it is unforgivable that Dad was not told.

Is Matt that kind of kid that would keep his Dad out of the loop? Boy, I'd hate to think so. Obvious to me that he was told by Twitty not to let Dave know, because she wanted to get Natalee out without Dave finding out.

That leaves just one or 2 possibilities

1) Beth did not think it was serious, thought as Jug thought that it was not serious. (she says that in the book, Jug did not want to go to Aruba at first)

2) She's a liar, this is a given, but here I refer to her quote from her son. Would she go so far as to tell the "world" that it was MATT that thought it was so serious?

It's not just curious, it's just plain dirty, IMO, that if she thought it was serious, she did not even tell Natalee's father.

IMO

Good morning everybody......... Ortiga i have always found it odd also IIRC in Dave`s book he says when he called to check the airlines Natalee`s flight had been rebooked and that is why he didn`t get there as soon and obviously Beth was not keeping him informed because he did not know which police station to go to also IIRC in his book it is Dave that was told to wait on the corn flakes and shave like i said IIRC IMO

[HiLife]

<snipped>
It's not just curious, it's just plain dirty, IMO, that if she thought it was serious, she did not even tell Natalee's father.

<snipped>

IMO

What I think constitutes "dirty" is having to walk across flowing raw sewage and toilet paper to get into a laundrymat, like is described in the book.

jmo

[ortiga]

Good morning everybody......... Ortiga i have always found it odd also IIRC in Dave`s book he says when he called to check the airlines Natalee`s flight had been rebooked and that is why he didn`t get there as soon and obviously Beth was not keeping him informed because he did not know which police station to go to also IIRC in his book it is Dave that was told to wait on the corn flakes and shave like i said IIRC IMO


That's hilarious. So she appropriated the story for her own use? I don't remember that Dave and Beth ever went to the police station together.

It's obvious that Beth thought Natalee had run off with the blue eyed Dutch Boy, and because Dave was not in favor of the trip in the first place, Beth was trying to hide it all from Dave.

IMO

[ortiga]

What I think constitutes "dirty" is having to walk across flowing raw sewage and toilet paper to get into a laundrymat, like is described in the book.

jmo


Was that after the hotels quit comping her?

Does she warn people about the raw sewage in the streets in her ISTF site?

I think you have to take Beth's "stories" with a huge grain of salt.

[JustMyOpinion]

Is there ANY evidence?

Yes, there was sufficient evidence to prolong the detentions of the Kalpoes & Joran, and to re-detain the Kalpoes, IMO. Joran and the Kalpoes have been unsuccessful in court bids to be officially removed as suspects or to have the case officially closed. ( which indicates the Prosecutor has enough evidence to prolong the investigation) IMO.
I do not know what the Dutch investigators found in the search of the van der Sloot property, it could take a long time to process what was collected, IMO.
IF Natalee's body was disposed of at great depths in the ocean, it will take specialized equipment to locate a container and any skeletal remains, IMO. According to Dave Holloway, the FBI was prepared to bring in the necessary equipment in Oct 2005, but Aruba would not authorize it.
I don't know if Tim Miller and volunteers with necessary equipment will be allowed to conduct this search, or if Aruba will fund this type of search before the Prosecutor's deadline to bring a summation or close the case. ( which is reported to be by the end of Dec 2007).
I doubt there will be a successful prosecution of any suspect for involvement in the serious crimes alleged. Paulus van der Sloot was right: No body..no case.
I think this investigation was corrupted from the outset, and it doesn't appear to me that Minister of Justice Rudy Croes has any intention of cooperating with authorities in the Netherlands. JMO.

[terrysdoor]

That's hilarious. So she appropriated the story for her own use? I don't remember that Dave and Beth ever went to the police station together.

It's obvious that Beth thought Natalee had run off with the blue eyed Dutch Boy, and because Dave was not in favor of the trip in the first place, Beth was trying to hide it all from Dave.

IMO

i don`t believe they went together either IIRC in Dave`s book he went to several before going to the right one and meeting Dennis Jacobs and this is when Dennis ask Dave how much money he had and Dave let him know that it was the other family with the money now i read Dave`s book last year so this is simply IIRC IMO

[ortiga]

While the investigation is ongoing only those who had no obvious connection have been released as suspects, which is Paul v.d. Sloot and one of the SGs.

If anything incriminating had been found on the v.d. Sloot property there would have been very little time spent re-arresting Joran. Since the arrest hasn't happened, we will have to conclude that either the evidence doesn't exist or KLPD is also corrupt. :rolleyes:

I haven't heard that Timmy Miller wasn't allowed to conduct another investigation. I have read that he wouldn't get any further cooperation from ALE or government officials. But then Timmy has been threatening to go back to Aruba, with or without ships for the last 2 yrs. I guess more important investigations are demanding his time.

Corrupt? Since the only word of possible corruption comes from Jossy and his posse, who has his eyes on a government ruled by his family, I think we can take the "corruption" with a large sack of salt. Sadly enough it plays right into beth's (and hangers-on) hands.

IMO

Of course. AND, Dave never said that the FBI was prepared to bring in the necessary equipment in Oct 2005, but Aruba would not authorize it.

That just gets posted over and over.

IMO

[HiLife]

<snipped>

I haven't heard that Timmy Miller wasn't allowed to conduct another investigation.

<snipped>

IMO

"Timmy" Miller.

jmo

[JustMyOpinion]

If anything incriminating had been found on the v.d. Sloot property there would have been very little time spent re-arresting Joran. Since the arrest hasn't happened, we will have to conclude that either the evidence doesn't exist or KLPD is also corrupt. :rolleyes:



IMO

Who is we?
I don't think KLPD is corrupt, and I think they are conducting as thorough an investigation as is possible under the circumstances, and I doubt Joran would be arrested unless the prosecutor is ready to go forward with a summation to court. JMO

[Heyes]

Suki.....I guess I didn't explain myself well. What I meant by "throw them to the wolves to save Aruba" is that people want to throw suspects to the wolves without any evidence just to be done with it. Aruba will not do that. No matter how long it takes Aruba I believe feels that it needs proper evidence and they do not have it. Obviously it would be easier for Aruba to just find them guilty, throw them in jail and be over with it and the bad press. But that is not legal and all should agree unless we want to railroad every suspect just to put this saga to bed. Please show me evidence of a crime. Not opinion, but evidence that should convict a human being of kidnapping, rape, and murder and relegate them to life in prison or worse. Being the last person to see someone alive is not evidence in itself of a crime. Giving them a ride is not evidence of a crime. Taking them to their home and having consensual sex is not evidence of a crime. Drinking and dancing in a bar is not evidence of a crime. Walking on the beach is not evidence of a crime. People lie for various reasons especially 17 year old boys necking with 18 year old girls. It doesn't mean they are guilty of anything. For heavens sake guys.....Is there ANY evidence?

So where are the obstruction of justice charges that they absolutely should charge paulus, anita, joran and the kalpoes with? Or is lying to police and obstructing an investigation perfectly acceptable on aruba?
imo

[HiLife]

So where are the obstruction of justice charges that they absolutely should charge paulus, anita, joran and the kalpoes with? Or is lying to police and obstructing an investigation perfectly acceptable on aruba?
imo

Absolutely, Heyes. They are despicable for the least of what they have done.

I'm still wondering, if there is "no corruption" on the Happy Island, what the U.S. Vice-Consul was doing at the Van der Sloot house on the day Joran was to be released from prison? Very fishy, indeed.

jmo

[Heyes]

Absolutely, Heyes. They are despicable for the least of what they have done.

I'm still wondering, if there is "no corruption" on the Happy Island, what the U.S. Vice-Consul was doing at the Van der Sloot house on the day Joran was to be released from prison? Very fishy, indeed.

jmo
The fact that these suspects were never charged with obstruction of justice just baffles the mind.They even accused two innocent men who found themselves falsely imprisoned. Ale drops the ball again! IMO
Regarding the Vice-Consol, that is strange. What happened at that meeting? I just can't see what they would be doing there. I know part of there job is to look after our citzens but what did they hope to accomplish by dealing with the vandersloots? There must be a ton of info about this case that hasn't been released to the public.

[ortiga]

So where are the obstruction of justice charges that they absolutely should charge paulus, anita, joran and the kalpoes with? Or is lying to police and obstructing an investigation perfectly acceptable on aruba?
imo

Maybe you have to have a crime to have obstruction of justice.

[HiLife]

The fact that these suspects were never charged with obstruction of justice just baffles the mind.They even accused two innocent men who found themselves falsely imprisoned. Ale drops the ball again! IMO
Regarding the Vice-Consol, that is strange. What happened at that meeting? I just can't see what they would be doing there. I know part of there job is to look after our citzens but what did they hope to accomplish by dealing with the vandersloots? There must be a ton of info about this case that hasn't been released to the public.

Thinking about it, maybe the U.S. Vice-consul was there at the behest of the other island's "authorities" or maybe sent to give Paulus a message. Right, No meetings with the actual American citizens they are supposed to be watching out for, the Holloway/Twitty family? No one in the VDS family is an American citizen.

Remember, it was a judge (was he over in Curacao?) who decided to go against what the judge in Aruba ordered. Also, weren't the judges in Aruba assigned by authorities in Curacao? And isn't the U.S. COnsulate there, as well?

FISHY!

jmo

eta - oh yeah.....and those poor, railroaded SGs! They were on top of them faster than a blink of the eye! Yet anything to do with the VDS, they dragged their feet.

[Luke Davis]

Beth on Radio (http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/rockytalklive/archives/2007/10/loving_natalee_beth_holloway_t.html)

The transcript is not ready but there are some interesting questions and comments. Some similar to our discussion.

Congressional investigation?

Car similar to Deepak's?

Deepak's statement time?

TES search?

Kevin Broday?

Psychics?

etc?

[ortiga]

Beth on Radio (http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/rockytalklive/archives/2007/10/loving_natalee_beth_holloway_t.html)

The transcript is not ready but there are some interesting questions and comments. Some similar to our discussion.

Congressional investigation?

Car similar to Deepak's?

Deepak's statement time?

TES search?

Kevin Broday?

Psychics?

etc?


Hilarious. After spending 2 or more years saying the FBI never got involved, she says the FBI is happy with the information that came from the students and parents. What a deceptive deceptive person she is.

Gosh, I just HAD to go to my TV interview, and will miss 40 minutes of the questions. Thanks ever so much for being interested. :rolleyes:

IMO

[ArubaSteve]

Heyes.... I'm looking for the evidence for kidnap, rape, murder, and body disposal that BHT claims she has. If people lied than they should be charged with lying if it affected the investigation. If there is evidence of any of the crimes above and persons charged, than they as well should pay the price.

[ortiga]

The fact that these suspects were never charged with obstruction of justice just baffles the mind.They even accused two innocent men who found themselves falsely imprisoned. Ale drops the ball again! IMO
Regarding the Vice-Consol, that is strange. What happened at that meeting? I just can't see what they would be doing there. I know part of there job is to look after our citzens but what did they hope to accomplish by dealing with the vandersloots? There must be a ton of info about this case that hasn't been released to the public.

The suspects would never have been in jail in the US, and Twitty very well might have been fined a great deal of money for her public comments seemingly as judge and jury. You can't just pick the parts you like from each legal system and call it Twitty's Law.

IMO

[ArubaSteve]

I doubt that there is anyone on this board that would want to see themselves or their children charged with crimes for which there is no hard.....very hard evidence. Why should it be different in Aruba?

[ortiga]

Heyes.... I'm looking for the evidence for kidnap, rape, murder, and body disposal that BHT claims she has. If people lied than they should be charged with lying if it affected the investigation. If there is evidence of any of the crimes above and persons charged, than they as well should pay the price.


That is very true, Steve. There is no evidence, yet she tried her best to get them railroaded for heinous crimes. I only wish she had tried that with US suspects, I would have liked to have seen the gag order. She definitely affected the investigation in a negative way and should be charged with obstruction, IMO.

But then you know about that grieving mother free pass she got and still apparently has.

IMO

[ortiga]

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/rockytalklive/archives/2007/10/loving_natalee_beth_holloway_t.html

Here are the questions that SHOULD have been asked, but she wouldn't take them, "had to go to a TV interview", when there was up to 2 hours originally scheduled for her events at Rocky Mountain talk.

I wonder why she left early? :rolleyes:

[fairmaiden]

That is very true, Steve. There is no evidence, yet she tried her best to get them railroaded for heinous crimes. I only wish she had tried that with US suspects, I would have liked to have seen the gag order. She definitely affected the investigation in a negative way and should be charged with obstruction, IMO.

But then you know about that griev