Discussion Thread 2007 (Part 4)

[Luke Davis]

It does, doesn't it Luke ?? Like I said .... I can't imagine why this Island was chosen as a vacation spot for 140 kids with NO chaperones ....

JMOOh, look, another one escaped Aruba.



Martinez spent eight weeks in Aruba covering the disappearance of Natalee Holloway for WBRC, Fox News Channel and CNN, often landing exclusive interviews. Her reports were picked up worldwide, and upon her return from Aruba, she continued to work as a frequent contributor to Fox News Channel.

http://cbs2chicago.com/bios/mai.martinez.wbbm.9.291745.html

http://image.cbslocal.com/175x131/mai_martinez2.jpg

[Luke Davis]

Thanks, I hadn't heard that. But why would that be important? Was the daughter living at home? I can see that would be a factor, if she was.

I gotta go for the rest of the day, if I have time tomorrow I'll look up what Jug had said about the number of years dating. I'm pretty sure she says 3 in the book. IIRC.Perhaps they didn't want one event to detract from the other.

Remember Beth took off the summer to get Natalee ready for college. She is quite the planner.

[JustMyOpinion]

The book is an Aruba bash, and not even subtly done.
IMO


Have you read it?

[ortiga]

JUG TWITTY, NATALEE`S STEPFATHER: I would say the same thing. Beth and I have been married now five years, but we dated about eight years, moving from Mississippi.

GRACE: Didn`t want to rush into anything, eight year

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/03/ng.01.html

Loving Natalee: Chapter 1:

"After I had been divorced from the children's father for about seven years, I met George "Jug" Twitty while he was on business in Mississippi. We dated for about three years before marrying in 2000. Matt and Natalee absolutely loved his two older children, Megan and George, and looked forward to moving to the lovely bedroom community of Mountain Brook in Birmingham, Alabama, to join their new family and start their new life."

[ortiga]

Have you read it?

In the process. You?

[JustMyOpinion]

In the process. You?

Haven't read it.
Published reviewers do not opine the book is "an Aruba bash", though.

[ArubaSteve]

Does anyone know if during Beths Bible Belt lectures, tours and seminars if she mentions the missing children of Alabama? Are any children missing in Birmingham that are worthy of her tenacity? Or is she simply fixated on Aruba whose only missing tourist in its history (that I am aware of) is Natalee. I don't blame her for her struggle but I think she should also look to her own home town. I bet there are thousands of missing children, in her home town and if the police were on the ball, there would be less I'm sure. If Heyes thinks the Aruba police are out eating donuts, then maybe the Birmingham police are out drinking moonshine and should sober up.

[ortiga]

Haven't read it.
Published reviewers do not opine the book is "an Aruba bash", though.

"Published reviewers"? Just to get it clear, do you consider a "review" posted anonymously on Amazon a...."published review"?

[JustMyOpinion]

"Published reviewers"? Just to get it clear, do you consider a "review" posted anonymously on Amazon a...."published review"?


Nope.

[No Nic]

Does anyone know if during Beths Bible Belt lectures, tours and seminars if she mentions the missing children of Alabama? Are any children missing in Birmingham that are worthy of her tenacity? Or is she simply fixated on Aruba whose only missing tourist in its history (that I am aware of) is Natalee. I don't blame her for her struggle but I think she should also look to her own home town. I bet there are thousands of missing children, in her home town and if the police were on the ball, there would be less I'm sure. If Heyes thinks the Aruba police are out eating donuts, then maybe the Birmingham police are out drinking moonshine and should sober up.

Sadly, everyone forgets about Willard "Bud" Larson who went missing without a trace in Aruba approx. 5 years prior to Natalee's disappearance. From all accounts reported by his family, they were treated the same way by ALE/Aruban Officials and to this day do not know what happened to their loved one. I say the Larson case is cooboration of how missing tourist cases are handled in Aruba.

Has Aruba ever found a missing tourist, oh wait, it seems that when a missing tourist's money is all gone, they are released from the crack houses and ALE can then find them.

If my child were gone without a trace, forgive me, but that is the child that I would focus on. I am sure that the parents of other missing children are also focusing on their child and not Beth's child. :rolleyes:

imo

[No Nic]

,<snipped>
when the author of the book claims things placed in quotations are not necessarily accurate ???

JMO

Beth said "Quotation marks are used in the book for the purposes of readablity, not necessarily to indicate that the words in quotes are accurate."
<snipped>
IMO

Please tell me how I "misrepresented" these words ??

<snipped>

JMO

Got my copy of the book back from loan this am and wanted to set the record straight. The exact line says "Quotation marks are used in the book for the purpose of readability, not necessarily to indicate that the words are EXACT".

Where I am from the words "accurate" and "exact" have two different meanings, so yes, it was a misrepresentation.

imo

[Luke Davis]

Got my copy of the book back from loan this am and wanted to set the record straight. The exact line says "Quotation marks are used in the book for the purpose of readability, not necessarily to indicate that the words are EXACT".

Where I am from the words "accurate" and "exact" have two different meanings, so yes, it was a misrepresentation.

imo

Thank you so much No Nic. I hope we can all accept that and move on.:hat:

[Luke Davis]

Nope.Do you have a link to an impartial and objective review? I haven't been able to find one by a respected reviewer. The reviews I have read are all over the place, I tend to trust those somewhere in the middle.

[HiLife]

Does anyone know if during Beths Bible Belt lectures, tours and seminars if she mentions the missing children of Alabama? Are any children missing in Birmingham that are worthy of her tenacity? Or is she simply fixated on Aruba whose only missing tourist in its history (that I am aware of) is Natalee. I don't blame her for her struggle but I think she should also look to her own home town. I bet there are thousands of missing children, in her home town and if the police were on the ball, there would be less I'm sure. If Heyes thinks the Aruba police are out eating donuts, then maybe the Birmingham police are out drinking moonshine and should sober up.
When you can come up with a MISSING TOURIST in Alabama, then you would have an appropriate comparison. Until then.....

Yes, I bet the Natalee case is the only one you "are aware of." Aruban officials seemed to be enjoying a nice run, sweeping other cases, like Bud Larson, under the sand dunes...that is, until they met the Holloway family.

:patriot:

[HiLife]

Got my copy of the book back from loan this am and wanted to set the record straight. The exact line says "Quotation marks are used in the book for the purpose of readability, not necessarily to indicate that the words are EXACT".

Where I am from the words "accurate" and "exact" have two different meanings, so yes, it was a misrepresentation.

imo

Good clear up, NN!

Sometimes the desire to bash a victim's mother overrides the ability to discern.

jmo

[HiLife]

Haven't read it.
Published reviewers do not opine the book is "an Aruba bash", though.

An "Aruba bash" - lolololol!!!! What nonsense. It wasn't about Aruba, but about the people there who made a tragedy into an even worse nightmare - it was about a devastating experience and a mother's deep pain and abiding love and faith. Guess the message is lost on those who refuse to see.

It really amazes me the creativity involved when the objective is to twist and spin!

:read:

jmo

[HiLife]

It's amazing that all Natalee's family, friends, investigators, news people, search people made it back alive! :chicken:
I would imagine that would be because none of the above got into a car with Joran and his pals. jmo

[HiLife]

I think you've mentioned that you participated in some of the searches there in Aruba. I think it's wonderful that you donated your time and energy to do that, but I'm curious, because it is my understanding buses were loaded with people to search. What kind of information was coming in on the specific areas the people were taken to search, especially with no evidence of a crime. Do you know?

These are great questions, Suki. I'd love to hear the answers from ArubaSteve. What say you, Steve?

Bumping. jmo

[HiLife]

Uh huh and if certain other parents had gotten their out of control teen some help before he ended up really hurting someone we wouldn't be discussing this at all.
IMO

Bottom line, Heyes, Bottom line.

124 (+ or -) and only ONE did not return. So it's the parent's fault for sending Natalee? It's not even logical! What a lame accusation.

The ONLY parents who should be blamed are the enabling Van der Sloots for creating the monster who is suspected of murdering Natalee.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

I would imagine that would be because none of the above got into a car with Joran and his pals. jmo
But some visited their houses.:chicken:

[HiLife]

But some visited their houses.:chicken:
During the day, and with other people for support.

From all accounts, I believe the only danger then, was to be violently SWEAT upon. :chicken:

jmo

[fairmaiden]

Got my copy of the book back from loan this am and wanted to set the record straight. The exact line says "Quotation marks are used in the book for the purpose of readability, not necessarily to indicate that the words are EXACT".

Where I am from the words "accurate" and "exact" have two different meanings, so yes, it was a misrepresentation.

imo

Well No Nic .... It honestly doesn't make much difference to me . When I look up "exact" in the dictionary .... the meaning is "precise". So .... if something is in the book, and it's not "exact" .... it's not precise .... therefore, I would say it was inaccurate. If something is not precise, or exact, I wouldn't say it was a "misrepresentation" to call it inaccurate .... especially if you're writing a book based on the "TRUTH".

Just My Opinion

[JustMyOpinion]

Do you have a link to an impartial and objective review? I haven't been able to find one by a respected reviewer. The reviews I have read are all over the place, I tend to trust those somewhere in the middle.


I can't determine which reviewers you would find impartial and objective, is there a publication or newspaper you prefer? Here is a review from a Utah newspaper:
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695216138,00.html

[ortiga]

JUG TWITTY, NATALEE`S STEPFATHER: I would say the same thing. Beth and I have been married now five years, but we dated about eight years, moving from Mississippi.

GRACE: Didn`t want to rush into anything, eight year

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/03/ng.01.html

Loving Natalee: Chapter 1:

"After I had been divorced from the children's father for about seven years, I met George "Jug" Twitty while he was on business in Mississippi. We dated for about three years before marrying in 2000. Matt and Natalee absolutely loved his two older children, Megan and George, and looked forward to moving to the lovely bedroom community of Mountain Brook in Birmingham, Alabama, to join their new family and start their new life."

So why would Beth want readers to think they dated only 3 years? What was going on during the other 5 years that Jug, at least, thought they WERE dating?

[HiLife]

Just maybe you should know what was said before you call someone a liar. Do you have a link to Jug said 7 and Beth said 3? (I won't hold my breath waiting).

imo
Absolutely, NN.

Personally, Beth's personal life has nothing to do with how Joran is suspected of murdering Natalee. The fascination with Beth's life has turned into an ugly sport, of sorts. I find it a low form of conversation in the absence of any real news.


jmo

[No Nic]

Well No Nic .... It honestly doesn't make much difference to me . When I look up "exact" in the dictionary .... the meaning is "precise". So .... if something is in the book, and it's not "exact" .... it's not precise .... therefore, I would say it was inaccurate. If something is not precise, or exact, I wouldn't say it was a "misrepresentation" to call it inaccurate .... especially if you're writing a book based on the "TRUTH".

Just My Opinion

I could have predicted this reply, WOW, I am almost dizzy reading it.

Are you actually saying if a quote isn't exact, then it is inaccurate?? According to you, since your quote of what Beth said in the book was not exact nor precise....you did misrepresent what was in the book....accept your own words !!

Simply because something is not quoted "exact" or verbatum does not mean it is not the truth. :rolleyes:

This mindset seems to only apply to Beth Holloway on these message boards. Boggles my mind the tremendous effort that is wasted in these attempts of total and constant negativity towards this person that none of you have ever or will ever meet.

I would bet my last dollar, if Beth had not put this disclaimer in the book, we would be hearing the OUTRAGE....."that is not what so-and-so said..she is lying again". It is obvious there is nothing she could ever do that would satisfy some of you.

I'm done with your spin,as Luke suggested....I have corrected what you misrepresented in the book and I am moving on.

imo

[terrysdoor]

could someone tell me who is searching for Natalee?it seems to me noone.... but of course i could be wrong IMO

[Grandad]

I can't determine which reviewers you would find impartial and objective, is there a publication or newspaper you prefer? Here is a review from a Utah newspaper:
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695216138,00.html

The piece is more a synopsis of the book than a review, but the author does devote one line as a review. He says, "The book is not very well-written."

Didn't you bother to read the article before you posted the link?

[Grandad]

could someone tell me who is searching for Natalee?it seems to me noone.... but of course i could be wrong IMO

Maybe T. J. Ward and Art Wood are. Their books aren't out yet.

[fairmaiden]

could someone tell me who is searching for Natalee?it seems to me noone.... but of course i could be wrong IMO

Hi terry .... That's a good question. It seems "searching for Natalee" has long ago fallen by the wayside. I don't even know if Tim Miller is going back to Aruba. The last I heard, he was going in June, then July, then August, then September ............ I'm not sure, but I might have heard recently Jossy Mansur is going to search, although not him personally. I'm sure someone will correct me on this, but I THOUGHT I heard that.

JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

The piece is more a synopsis of the book than a review, but the author does devote one line as a review. He says, "The book is not very well-written."

Didn't you bother to read the article before you posted the link?

I read it.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695216138,00.html
SNIP:Beth allows the reader to feel the terrible loss she experienced, and to be amazed at her energy and insight

[JustMyOpinion]

Hi terry .... That's a good question. It seems "searching for Natalee" has long ago fallen by the wayside.


Why would Aruban authorities stop searching, IYO?

[Heyes]

Ya gotta love the Joran pep squad, No Nic...LOL

I personally think that a statue of Joran should be erected there in Aruba, so that all the locals can pay their respects and thank him for all he's done for their country. Maybe they could make it out of 151 rum bottles, and condoms. I think it would look nice!

jmo

lol
Thanks for the visual lol lol

[Heyes]

I don't understand why you feel the need to compare the speech of a Dutch boy living in Aruba speaking a second language to an American teacher/speech therapist answering a telephone. But it does make me grin.:hat:

so what was wrong with Beth saying whatcha got? I saw that this was picked out and used as a put down of some sort. Never understood why.
Of course I know that if she sneezes she's going to be picked apart on how loud or soft it was. lol lol

[Heyes]

It's amazing that all Natalee's family, friends, investigators, news people, search people made it back alive! :chicken:

Everyone made it back alive except one and she was with joran.

[Heyes]

Heyes .... It wasn't meant as a "lecture", and I apologize you took it that way. You haven't seen me "lecture" .... my kids could fill you in on that.

My point was .... I have seen you complain because Beth is discussed on the board so much .... ((personally, I don't see how that can be avoided)) .... but, in the remote possibility messageposters CAN have a discussion without the mention of Beth .... then perhaps the responsibility lies partially with you, who never FAILS to mention Beth.

JMO

I usually turn the subject around to joran and the crime I believe he committed with the help of his father and others.
The last few days my posts have been filled with "Beth" because I finished the book.
I'd be more than happy to discuss other things. But if you notice...... there are others that would prefer to discuss Beth, be it her looks, dates, who she is or was married to. But you know that.

[Heyes]

It does, doesn't it Luke ?? Like I said .... I can't imagine why this Island was chosen as a vacation spot for 140 kids with NO chaperones ....

JMO
Well that's something that has stopped, so no more worries!
Aruba can thank their bumbling rude cops, joran, his father and the kalpoes.
IMO

[Heyes]

Haven't read it.
Published reviewers do not opine the book is "an Aruba bash", though.


It's not JMO. Beth tell us of some of her experiences with local arubans and some of these people are wonderful. Supporting her, praying with her. lovely people. All she does is tell what she and her family and friends went through while searching for her daughter. The lies and run-arounds that the suspects and the so called officials put them through.
IMO

[Grandad]

I read it.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695216138,00.html
SNIP:Beth allows the reader to feel the terrible loss she experienced, and to be amazed at her energy and insight

Quote:
"The book is not very well-written."

[Heyes]

Does anyone know if during Beths Bible Belt lectures, tours and seminars if she mentions the missing children of Alabama? Are any children missing in Birmingham that are worthy of her tenacity? Or is she simply fixated on Aruba whose only missing tourist in its history (that I am aware of) is Natalee. I don't blame her for her struggle but I think she should also look to her own home town. I bet there are thousands of missing children, in her home town and if the police were on the ball, there would be less I'm sure. If Heyes thinks the Aruba police are out eating donuts, then maybe the Birmingham police are out drinking moonshine and should sober up.

Yes she talks about other missing people, how she met with the parents of other missing children.
You really need to read the book!
imo

[Grandad]

Why would Aruban authorities stop searching, IYO?

Maybe after an investigation of two and a half years has turned up no evidence of a crime they've decided she just ran off to start a new life.

[JustMyOpinion]

Maybe after an investigation of two and a half years has turned up no evidence of a crime they've decided she just ran off to start a new life.

Since authorities were able to get a court order in June to search the vds property and visit the kalpoe home, and the prosecutor has convinced the judge to extend the period of investigation, I disagree.
Authorities have evidence supporting reasonable suspicion that crimes were committed, IMO.
I have seen no evidence which supports a theory that Natalee ran away.

[Luke Davis]

I read it.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695216138,00.html
SNIP:Beth allows the reader to feel the terrible loss she experienced, and to be amazed at her energy and insight
Thank you for the link.

[HiLife]

Quote:
"The book is not very well-written."

If that's the worst that can be said about it - ROFLMBO!

Doesn't say the book is "untruthful" or filled with "lies," now does it? Nope, because it is the TRUE story of what Beth and her family were put through by ALE and other Aruban officials.

jmo

[JustMyOpinion]

Thank you for the link.

You're welcome, Luke.

[Luke Davis]

Why would Aruban authorities stop searching, IYO?
My guess would be the probability of success does not warrant the expense. It is more likely she would be found without a search than with one.

Several people have been found recently without a search who were missing for many years.

[HiLife]

<snipped>

I'm done with your spin,as Luke suggested....I have corrected what you misrepresented in the book and I am moving on.

imo

WOW is right. My seatbelt sure got a workout, but you handled the challenge well! Thanks for taking the time to correct the constant misrepresentation!

jmo

[HiLife]

Someone said, don't start an arguement with someone who buys ink by the barrel. In today's world it would be cameras. I would certainly be wary of two little ladies handing out prayer cards documented by a camera crew.
I really like that first saying, Luke, never heard it before. Your observation about cameras is so true nowadays. Clever.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Beth visits my area then heads home.

http://www.harpercollins.com/Author/EventSearchResults.aspx?authorID=33337&authorName=Beth+Holloway

[ortiga]

Thank you for the link.

That's not a review, the author doesn't even have the title correct. It's like a 4th grade book report where the student goes through the book and copies sentences from time to time.

Beth didn't even say that the experience ruined her second marriage to Natalee's stepfather. I think she went out of her way to state in the book and on at least one interview in colorado that the marriage was having troubles before. The main very cryptic or possibly freudian slip she makes in the book is by saying (quotes for readability) "Natalee was not completely to blame for the divorce"

That was no review. That was more like a routine publisher's blurb on the back cover.

IMO

BTW, when did she risk "her own life" while searching for Natalee? Handing out prayer cards was dangerous? "In frustration she even conducted a search of her own, risking her life in the process" Say what?

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695216138,00.html

[Luke Davis]

I really like that first saying, Luke, never heard it before. Your observation about cameras is so true nowadays. Clever.

jmo
I think it was a local guy, Samuel Clements.:hat:

Maybe that's why Greta got a little nervous when they took her cameras.

[Luke Davis]

That's not a review, the author doesn't even have the title correct. It's like a 4th grade book report where the student goes through the book and copies sentences from time to time.

Beth didn't even say that the experience ruined her second marriage to Natalee's stepfather. I think she went out of her way to state in the book and on at least one interview in colorado that the marriage was having troubles before. The main very cryptic or possibly freudian slip she makes in the book is by saying (quotes for readability) "Natalee was not completely to blame for the divorce"

That was no review. That was more like a routine publisher's blurb on the back cover.

IMO

BTW, when did she risk "her own life" while searching for Natalee? Handing out prayer cards was dangerous? "In frustration she even conducted a search of her own, risking her life in the process" Say what?

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695216138,00.html

Reputable reviews are scarous.

[ortiga]

WOW is right. My seatbelt sure got a workout, but you handled the challenge well! Thanks for taking the time to correct the constant misrepresentation!

jmo

There was NO, ZERO, ZIP, NINGUNO, NADA, misrepresentation by using the word accurate instead of exact. The use of quotes in a non fiction enterprise is to relate what someone said. Accurately AND exactly. Otherwise what is known as a paraphrase is used.

You do know that the "translations" of the book about Joran were summaries, don't you? They did not translate exactly because of copyright laws. At least on SCRUX that's what happened.

There is no misrepresentation in using the word "accurate" in place of "exact", and it is a misrepresentation to SAY that it was a misrepresentation.

[ortiga]

Reputable reviews are scarous.

Only a person who knows the background of the case can accurately or fairly review the book. Only a person who knows what went on on TV with Twitty can ask "HEY where's the part you claimed on TV"!!!!! So it's not just possible misrepresentations she makes (ie drops 5 years off her courtship with Jug) but it's also the omissions.

Otherwise you can see a bland support of the mother, based on the claims of "risking her own life by searching" (quotes for readability). And so forth. No one wants to have a child go missing, even when the "child" is an adult. No one. For this reason, (there but for the grace of God go I), sympathy oozes towards a person in that position. How that person handles adversity is the real story, and she blew it big time.

IMO

A review very fair is on Amazon, and is by J. Brennan, an observer in this case from practically day one, and a long time reviewer of books for Amazon. Not just someone who dropped in to badmouth or support the mother's literary endeavor. IMO

[No Nic]

Only a person who knows the background of the case can accurately or fairly review the book. Only a person who knows what went on on TV with Twitty can ask "HEY where's the part you claimed on TV"!!!!! So it's not just possible misrepresentations she makes (ie drops 5 years off her courtship with Jug) but it's also the omissions.

Otherwise you can see a bland support of the mother, based on the claims of "risking her own life by searching" (quotes for readability). And so forth. No one wants to have a child go missing, even when the "child" is an adult. No one. For this reason, (there but for the grace of God go I), sympathy oozes towards a person in that position. How that person handles adversity is the real story, and she blew it big time. IMO

A review very fair is on Amazon, and is by J. Brennan, an observer in this case from practically day one, and a long time reviewer of books for Amazon. Not just someone who dropped in to badmouth or support the mother's literary endeavor. IMO

Only to a few people on a couple message boards.

imo

The name from the "fair" review seems very familiar to me. If it is who I think it is (a self-proclaimed "close" personal friend of the VDS's, lol) who posts at RU and at one time the now defunct FOB? Hardly impartial. lol

imo

[Luke Davis]

Only a person who knows the background of the case can accurately or fairly review the book. Only a person who knows what went on on TV with Twitty can ask "HEY where's the part you claimed on TV"!!!!! So it's not just possible misrepresentations she makes (ie drops 5 years off her courtship with Jug) but it's also the omissions.

Otherwise you can see a bland support of the mother, based on the claims of "risking her own life by searching" (quotes for readability). And so forth. No one wants to have a child go missing, even when the "child" is an adult. No one. For this reason, (there but for the grace of God go I), sympathy oozes towards a person in that position. How that person handles adversity is the real story, and she blew it big time.

IMO

A review very fair is on Amazon, and is by J. Brennan, an observer in this case from practically day one, and a long time reviewer of books for Amazon. Not just someone who dropped in to badmouth or support the mother's literary endeavor. IMO

I thought the review by Roger of RU was well written. I do think someone could review the book without knowing about the case. Just from a stand point of being well written, compelling and a page turner without any thought to veracity.

As I said before, I think everyone got what they expected.

[Luke Davis]

If she had a heart attack, where is her body? Why has it disappeared? Why would those who transported her lie to police and falsely implicate innocent men, allow them to be accused of murder and imprisoned, IYO? Why are they still lying, IYO?
Of course, your questions call for speculation but it isn't difficult to come up with a theory that fits the evidence.

The body could be so many place, pet cemetery, buried, incinerated, dumped in ocean, landfill, to name a few. I still favor the idea of dumping the body in a food bin and feeding it to the sharks on the east side of the island.

If Natalee became very sick she could have been dumped at a crack house. Those dumping her really wouldn't know her fate. I have often thought that no one knows the whole story. Long ago I commented on a local case where two men raped a woman and threw her out of a car. Two men found her raped her and slit her throat. She lived. Had she died who could have figured this one out.

The same goes for Natalee. There could be much more and many more suspects. Without a body, it is very dificult. I think the secret recording of the conversation in the car was very telling.

So...I don't know they are still lying, they just might not know what happened.

All speculation of course.

[Luke Davis]

Thursday, June 16, 2005

VAN SUSTEREN: Do you think that she's still alive?

HOLLOWAY: I believe that Natalee is still alive until God tells me otherwise because all I know right now is, the last time I saw my daughter, my daughter is alive, and I know she is here. And until God tells me otherwise, Greta, absolutely. I have all the hope and faith and belief that my daughter is alive.

[fairmaiden]

I thought the review by Roger of RU was well written. I do think someone could review the book without knowing about the case. Just from a stand point of being well written, compelling and a page turner without any thought to veracity.

As I said before, I think everyone got what they expected.

Good Morning, Luke .... :seeya:

I would agree with you .... someone COULD review the book if they were NOT concerned with veracity, just from the standpoints you raised. However, in a book which is non-fiction, veracity HAS to be taken into consideration.

No Nic thinks there is a difference in meaning between the words "accurate" and "exact". I happen to disagree with her. I have no CLUE what Beth had written in her journal. I have no idea as to the TRUTH of it at all. From what I understand, and I stand to be corrected, Beth's journal was referenced for this book. She relied on the notes in her journal. There could be omissions, additions, exaggerations in the book OR in her journal.

She could be quoting someone, for example, and if one refers to her disclaimer, one is left to wonder if it's EXACTLY what someone said !!

Just My Opinion

[JustMyOpinion]

She could be quoting someone, for example, and if one refers to her disclaimer, one is left to wonder if it's EXACTLY what someone said !!

Just My Opinion

IMO, What Beth discloses is what Beth heard.
If a person has previously decided Beth is not credible, they aren't likely to believe her book is a credible source for factual information, IMO.

[fairmaiden]

IMO, What Beth discloses is what Beth heard.
If a person has previously decided Beth is not credible, they aren't likely to believe her book is a credible source for factual information, IMO.

I agree with you. However, IIRC, I believe it is said Beth has also relied on her memory to write some of this book. Is her memory reliable ?? I know I sometimes question my own .... lol.

JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

I agree with you. However, IIRC, I believe it is said Beth has also relied on her memory to write some of this book. Is her memory reliable ?? I know I sometimes question my own .... lol.

JMO

It seems apparent to me you don't find Beth credible, and you don't want to read the book. I think readers will form their own opinion of Beth and her story, and whether or not she is a reliable witness to the events she describes, JMO.

[Luke Davis]

I agree with you. However, IIRC, I believe it is said Beth has also relied on her memory to write some of this book. Is her memory reliable ?? I know I sometimes question my own .... lol.

JMOGood morning fairmaiden.:See ya:

Beth had to be under tremendous stress and that can cause havoc with memory. I don't question her solid facts but I do doubt her when she attributes feelings to others. It made a huge impression on me when she stated some facts, then said it was a mother's gut feeling. To me, a gut feeling and facts are not the same. It's the same with "truth". It's her truth.

[Heyes]

Only to a few people on a couple message boards.

imo

The name from the "fair" review seems very familiar to me. If it is who I think it is (a self-proclaimed "close" personal friend of the VDS's, lol) who posts at RU and at one time the now defunct FOB? Hardly impartial. lol

imo

Not surprising at all. what was it Greta said? Oh yeah, most of the negative things said about Beth seems to be coming from aruba. lmao
That's why I don't take much of it seriously. In fact the more we here about what went on in aruba the lamer their defense becomes. Too funny!
I hope they tell the vandersloots we said HI.:patriot:
I can only think of three people that really, really hate Beth right now. lol I'm sure they still must have a couple of friends left that supports their nonsense.
Then again maybe not. Is paulus still watching over his son in holland or is he back with his wife of convenience in aruba? That was why they got married, right?
IMO
IMO

[Luke Davis]

It seems apparent to me you don't find Beth credible, and you don't want to read the book. I think readers will form their own opinion of Beth and her story, and whether or not she is a reliable witness to the events she describes, JMO.
Everyone will come away from reading Beth's book with what they started with...faith. From what I have read, good and bad, my interest in the book isn't raised.

The questions remain and Beth's truth isn't anymore seductive than Dave's claims of corruption.

[JustMyOpinion]

Everyone will come away from reading Beth's book with what they started with...faith. .


I disagree. Some people who read the book might practice a faith belief, some may not. "everyone" is not the same. Readers are unique individuals, with their own life experiences, their own intellect, belief systems, personalities, etc. JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

The questions remain and Beth's truth isn't anymore seductive than Dave's claims of corruption.


I have remaining questions. I wouldn't expect Dave or Beth to answer MY questions in books about their own experiences. Beth is not seductive, IMO.
In my own opinion, the investigation was corrupted from the outset. The security guards were treated differently than J2K, this was wrong, IMO. Chief van der Straaten had a friendship with Paulus van der Sloot, I think he needed to step aside from the outset, IMO. From what I have read, a Judge ( DeWitt) and public prosecutor ( Ben King) were in Deputy Judge Paulus van der Sloot's home when the polis and chief prosecutor executed a search,and the search was limited, this was wrong, IMO. I agree with Parliamentarian Rudy Lampe, an investigation of the investigation needs to take place so the people of Aruba can learn the truth, JMO.

[fairmaiden]

Everyone will come away from reading Beth's book with what they started with...faith. From what I have read, good and bad, my interest in the book isn't raised.

The questions remain and Beth's truth isn't anymore seductive than Dave's claims of corruption.

Luke .... You are exactly right !! You were right in your last post too, I believe it was .... if someone is under stress, it plays havoc with their memory. I thought I had read somewhere that Beth relied on her memory when writing this book .... as well as her journal.

JMO

[No Nic]

I have remaining questions. I wouldn't expect Dave or Beth to answer MY questions in books about their own experiences. Beth is not seductive, IMO.
In my own opinion, the investigation was corrupted from the outset. The security guards were treated differently than J2K, this was wrong, IMO. Chief van der Straaten had a friendship with Paulus van der Sloot, I think he needed to step aside from the outset, IMO. From what I have read, a Judge ( DeWitt) and public prosecutor ( Ben King) were in Deputy Judge Paulus van der Sloot's home when the polis and chief prosecutor executed a search,and the search was limited, this was wrong, IMO. I agree with Parliamentarian Rudy Lampe, an investigation of the investigation needs to take place so the people of Aruba can learn the truth, JMO.

Well said !! That is exactly the way it was in this investigation and to say otherwise is pure BS, imo. An investigation into the investigation.... WOW....wouldn't that open a few more eyes. Sadly, I doubt it will ever happen. I pity the next victim of Aruba, no doubt in my mind it will happen again.

imo

[JustMyOpinion]

An investigation into the investigation.... WOW....wouldn't that open a few more eyes. Sadly, I doubt it will ever happen. I pity the next victim of Aruba, no doubt in my mind it will happen again.

imo

Rudy Lampe is not in the majority in Parliament, and as long as the MEP party is in power, I doubt the investigation will be examined. ( seems clear to me from reading local press that MEP Minister of Justice Rudy Croes is at odds with some officials in the Kingdom, and wasn't supportive of the KLPD investigation) JMO. I pity the next victim as well, Aruba has done nothing visible and meaningful to reduce sexual assault crimes on the Island or to address the drug activity in and around Carlos N Charlies, IMO. The Island game continues, the players have not been stopped, IMO. I personally believe a free Joran van der Sloot represents a future danger to society, and fear he will commit crimes in the future, JMO. I think he's likely a psychopath, JMO

[Luke Davis]

Beth is in my area and was just on the local radio. Nothing new but a very powerful hour with Ronn Owens.

http://www.kgoam810.com/article.asp?id=453301

[Heyes]

Rudy Lampe is not in the majority in Parliament, and as long as the MEP party is in power, I doubt the investigation will be examined. ( seems clear to me from reading local press that MEP Minister of Justice Rudy Croes is at odds with some officials in the Kingdom, and wasn't supportive of the KLPD investigation) JMO. I pity the next victim as well, Aruba has done nothing visible and meaningful to reduce sexual assault crimes on the Island or to address the drug activity in and around Carlos N Charlies, IMO. The Island game continues, the players have not been stopped, IMO. I personally believe a free Joran van der Sloot represents a future danger to society, and fear he will commit crimes in the future, JMO. I think he's likely a psychopath, JMO


That's the thing, joran has gotten away with this, his demeaner when we see him is arrogant and defiant. He will only get bolder and more brazen. With this one under his belt he probably feels that he is untouchable. What he might do next is worrisome, to say the least. I wish he had to stay on aruba. It really is the only place that deserves him.
I am curious as to why it's been reported that paulus has been staying with him in Holland. Is it to keep an eye on their out of control teen or is it because he's felt unwelcome on aruba?
IMO
IMO

[No Nic]

That's the thing, joran has gotten away with this, his demeaner when we see him is arrogant and defiant. He will only get bolder and more brazen. With this one under his belt he probably feels that he is untouchable. What he might do next is worrisome, to say the least. I wish he had to stay on aruba. It really is the only place that deserves him.
I am curious as to why it's been reported that paulus has been staying with him in Holland. Is it to keep an eye on their out of control teen or is it because he's felt unwelcome on aruba?
IMO
IMO

Paulus is staying with Joran in Holland? Maybe there is "a little discord" in the Anita/Paulus relationship? Possible, imo. A union that produced the likes of Joran must be challenging to say the least, also imo.

imo

[Heyes]

Paulus is staying with Joran in Aruba ? Maybe there is "a little discord" in the Anita/Paulus relationship? Possible, imo. A union that produced the likes of Joran must be challenging to say the least, also imo.

imo

In Holland. At least that's the last I read.

Well when you get married merely for convenience I would imagine that could be true.
They seem to travel seperately alot.
imo

[HiLife]

That's the thing, joran has gotten away with this, his demeaner when we see him is arrogant and defiant. He will only get bolder and more brazen. With this one under his belt he probably feels that he is untouchable. What he might do next is worrisome, to say the least. I wish he had to stay on aruba. It really is the only place that deserves him.
I am curious as to why it's been reported that paulus has been staying with him in Holland. Is it to keep an eye on their out of control teen or is it because he's felt unwelcome on aruba?
IMO
IMO

I, too, believe we should be afraid of Joran's next act. Kind of like OJ Redux. They get bolder and bolder. Dangerous.

Interesting........Paulus and Joran are fraternity bros now? Party on, Dude! I would love to know the real reason, too!

You could be right about Paulus needing to escape - that smackdown by his big boss Mr. Jorj must have been humiliating and clearly showed the VDS' exactly how their peers are viewing them.

JMO

[No Nic]

In Holland. At least that's the last I read.

Well when you get married merely for convenience I would imagine that could be true.
They seem to travel seperately alot.
imo

I know you said Holland and I typed Aruba (you quoted before I could edit).

If this "rumor" were pertaining to Beth, Dave or any of Natalee's family, it would already be stated as fact that they are separated, getting divorced.

imo

[HiLife]

I know you said Holland and I typed Aruba (you quoted before I could edit).

If this "rumor" were pertaining to Beth, Dave or any of Natalee's family, it would already be stated as fact that they are separated, getting divorced.

imo

"Another one bites the dust..." So many casualties/consequences from one sociopath's behavior.

Yes, remember all that was said about Beth and Jug? I wonder, if like Beth and Jug, if the VDS were having problems? Were the womanizing rumors true about Paulus?

Just goes to show that no one should get "pleasure" out of someone else's suffering.

JMO

[Luke Davis]

[edit for clarity]

Just goes to show that no one should get "pleasure" out of someone else's suffering.

JMOThat would be the end of jokes. :hat:

[Heyes]

I know you said Holland and I typed Aruba (you quoted before I could edit).

If this "rumor" were pertaining to Beth, Dave or any of Natalee's family, it would already be stated as fact that they are separated, getting divorced.

imo

LOL I knew that!
Oh the vandersloots have their problems, I think that this is only the beginnning.

[Grandad]

Paulus is staying with Joran in Holland? Maybe there is "a little discord" in the Anita/Paulus relationship? Possible, imo. A union that produced the likes of Joran must be challenging to say the least, also imo.

imo


Seems to be more than "a little discord" between Beth and Jug.

Unfortunately it appears they weren't up to the task of preparing an 18 year old girl for adulthood, but sent her on an all you can drink junket she obviously wasn't ready for.

[Luke Davis]

The public is invited to a presentation at the church by author Beth Holloway at 7 p.m. Thursday, Nov. 8. Holloway will be speaking about her faith and hope. She suffered the kidnapping and disappearance of her daughter, Natalee, in Aruba, in the summer of 2005 during a class trip. Beth Holloway of Alabama has written a book titled “Loving Natalee.”

http://www.petoskeynews.com/articles/2007/10/19/religion/religion.txt

[Luke Davis]

Seems to be more than "a little discord" between Beth and Jug.

Unfortunately it appears they weren't up to the task of preparing an 18 year old girl for adulthood, but sent her on an all you can drink junket she obviously wasn't ready for.
It has been reported she was the most naive of her group.

[Heyes]

I think that beth is likely a narcissist with bi-polar tendencies and that she has fabricated entire stories. But then, anybody can claim to be a psychiatrist on the internet.

imo

I guess that means the ale, the FBI and the dutch investigators, not to mention the hundreds of reporters and TH that followed this case also are suffering the same signs and symptoms?
Wow! So everyone is nuts but the vandersloots a handful of supporters and a a couple of aruban officials that are buddies with joran's dad. Interesting.
Oh wait, I forgot, it's SuperBETH, able to lock up innocent sporters and brainwash the entire world! lol lol

lol Okie dokie then.

[Grandad]

<snip>
You could be right about Paulus needing to escape - that smackdown by his big boss Mr. Jorj

<snip>JMO

Do you have a link showing Jorj is Paulus's boss?

I thought Jorj worked for a government department, and Paulus is an attorney at a private law firm.

[Heyes]

I, too, believe we should be afraid of Joran's next act. Kind of like OJ Redux. They get bolder and bolder. Dangerous.

Interesting........Paulus and Joran are fraternity bros now? Party on, Dude! I would love to know the real reason, too!

You could be right about Paulus needing to escape - that smackdown by his big boss Mr. Jorj must have been humiliating and clearly showed the VDS' exactly how their peers are viewing them.

JMO


I imagine that's why paulus chooses Holland. IMO that had to of been humiliating to get called out right in front of his peers and on the record.
No money for you vandersloot!
Unbelievable, I guess that's all the power those men had in this and that's what they used.
poor paulus. couldn't happend to a nicer enabler.
IMO

[ortiga]

In Holland. At least that's the last I read.

Well when you get married merely for convenience I would imagine that could be true.
They seem to travel seperately alot.
imo

I thought that Beth said in the book that she and Jug always took separate vacacions. He with his friends and family, she with hers. that was sad, and probably deeply affected Natalee.

IMO

[No Nic]

Seems to be more than "a little discord" between Beth and Jug.

Unfortunately it appears they weren't up to the task of preparing an 18 year old girl for adulthood, but sent her on an all you can drink junket she obviously wasn't ready for.

Unfortunately, Anita and Paulus weren't up to the task of preparing their son to be a law abiding citizen/decent human being. Hmmm.......which would I prefer? IMO, the answer is obvious.

imo

[ortiga]

The public is invited to a presentation at the church by author Beth Holloway at 7 p.m. Thursday, Nov. 8. Holloway will be speaking about her faith and hope. She suffered the kidnapping and disappearance of her daughter, Natalee, in Aruba, in the summer of 2005 during a class trip. Beth Holloway of Alabama has written a book titled “Loving Natalee.”

http://www.petoskeynews.com/articles/2007/10/19/religion/religion.txt

Da Li’l Oom-Pah Band ? Is that with accordions?

I wonder when the kidnapping was. And if she'll tell the truth about it. That would be a change.

IMO

[ortiga]

It has been reported she was the most naive of her group.


that was good of her friends and family to care for their naive friend and daughter.

[ortiga]

Seems to be more than "a little discord" between Beth and Jug.

Unfortunately it appears they weren't up to the task of preparing an 18 year old girl for adulthood, but sent her on an all you can drink junket she obviously wasn't ready for.


Beth just didn't have Natalee long enough. No time.

[ortiga]

snipped Were the womanizing rumors true about Paulus?

snipped

JMO
Were the carousing rumors about Beth true?

IMO

[ortiga]

LOL I knew that!
Oh the vandersloots have their problems, I think that this is only the beginnning.


Do you think Beth will marry for a third time? Why do you think she said in the book she only dated Jug for 3 years, when Jug, on NG, said 8? Why did she lop off those 5 years?

[ortiga]

I know you said Holland and I typed Aruba (you quoted before I could edit).

If this "rumor" were pertaining to Beth, Dave or any of Natalee's family, it would already be stated as fact that they are separated, getting divorced.

imo

Please state the source of your rumor. Among Beth and Dave and their spouses there have already been a passle of divorces. Let's see, Beth: 2 divorces; Dave 1 divorce: Jug 2 divorces; Robin, dont know how many. Yet the VDS have a unique marriage compared to those Americans.....Still married after all this years, to each other.

Please link to the source of the rumors you are posting about the VDS. TIA

[HiLife]

I imagine that's why paulus chooses Holland. IMO that had to of been humiliating to get called out right in front of his peers and on the record.
No money for you vandersloot!
Unbelievable, I guess that's all the power those men had in this and that's what they used.
poor paulus. couldn't happend to a nicer enabler.
IMO

Oh yeah, I forgot about the court denying Paulus' extortion money bid from the poor Aruban tax payers. What a worthless example he set before his children. I wonder how having a daddy with no spine and questionable morals affected Joran's upbringing? We've seen the end result.

jmo

[HiLife]

<snipped>

IMO


Carousing = Joran.

JMO

[Heyes]

Please state the source of your rumor. Among Beth and Dave and their spouses there have already been a passle of divorces. Let's see, Beth: 2 divorces; Dave 1 divorce: Jug 2 divorces; Robin, dont know how many. Yet the VDS have a unique marriage compared to those Americans.....Still married after all this years, to each other.

Please link to the source of the rumors you are posting about the VDS. TIA
"Unique"????????

lol lol lol
uniquely convenient! lol
As long as she doesn't mind mopping up behind him, I say to each his own. lol lol
Of course this little problem of his may have started about the time joran misplaced an American citizen.
imo

[HiLife]

"Unique"????????

lol lol lol
uniquely convenient! lol
As long as she doesn't mind mopping up behind him, I say to each his own. lol lol
Of course this little problem of his may have started about the time joran misplaced an American citizen.
imo

"Unique" = When one marries to obtain a visa.

You're right: lololol! How "special." :biggrin:

jmo

[No Nic]

Please state the source of your rumor. Among Beth and Dave and their spouses there have already been a passle of divorces. Let's see, Beth: 2 divorces; Dave 1 divorce: Jug 2 divorces; Robin, dont know how many. Yet the VDS have a unique marriage compared to those Americans.....Still married after all this years, to each other.

Please link to the source of the rumors you are posting about the VDS. TIA

Source of a "rumor"? ROTFLMAO I don't see your side posting sources for what you state as fact.

Someone said they heard Paulus was staying with Joran in Holland. As is typical here concerning Beth, we can all speculate why he is not at home with his wife, enjoying that "unique" marriage.

imo

[HiLife]

Source of a "rumor"? ROTFLMAO I don't see your side posting sources for what you state as fact.

Someone said they heard Paulus was staying with Joran in Holland. As is typical here concerning Beth, we can all speculate why he is not at home with his wife, enjoying that "unique" marriage.

imo

Remember how a while back, Paulus was interviewed in a vacation cabin in Montana, while Anita was in Holland nursing poor, widdle Joran back to health? How about when Anita was in Holland while Joran was committing his suspected crimes? Now, it is rumored Paulus is with Joran in Holland. Sounds like "separate vacations" also apply to the Van der Sloots.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Rudy Lampe is not in the majority in Parliament, and as long as the MEP party is in power, I doubt the investigation will be examined. ( seems clear to me from reading local press that MEP Minister of Justice Rudy Croes is at odds with some officials in the Kingdom, and wasn't supportive of the KLPD investigation) JMO. I pity the next victim as well, Aruba has done nothing visible and meaningful to reduce sexual assault crimes on the Island or to address the drug activity in and around Carlos N Charlies, IMO. The Island game continues, the players have not been stopped, IMO. I personally believe a free Joran van der Sloot represents a future danger to society, and fear he will commit crimes in the future, JMO. I think he's likely a psychopath, JMO

Why would the Arubans want to eliminate the attractions for American tourists?

[Grandad]

<snip> How about when Anita was in Holland while Joran was committing his suspected crimes?

<snip>jmo

How does one commit a "suspected" crime?

Do you mean Joran did something that wasn't a crime?

[No Nic]

Remember how a while back, Paulus was interviewed in a vacation cabin in Montana, while Anita was in Holland nursing poor, widdle Joran back to health? How about when Anita was in Holland while Joran was committing his suspected crimes? Now, it is rumored Paulus is with Joran in Holland. Sounds like "separate vacations" also apply to the Van der Sloots.

jmo

IMO, they should take turns "staying with Joran" wherever he is. Maybe if they watch him closer than they did in Aruba, they will save another young woman from disappearing. Oh...Wait...that would have to be Anita's job...it would never have happened to Natalee if Anita had been home...per Joran. :rolleyes:

imo

[HiLife]

IMO, they should take turns "staying with Joran" wherever he is. Maybe if they watch him closer than they did in Aruba, they will save another young woman from disappearing. Oh...Wait...that would have to be Anita's job...it would never have happened to Natalee if Anita had been home...per Joran. :rolleyes:

imo
Appears they learned their lesson too late to help Natalee. :(

jmo

[HiLife]

Source of a "rumor"? ROTFLMAO I don't see your side posting sources for what you state as fact.

Someone said they heard Paulus was staying with Joran in Holland. As is typical here concerning Beth, we can all speculate why he is not at home with his wife, enjoying that "unique" marriage.

imo

Here is proof they do not provide "sources" for their rumors:

============================
Post #663 9-30-2007

ortiga
Super Member Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,664

On another board there is a rumor that Anita wanted the dialogue in the meeting to be uncut and unedited, but did agree to the cameras, but Beth would not agree to the non-edited clause. Sure it's a rumor, but I believe it because that was Joran's agreement with Greta too, and it makes sense that his mom would demand the same, expeshally after what Beth did to the family for so many months, and for what both Beth and Dave did to the family after they graciously spoke off camera with them.

Beth does not want to be in any situation where she can't cut, parse, exaggerate, and lie as much as she wants to. She wants to make fun of Anita and her family again, and can't do it with an unedited transcript. IMO

IMO

[No Nic]

I see no "source" for this rumor you posted: Post #663

ortiga
Super Member Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,664

On another board there is a rumor that Anita wanted the dialogue in the meeting to be uncut and unedited, but did agree to the cameras, but Beth would not agree to the non-edited clause. Sure it's a rumor, but I believe it because that was Joran's agreement with Greta too, and it makes sense that his mom would demand the same, expeshally after what Beth did to the family for so many months, and for what both Beth and Dave did to the family after they graciously spoke off camera with them.

Beth does not want to be in any situation where she can't cut, parse, exaggerate, and lie as much as she wants to. She wants to make fun of Anita and her family again, and can't do it with an unedited transcript. IMO

IMO

I guess it is fair to say about Anita & Paulus "Sure it's a rumor, but I believe it because "..........(pick a reason, any reason, all are acceptable).
imo

[ortiga]

I guess it is fair to say about Anita & Paulus "Sure it's a rumor, but I believe it because "..........(pick a reason, any reason, all are acceptable).
imo


Do you know why Beth cut 5 years off her courtship with Jug? What is she hiding? Was she ashamed of having to wait 8 years to get married, so that she wanted to make it seem better by saying they dated just 3 years?

When did Jug get his divorce? Were beth and jug dating while either of them were married to someone else?

why else would she lie about such a thing:::::::?

[Grandad]

Here is proof they do not provide "sources" for their rumors:

<snip>

IMO

Still waiting for proof "Jorj" is Paulus's boss.

[No Nic]

Do you know why Beth cut 5 years off her courtship with Jug? What is she hiding? Was she ashamed of having to wait 8 years to get married, so that she wanted to make it seem better by saying they dated just 3 years?

When did Jug get his divorce? Were beth and jug dating while either of them were married to someone else?

why else would she lie about such a thing:::::::?

Do you know why Paulus is staying with Joran in Holland? Did Anita finally wise up and kick him out? Was the backyard apt too close to move Paulus? Is she tired of his fooling around? Is she tired of wiping up the sweat? Does she blame him for Joran being uncontrollable and a despicable human being, like father like son?

[HiLife]

Do you know why Paulus is staying with Joran in Holland? Did Anita finally wise up and kick him out? Was the backyard apt too close to move Paulus? Is she tired of his fooling around? Is she tired of wiping up the sweat? Does she blame him for Joran being uncontrollable and a despicable human being, like father like son?

"wiping up the sweat" - LOLOLOL!!! More like mopping!

Can't wait to see what the real reason is for Paulus being in Holland. Maybe he's looking for a job?

Now that I think about it, I wonder why Paulus and Anita chose to move to Aruba and to be away from their families? Wasn't it mentioned the VDS' were all alone on Aruba? Isn't Grandma in Holland? Why the isolation? Were they running from something? I heard once, IIRC, that Paulus' brother was some kind of high official in Holland. Wonder if the brother is more successful? Wonder how embarassed Paulus must be, now that Joran has ruined the rest of the innocent extended family's name?

jmo

[HiLife]

Still waiting for proof "Jorj" is Paulus's boss.

I'm not the one asking for proof of anything. I'm simply providing the reason why people shouldn't throw stones.

Mr. Jorj is the head of the Department of Justice. Paulus was a judge-in-training. So, technically, Jorg would be his "boss." If you can prove he is not, then I stand corrected. No prob.

Anyway, it doesn't even matter WHAT Jorj is to Paulus......he still gave him a public, humiliating, well-deserved smackdown.

jmo

[No Nic]

"wiping up the sweat" - LOLOLOL!!! More like mopping!

Can't wait to see what the real reason is for Paulus being in Holland. Maybe he's looking for a job?

Now that I think about it, I wonder why Paulus and Anita chose to move to Aruba and to be away from their families? Wasn't it mentioned the VDS' were all alone on Aruba? Isn't Grandma in Holland? Why the isolation? Were they running from something? I heard once, IIRC, that Paulus' brother was some kind of high official in Holland. Wonder if the brother is more successful? Wonder how embarassed Paulus must be, now that Joran has ruined the rest of the innocent extended family's name?

jmo

Since we don't reside in the same country as the VDSs and the media here is not interested in the parents of the prime suspect, most of their skeletons will probably stay in their closets. Until Joran strikes again, that is, then it could become a free for all.

I doubt any of Paulus or Anita's extended family are proud of their "sporter".

imo

[Luke Davis]

Since we don\\\'t reside in the same country as the VDSs and the media here is not interested in the parents of the prime suspect, most of their skeletons will probably stay in their closets. Until Joran strikes again, that is, then it could become a free for all.

I doubt any of Paulus or Anita\\\'s extended family are proud of their \\\"sporter\\\".

imo

Just think if Beth had time...maybe Anita would have spilled her guts. But sorry, Beth was too busy looking for police.

Anita probably just wanted Beth to sign her book.:hat:

[Grandad]

I'm not the one asking for proof of anything. I'm simply providing the reason why people shouldn't throw stones.

Mr. Jorj is the head of the Department of Justice. Paulus was a judge-in-training. So, technically, Jorg would be his "boss." If you can prove he is not, then I stand corrected. No prob.

Anyway, it doesn't even matter WHAT Jorj is to Paulus......he still gave him a public, humiliating, well-deserved smackdown.

jmo

When what you exaggerate to be a "public smackdown" took place Paulus was in private practice as an attorney.

"Jorj" was not then, and had never been, Paulus's boss.

What you take glee in misrepresenting as a "public smackdown" was nothing more than an opinion, and I don't believe a translated transcript was ever published, so we don't really know what was actually said.

[HiLife]

When what you exaggerate to be a "public smackdown" took place Paulus was in private practice as an attorney.

"Jorj" was not then, and had never been, Paulus's boss.

What you take glee in misrepresenting as a "public smackdown" was nothing more than an opinion, and I don't believe a translated transcript was ever published, so we don't really know what was actually said.

LOL - no exaggeration at all. It was public. It was embarassing. Paulus was said to have changed color from embarassment. And yes, there was a transcript. It was posted various times here. Feel free to Google.

Like I said, matters not if Mr. Jorj was Paulus' boss or not. Splitting hairs on this is unecessary. He publicly stated he did not feel Paulus and Joran had told the entire truth (paraphrased). Pretty embarassing , if you ask me!

jmo

[HiLife]

Posted 3-20-07 on Natalee Holloway Discussion (part 2)

http://www.cspnv.com/archivo/pdf/March/15/A-15-3-07.pdf


Translated by Arubagirl (an avid Aruba/VDS supporter):

Oranjestad - Something unusual happened Tuesday morning during the swearing-in ceremony of the three Scribes to the Court who are Maikel Oduber, Navio Valdez and Edwin de Weever and the three lawyers mr. Foy, mr. Vis and mr. Bryson.

What happened is that Advocate General mr. Jorg, in front of all the lawyers present, among them mr. Van Der Sloot as well, decided to question the statement of Mr. Van Der Sloot that was published in Amigoe. The reaction of Mr. Jorg was a surprise to all thouse present and especially to mr. Van Der Sloot himself.

Bon Dia Aruba was present when mr. Jorg was to give a speech related to the lawyers that had been sworn in. At a certain moment the speech changed to the subject about the relationship between advocacy and the Department of Justice.

Mr. Jorg expressed himself in a very diplomatic way, but to everybody present it was very clear that he was referring to mr. Van Der Sloot. He questioned the fact that Mr. Van Der Sloot went to look for publicity by giving a statement to Amigoe and make certain statements that mr. Jorg never experienced. He refers here to the fact that lawyers and prosecutors publicly refer to each other as idiots. Mr. Jorg said that he hopes that this not become a habit. He said that he thinks we won't come very far by insulting each other. He made a call to change these actions to a better way to relate to each other.

Mr. Jorg also questioned the fact that Mr. Van Der Sloot attacked the Department of Justice for being out of balance, without management, untrustworthy and without any kind of ethics. Mr. Jorg remarked that these are large words but they demand arguments to show this as well. He finds that the argument cannot only consist of comparing the importance of finding the missing young lady against "all sorts of idiocy" from the other side. Mr. Jorg said that he can't unattach finding the young lady from the search for those people who are responsible for her disappearance. Especially when certain people are contradicting themselves and others about their role around the crucial moments during the disappearance.

Mr. Jorg continued to say that what he finds very strange is that on one hand the magistrates of the Department of Justice get questioned but on the other hand the Police get accused of not "have followed through" with the interrogation of a suspect. Mr. Jorg referred to the fact that in the Code of Criminal Procedings, a suspect has the right to remain silent. If this [right] is violated, then the case can even appear in front of the European Human Rights court. He thinks this observation [referring to the police] is absurd.

He also questioned the fact that blame was assigned to the police by saying that the suspect did not declare the whole truth to the Police. Mr Jorg asked if t his is not a choice that the suspect himself makes? He remarked that he was asking himself how a child can get it in his head to go weeks without giving a statement to the police.

This is a recap of the speech. It could be noted in the courtroom that the color of mr. Van Der Sloot changed, showing that he did not find himself comfortable. Many lawyers had comments on the reaction of mr. Jorg. Some lawyers opine that it was not the place nor the time to make this speech while other lawyers find it strange that mr. Jorg made such a speech but that mr. Van Sloot himself asked for it.
-----------

jmo

[No Nic]

But it's great for the rumor mill. Perhaps next we will hear that Anita was having an affair with Jorj and that is the reason that Joran must have been kicked out of the house. To some it will make sense LOL.

imo

Anita's affair wasn't the reason Joran was kicked out of the house. IIRC, he was kicked out because he couldn't get along with the rest of the family and beat up on his little brothers.

imo

[Grandad]

Posted 3-20-07 on Natalee Holloway Discussion (part 2)

http://www.cspnv.com/archivo/pdf/March/15/A-15-3-07.pdf



Exactly where in that rambling report is a "public smackdown" of Paulus van der Sloot?

[Grandad]

Anita's affair wasn't the reason Joran was kicked out of the house. IIRC, he was kicked out because he couldn't get along with the rest of the family and beat up on his little brothers.

imo

Stating Joran was "kicked out of the hose" is a gross misrepresentation.

Are you at all familiar with any facts regarding this case?

[No Nic]

Stating Joran was "kicked out of the hose" is a gross misrepresentation.

Are you at all familiar with any facts regarding this case?


Your 1st sentence is only your opinion, my opinion doesn't happen to agree with your opinion (surprise, surprise !!).

As for your 2nd question, were you looking in a mirror when you ask it?


imo

[HiLife]

Exactly where in that rambling report is a "public smackdown" of Paulus van der Sloot?

LOL - it's been clearly explained. I cannot help you further.

jmo

[HiLife]

Anita's affair wasn't the reason Joran was kicked out of the house. IIRC, he was kicked out because he couldn't get along with the rest of the family and beat up on his little brothers.

imo

Question: What kind of people witness harmful or destructive behavior and then REWARD the perpetrator with his own separate apartment where he can easily sneak out to illegally gamble, drink and carouse until all hours on school nights?

Answer: E - N - A - B - L - E - R - S


:read:

jmo

[Grandad]

Your 1st sentence is only your opinion, my opinion doesn't happen to agree with your opinion (surprise, surprise !!).

As for your 2nd question, were you looking in a mirror when you ask it?

imo

No, my first statement is a fact. One can't have been thrown of the house if he continues to live there.

Since I "hunt and peck" I was looking at my keyboard when I addressed my question to you.

[Grandad]

LOL - it's been clearly explained. I cannot help you further.

jmo

You make it perfectly clear you can't help.

[ortiga]

LOL facts? What do facts have to do with this case?

A drunken woman has stated that she didn't wish to return to her domineering mother and/or Alabama. Seems that even in her intoxicated state she managed to do as she wished. Shame that beth can't face some facts.

imo

I'm sure that Beth HAS faced some facts, but promptly discarded them because they would hamper the sale of Natalee Holloway products. Like she says now, her whole life has changed......now that she is a CEO and president, has a new voice and face, how can she go back to teaching youngsters how to pronounce expeshally. And teaching that one person can perpetrate another person. IE Natalee's "original perpetrators".

Sometimes the concept of "lowest common denominator prevails" seems to dominate in this case.

IMO

[ortiga]

You make it perfectly clear you can't help.


No help here. They won't even attempt to answer why Beth lopped 5 years off her courtship with Jug, at least for the book she has. He says 8 years, she says 3. Hmmm, hiding something, I think.

That leads me to believe that whole story about the kids marking up her "escort's" car is another fake story. I think she says she didn't date much after that.

"Escort" is a curious choice of words. Or maybe it means what it says. Escort, not date.

IMO

[ortiga]

Is it true that Beth didn't even dedicate her book to Natalee?

Will someone quote the dedication? Thanks.

[ortiga]

No idea but it keeps tumbling rather rapidly in Amazon's ranking:

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #2,272 in Books

an hour later...Amazon.com Sales Rank: #2,302 in books

[Grandad]

I read that at least one of Beth's book signings she said she was planning to have her ISTF "certify" "safe travel consultants."

Has anyone else heard this?

Does she actually believe she's qualified to "certify" professionals for any purpose?

Now, if she wanted to charge people to attend seminars on how to skim donations from trust funds or tax free foundations, that would be another matter.

I don't think many would question her expertise in those areas.

[ortiga]

I read that at least one of Beth's book signings she said she was planning to have her ISTF "certify" "safe travel consultants."

Has anyone else heard this?

Does she actually believe she's qualified to "certify" professionals for any purpose?

Now, if she wanted to charge people to attend seminars on how to skim donations from trust funds or tax free foundations, that would be another matter.

I don't think many would question her expertise in those areas.

I hadn't heard that (about certifying safe travel consultants), but it's not surprising. I did read (where?) that Auburn U has some kind of safe travel course, and that it's now mandatory for students that are traveling. (Can't figure out how they enforce that). The ISTF site has a blurb on how the program was started and how they gave Beth and her cohorts money for web site development. Obviously she has no experience or qualifications to advise anyone as to "safe travel", or anything else I can think of, having failed in a couple of marriages, and having chosen to send her virgin daughter on a drinking vacation...I can't think of any advice I'd want her to give any young people, and I do think she should be prohibited from giving lectures on public property due to her propensity to lie.

The trick is to make mandatory whatever program she is dreaming up to make yet more money off her daughter. Maybe she can get the sheriffs group to make it mandatory for all new recruits or something like that.
Then they too will learn the buddy system, to cover their drinks, and to hang a "safe travel" thingie from the rear view mirrors of all squad cars.

IMO

[fairmaiden]

I hadn't heard that (about certifying safe travel consultants), but it's not surprising. I did read (where?) that Auburn U has some kind of safe travel course, and that it's now mandatory for students that are traveling. (Can't figure out how they enforce that). The ISTF site has a blurb on how the program was started and how they gave Beth and her cohorts money for web site development. Obviously she has no experience or qualifications to advise anyone as to "safe travel", or anything else I can think of, having failed in a couple of marriages, and having chosen to send her virgin daughter on a drinking vacation...I can't think of any advice I'd want her to give any young people, and I do think she should be prohibited from giving lectures on public property due to her propensity to lie.

The trick is to make mandatory whatever program she is dreaming up to make yet more money off her daughter. Maybe she can get the sheriffs group to make it mandatory for all new recruits or something like that.
Then they too will learn the buddy system, to cover their drinks, and to hang a "safe travel" thingie from the rear view mirrors of all squad cars.

IMO

Hi ortiga .... Well, you know .... one of our regular posters thinks of Beth as a "success". There's something SO ironic about that, IMO. I'm not sure how they define "success" though. Is it a monetary thing ?? I'm assuming that no poster who posts here regularly, KNOWS Beth. So, being "successful" has happened since Natalee disappeared.

This "mandatory" course they are giving at Auburn U. .... what do they do. give someone a passing or failing grade ?? They don't graduate WITHOUT it ?? Are they going to request students to give their "traveling information" BEFORE they start class ?? I mean .... really !!

JMO

[Grandad]

<snip>
This "mandatory" course they are giving at Auburn U. .... what do they do. give someone a passing or failing grade ?? They don't graduate WITHOUT it ??
JMO

Since they don't have the power to revoke a student's passport, maybe they put a permanent mark on his forehead if he fails the course.

[ortiga]

Since they don't have the power to revoke a student's passport, maybe they put a permanent mark on his forehead if he fails the course.

Maybe she'll parlay Natalee's disappearance into such a career success that no passport will be issued without such a mark.

[Luke Davis]

AU funds can be used for student field trips only if:

1. the trip is an integral part of the lesson plan in a course for academic credit -or-
2. the student is paying a fee (above and beyond normal tuition fees) to participate in the trip (ex. SGA sponsored spring break trip where student pays trip expenses through the SGA.)

http://www.auburn.edu/administration/business_office/policy_manual/travel.html#contents

My neighbor had to take a mandatory course before she was eligible for the exchange student program. She studied for a year in the UK.

[JustMyOpinion]

I still can't figure out why Natalee who came from such a supposedly pious family acted so irresponsibly.


imo

I haven't heard Beth or Dave claim they were "a pious family", this must be your interpretation, IMO.
It is evident to me that Natalee and others were not made aware that bars are dangerous places where sexual predators target their victims, and they did not take adequate steps to protect themselves. Beth has said if Natalee had known what she teaches now, it would have saved her life, and she hopes other lives are saved by obtaining the information. ( paraphrasing).

[Heli]

I haven't heard Beth or Dave claim they were "a pious family", this must be your interpretation, IMO.
It is evident to me that Natalee and others were not made aware that bars are dangerous places where sexual predators target their victims, and they did not take adequate steps to protect themselves. Beth has said if Natalee had known what she teaches now, it would have saved her life, and she hopes other lives are saved by obtaining the information. ( paraphrasing).

I believe Dave and Robin are pious and regular churchgoers. Beth and Jug were NOT members of any church and did NOT attend church at all, or certainly infrequently. We heard not one word from Beth about her faith until many, many months after Natalee disappeared and when the other strategies began to fail, Beth unearthed her stations of the cross anecdote.

With regard to what Natalee knew or had been told prior to going on the drinkfest trip, we have a very inconsistent story told by Beth. Until the book was published, Beth had told us that Natalee was naive and didn't know or Beth had not warned her about what she could expect in Aruba.

Well, well, lo and behold in her book Beth suddenly tells of having a long talk with Natalee; that boys will no doubt find her attractive in Aruba and she should be careful as she could be targeted ... Someone has posted on another board the excerpt of what Beth purports she lectured Natalee about before leaving. What happened to her 'not having had Natalee long enough' to teach her what she should have known in Aruba??

Does this woman ever stop fabricating stories to suit her current agenda.

[cassidy]

Does this woman ever stop fabricating stories to suit her current agenda.

No.


IMO

[fairmaiden]

I haven't heard Beth or Dave claim they were "a pious family", this must be your interpretation, IMO.
It is evident to me that Natalee and others were not made aware that bars are dangerous places where sexual predators target their victims, and they did not take adequate steps to protect themselves. Beth has said if Natalee had known what she teaches now, it would have saved her life, and she hopes other lives are saved by obtaining the information. ( paraphrasing).

IIRC .... Way back in the beginning, Beth had made a point of telling Nancy Grace, I believe it was .... that Jug's son had gone on the same "celebratory trip", a couple of years prior. He had specifically warned Beth about C&C's, in particular . I'm not sure if he had talked to Natalee about it .... but the onus was now on Beth to warn Natalee about it, IMO.

Heli is correct when she says Beth has been inconsistent, as far as that goes. I've heard her say MANY times .... Natalee was not prepared for a trip like this.

I'm not sure who was in charge of researching trips like this one. Did the parents of kids on this trip realize ((they must have)), that "supervision" of these kids was going to be non-existent .... the end result being that there were 100 plus kids left to their OWN devices ?? IIRC, Beth was warned about the prevelance of drugs freely exchanging hands outside of C&C's. I remember her talking about that.

When you think about it .... it's a little like sending a toddler somewhere, and expecting it to fend for itself .... IF what Beth says is true about Natalee being as naive as she was.

JMO

[Heli]

Are we talking about the same Natalee that is able to recant perfectly bible verses by the hundreds? Are we talking about the same beth who's faith has carried her through this "tragedy"? Are we talking about the same young woman who taught bibleschool to young children?

If they weren't pious were they just faking it?

Careful review of my post will reveal that I made no reference to Natalee. We all know that Natalee is an uncanonized saint ... that's so obvious by viewing her BFF's
in action as evidenced by the 100's of pictures they so happily posted to the internet. ** Nuns don't party and befriend and generally socialize with alcoholics and druggies in the local bars

lol "recant" bible verses??? I think you best check the definition of "recant" Incidentally, muslim extremists (terrorists) must memorize the entire Q'Ran so memorizing
bible verses only speaks to a person's memory bank and is not necessarily indicative of a morally based lifestyle.

[Grandad]

<snip>
It is evident to me that Natalee and others were not made aware that bars are dangerous places where sexual predators target their victims.

<snip>

I really don't think this statement requires any comment, so I'll just bump it for those who might have missed it.

[Heli]

I really don't think this statement requires any comment, so I'll just bump it for those who might have missed it.

Strangely, Beth has a completely new and improved version of the conversation she had with Natalee before she went on the trip to Aruba. Those of you who have the book know exactly what I'm speaking of.

Other sites have posted the paragraph from the book that details an entirely new story about the cautions Beth gave to Natalee. Does this woman really think everybody forgets the inconsistent stories she's told about this all along?

[JustMyOpinion]

IIRC ....
When you think about it .... it's a little like sending a toddler somewhere, and expecting it to fend for itself .... IF what Beth says is true about Natalee being as naive as she was.

JMO

Natalee was not a toddler, and I doubt the majority of parents have adequately educated & prepared teens to best ensure their personal safety, JMO. Perhaps the spotllight on cases like Natalee's will prompt more parents to do so, JMO. Natalee was victimized by predators, IMO..and those who harmed her are 100 percent responsible for their actions, JMO.

[Grandad]

<snip>
Does this woman really think everybody forgets the inconsistent stories she's told about this all along?

There seem to be quite a few posters on message boards and people in the media who have.

[Grandad]

<snip>
I doubt the majority of parents have adequately educated & prepared teens to best ensure their personal safety.



Lord, help the youth of our country if this is true.

[Grandad]

Natalee was victimized by predators? Good thing you have that "IMO" in there because Nat is the one that invited Joran to dance and to take jello shots off her navel. Nat was also the one who early on in the evening was he##bent on finding somebody to get hooked up with.

As far as I'm concerned, Nat is 100% responsible for her own behavior. Let me know when you have some, nay ANY proof that a crime took place in this case.

imo

Natalee wasn't a five year old who couldn't resist the lure of a piece of candy, or the opportunity to help a lost kitten.

If she was truly as naive as Beth would have us believe, Beth is guilty of child abuse.

[JustMyOpinion]

Natalee was victimized by predators? Good thing you have that "IMO" in there because Nat is the one that invited Joran to dance and to take jello shots off her navel. Nat was also the one who early on in the evening was he##bent on finding somebody to get hooked up with.

As far as I'm concerned, Nat is 100% responsible for her own behavior. Let me know when you have some, nay ANY proof that a crime took place in this case.

Natalee was drinking and socializing with some of her classmates in a bar on the last night of her vacation. I haven't heard anyone but Joran claim Natalee invited him to dance or that she invited him to take a jello shot. Do you have a link statements from a witness who has corroborated Joran's claims? TIA. And if she did invite him to dance, or do a jello shot, so what?
This doesn't imply she wanted to become the victim of kidnap, rape or murder, which are the alleged crimes Joran is suspected of committing.

[Grandad]

Natalee was drinking and socializing with some of her classmates in a bar on the last night of her vacation. I haven't heard anyone but Joran claim Natalee invited him to dance or that she invited him to take a jello shot. Do you have a link statements from a witness who has corroborated Joran's claims? TIA. And if she did invite him to dance, or do a jello shot, so what?
This doesn't imply she wanted to become the victim of kidnap, rape or murder, which are the alleged crimes Joran is suspected of committing.

I haven't heard a statement from any witness who claims Natalee didn't invite Joran to dance or offer to let him take a belly shot off her. Have you?

And there's not a shred of evidence, whoever initiated contact, that Joran committed any crime.

[JustMyOpinion]

Not even Nat's mother implies in her book (othern than on the cover) that she was kidnapped, gangraped and murdered.

There have been plenty of links that showed that Natalee invited Joran to dance and take the jello shots. It's Sunday morning and my religion prevents me from having to work.

.

Joran was detained by local authorities on reasonable suspicion of involvement in the alleged crimes of kidnap, rape & murder. Please link to published statements from a witness who corroborates Joran's claims, since you say there are plenty available, TIA.

[fairmaiden]

<<snip>>
. Does this woman really think everybody forgets the inconsistent stories she's told about this all along?

Heli .... Always good to "see" you. Personally, I believe she does exactly that !!

JMO

[Heyes]

Are we talking about the same Natalee that is able to recant perfectly bible verses by the hundreds? Are we talking about the same beth who's faith has carried her through this "tragedy"? Are we talking about the same young woman who taught bibleschool to young children?

If they weren't pious were they just faking it?


I gather from the tone of your post that a person who can recite bible verses "by the hundreds", or someone who teaches bibleschool is somehow a negative thing? I feel that some on here find Natalee's deep commitment in her religion is somehow a negative thing. :shrug:
joran and his family don't believe in any religion, IIRC so i guess it's open season on Natalee's???
I find the mocking of Beth's and Natalee's faith offensive an insulting.

[Heyes]

Natalee was not a toddler, and I doubt the majority of parents have adequately educated & prepared teens to best ensure their personal safety, JMO. Perhaps the spotllight on cases like Natalee's will prompt more parents to do so, JMO. Natalee was victimized by predators, IMO..and those who harmed her are 100 percent responsible for their actions, JMO.


But if the victim and her mom are not ridiculed and blamed, there is no defense.
imo

[Heyes]

I'm ever so sorry that you misinterpreted my post.

beth's faith reminds me of the born-again christians on death row.

Regurgitating bible verses or poetry doesn't make person's religious beliefs or knowledge of lingual arts. It doesn't make a person pious, nor does it make a person a brilliant writer.

If Natalee were such a pious person surely she wouldn't have gone on a week long bingedrinking fest and no doubt she would have stayed close to her very caring and equally pious christian friends.

If I start talking with a Texan accent, does that make me a cowboy?

imo

I don't think I misinterpreted your post!

:eek: :chicken:

[Heyes]

Joran was detained by local authorities on reasonable suspicion of involvement in the alleged crimes of kidnap, rape & murder. Please link to published statements from a witness who corroborates Joran's claims, since you say there are plenty available, TIA.


You will be waiting a loooooog time for a link that anyone can corroborate jorans claims my friend.

[Heyes]

Based entirely on the ASSumption that there is a victim in this case, which nobody to date has been able to prove in any way shape or form. Unless of course we are talking about J2K and their families and the good and generous people of Aruba and the Netherlands who have been dragged through the mud.

What would you do if Nat comes forth, oh some time after her mother is well and truly dead and says "yeah I just couldn't stand it anymore, I ran away"?

Better scenario than believing your daughter is dead on day 10 of an investigation.

imo

The kalpoes and the vandersloots are not victims. lol lol
How could people that lied and lied and lied to railroad a kidnapping, rape and murder investigation be victims?

[Heyes]

Then please explain how this pious family endorsed a week long stay on a "filthy" island "surrounded by water" where virginal, naive Nat was able to drink from early morning until late at night on an all inclusive funfilled adventure.


Well let's put it this way..
All was well until Natalee left with joran, deepak and satish.
And if she was as you claim, a virginal and naive young woman then that's exactly what predators look for.
The predators then took her away never to be seen again.
Enter paulus.
IMO

[ortiga]

Natalee was drinking and socializing with some of her classmates in a bar on the last night of her vacation. I haven't heard anyone but Joran claim Natalee invited him to dance or that she invited him to take a jello shot. Do you have a link statements from a witness who has corroborated Joran's claims? TIA. And if she did invite him to dance, or do a jello shot, so what?
This doesn't imply she wanted to become the victim of kidnap, rape or murder, which are the alleged crimes Joran is suspected of committing.


As I have corrected you before, the fact remains that the crimes were not alleged to have benn committed, alleged in legal sense means indicted. They were suspected of having possibly committed a suspected, possible rape, etc. Key word there suspect, suspect crime etc.

IMO









i

[ortiga]

Joran was detained by local authorities on reasonable suspicion of involvement in the alleged crimes of kidnap, rape & murder. Please link to published statements from a witness who corroborates Joran's claims, since you say there are plenty available, TIA.

Do I get a sense of deja vu here...all over again. Natalees own mother did not deny seeing the photos of NAtalee up there on the bar as Joran describes. This was said on ACA as Beth Twitty sat right there and did not correct the interviewer.

What amazes me and makes me smile a little is the way some try to deny that those provocative acts took place, initiated by Natalee. Whereas I say sure they happened but so what....most 18 year olds do those things.

IMO

[Heyes]

Just a reminder!




You will be waiting a loooooong time for a link that anyone can corroborate jorans claims my friend.

[JustMyOpinion]

What amazes me and makes me smile a little is the way some try to deny that those provocative acts took place, initiated by Natalee. Whereas I say sure they happened but so what....most 18 year olds do those things.

IMO

I wasn't there.
I haven't read/heard anyone but Joran describe this, if you believe him, that is entirely your choice.
It doesn't surprise me that Joran claims she initiated and he felt provoked.
IMO, Joran speaks and behaves like a sexual predator.

[Heyes]

I wasn't there.
I haven't read/heard anyone but Joran describe this, if you believe him, that is entirely your choice.
It doesn't surprise me that Joran claims she initiated and he felt provoked.
IMO, Joran speaks and behaves like a sexual predator.

Yup!
Blame the victim.
Classic.

[JustMyOpinion]

As I have corrected you before, the fact remains that the crimes were not alleged to have benn committed, alleged in legal sense means indicted.

IMOi

Persons were detained on reasonable suspicion of committing specific, alleged crimes.
Allegations are statements of claimed facts which remain unproven, IMO.

[Sturgeon_Moon]

If she hadn't trusted those young men, if she hadn't gotten in that car, if she had not, like so many other teenagers, viewed herself as invincible...

Natalee Holloway would have turned 21 years old today.

http://www.al.com/living/birminghamnews/kkemp.ssf?/base/living/1192954502321160.xml&coll=2

It seems Beth does, indeed, have much to celebrate.

http://steelturman.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/birthday_card.JPG

[No Nic]

Alleged by beth, very good.

According to the FBI Natalee is just another missing person.

Not even an "imo" in this post :rolleyes:

I don't think it was only Beth that "alledged".

Earlier, Aruba's attorney general, Karin Janssen, told The Associated Press that the young men had been charged with murder since their arrest three weeks ago.

"The three have been charged with the murder of Natalee Holloway from the beginning" of their arrest 10 days after the young woman went missing May 30, she said in a recorded interview. "At the time, we didn't want to upset the family talking about murder while they searched."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/30/world/main705394.shtml

A lot of us are still wondering what happened with these "charges", I don't think the Pros. would make these statements without proof.

imo

[No Nic]

Any evidence that she didn't turn 21 today, other than beth's demand for a death certificate on day 10 of the investigation? Nat just might be curious enough to wander outside the constraint's of her mother's grasp. Lucky Nat!!

Still waiting for the proof that Beth demanded a death certificate on day 10.
Why can you never provide that? Could it be that this is just another made up LIE to further slam the victims mother? YEP !!

imo

[ortiga]

I wasn't there.
I haven't read/heard anyone but Joran describe this, if you believe him, that is entirely your choice.
It doesn't surprise me that Joran claims she initiated and he felt provoked.
IMO, Joran speaks and behaves like a sexual predator.

Please link to Joran saying that he felt provoked. TIA

And yes, I do believe that Beth showed the interviewer on ACA the photos, or the interviewer would never have said on international TV, with Beth sitting right there close enough to stab a dagger, that Beth didn't deny seeing the photos of Natalee up there on the bar as Joran had described.

IMO

[ortiga]

I gather from the tone of your post that a person who can recite bible verses "by the hundreds", or someone who teaches bibleschool is somehow a negative thing? I feel that some on here find Natalee's deep commitment in her religion is somehow a negative thing. :shrug:
joran and his family don't believe in any religion, IIRC so i guess it's open season on Natalee's???
I find the mocking of Beth's and Natalee's faith offensive an insulting.

Just out of curiosity, for those that have the book in their possession, does she ever say what or who she has faith in? I have faith in lots of things. And, when someone puts "faith" out there on a book cover, when their own behavior contradicted what I do call "faith", sure I have the right to question what faith she is talking about, because I know of no faith practiced in the USA, or anywhere else that allows it's members to get up there on TV and call boys gangrapers kidnappers and to say they took Natalee's life.

So, I would say that "faith" is open to questioning when it is being used to explain things that I have never heard explained by "faith". Faith in what?

You may find the question insulting, but potential purchasers of her book on faith and kidnapping are entitled to know what faith, and what kidnapping.

IMO

[Grandad]

Not even an "imo" in this post :rolleyes:

I don't think it was only Beth that "alledged".



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/30/world/main705394.shtml

A lot of us are still wondering what happened with these "charges", I don't think the Pros. would make these statements without proof.

imo

This story came from an Associated Press reporter.

At least one AP reporter was fired for the inaccuracy of his reports.

[ortiga]

If she hadn't trusted those young men, if she hadn't gotten in that car, if she had not, like so many other teenagers, viewed herself as invincible...

Natalee Holloway would have turned 21 years old today.

http://www.al.com/living/birminghamnews/kkemp.ssf?/base/living/1192954502321160.xml&coll=2

It seems Beth does, indeed, have much to celebrate.

http://steelturman.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/birthday_card.JPG

Beth has a new rich guy, a new face, a new faith, a new teeny tiny high accent-less interview voice, and lots of attention due to using Natalee's name for profit. All of the above seems guaranteed to keep her face and name before the public and the donation buttons well attended.

It seems Beth does, indeed have much to celebrate.

IMO

[No Nic]

This story came from an Associated Press reporter.

At least one AP reporter was fired for the inaccuracy of his reports.

Yes, with a direct quote from the Aruban prosecutor:

"The three have been charged with the murder of Natalee Holloway from the beginning" of their arrest 10 days after the young woman went missing May 30, she said in a recorded interview. "At the time, we didn't want to upset the family talking about murder while they searched."

Every member of the ALE, prosecutors office and other high officials involved in this case should have been fired for spouting the garbage and/or "inaccuracies" (nice word for outright lies, imo) throughout the investigation and then either not following through or saying "OOPS misinformation".

imo

[No Nic]

Beth has a new rich guy, a new face, a new faith, a new teeny tiny high accent-less interview voice, and lots of attention due to using Natalee's name for profit. All of the above seems guaranteed to keep her face and name before the public and the donation buttons well attended.

It seems Beth does, indeed have much to celebrate.

IMO

Meeeeoooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww !!

imo

[JustMyOpinion]

Please link to Joran saying that he felt provoked. TIA


IMO

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161233,00.html

[Heyes]

A sexual predator has to be coaxed into coming to a bar which is usually slow on Sundays?

A sexual predator is asked to take jello shots off a woman's navel?

A sexual predator is asked to dance?

A sexual predator says "no" to intercourse because he has no condom?

Sounds to me in the Natalee scenario that she was the sexual predator.

Of course it sounds that way. To those that believe one, two or all of jorans lies.

Natalee as the predator? LMAO LOL LOL LOL
Arubas' motto :Blame the victim and her mother, it's jorans only defense. lol lol lol

imo

[Heyes]

Still waiting for the proof that Beth demanded a death certificate on day 10.
Why can you never provide that? Could it be that this is just another made up LIE to further slam the victims mother? YEP !!

imo

Of course!
After all the other BS that came out of aruba and was proven false, blaming Natalee and her mother is all they have left for a defense.
It's not working.
There are never links that prove jorans made up little stories. The jello shot? nope, only jorans words on that one. I'm going to go out on a limb and say. IT NEVER HAPPENED. even if it did, and that's a big if. It didn't give joran the right to kidnap, rape and murder her.
Next!
imo

[Heyes]

Meeeeoooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww !!

imo


Isn't jealousy ugly?

imo

[Grandad]

<snip:>
It didn't give joran the right to kidnap, rape and murder her.

imo

And nothing, including "IMO" in your post, gives you the right to claim he did.

[Grandad]

Of course it sounds that way. To those that believe one, two or all of jorans lies.

Natalee as the predator? LMAO LOL LOL LOL
Arubas' motto :Blame the victim and her mother, it's jorans only defense. lol lol lol

imo

You should learn how to use Google. Aruba's motto is, "One Happy Island."

[ortiga]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161233,00.html


Let me know when you find one where he said he was "provoked" as you stated.

[ortiga]

Meeeeoooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww !!

imo

That is indeed a lot to be jealous of. Expeshally the opportunity to make some bucks off your daughter's name. Can you imagine what would happen if Natalee came back? I can imagine that would be Twittys worse nightmare.....OMG can you imagine the people that would want their money back.

IMO

[paralegallin]

Of course!
After all the other BS that came out of aruba and was proven false, blaming Natalee and her mother is all they have left for a defense.
It's not working.
There are never links that prove jorans made up little stories. The jello shot? nope, only jorans words on that one. I'm going to go out on a limb and say. IT NEVER HAPPENED. even if it did, and that's a big if. It didn't give joran the right to kidnap, rape and murder her.
Next!
imo

Isn't there a picture of the jello shot incident, or am I remembering incorrectly?

[ortiga]

Isn't there a picture of the jello shot incident, or am I remembering incorrectly?

The pictures were talked about on ACA, where Beth didn't deny seeing them, but I don't think we have seen them yet. I think the cameras were confiscated by the "family", and we will probably never see the photos.

[fairmaiden]

O/T .... I have the board set up with 20 posts per page. The amount of pages shows it to be at "37". However, I can't get past page "34" .... even if I TRY to go to Page 37. It keeps coming back to page 34.

Anyone else having problems ??

[fairmaiden]

The pictures were talked about on ACA, where Beth didn't deny seeing them, but I don't think we have seen them yet. I think the cameras were confiscated by the "family", and we will probably never see the photos.

I think you might be right about that, ortiga . I believe that's why the cameras were taken from the students immediately after arriving on American soil. Why on earth would they take them otherwise .... if not to remove pictures they didn't want viewed ??

JMO

[HiLife]

I think you might be right about that, ortiga . I believe that's why the cameras were taken from the students immediately after arriving on American soil. Why on earth would they take them otherwise .... if not to remove pictures they didn't want viewed ??

JMO

I realize this explanation is quite humdrum as opposed to the "what are they hiding" speculations, but the link has been posted here many, many, many times (yes, you were here at the time, too) that the cameras were confiscated and given to the FBI.

Facts can be so boring, I know. :read:

jmo

[HiLife]

Of course!

After all the other BS that came out of aruba and was proven false, blaming Natalee and her mother is all they have left for a defense.

It's not working.

There are never links that prove jorans made up little stories. The jello shot? nope, only jorans words on that one. I'm going to go out on a limb and say. IT NEVER HAPPENED. even if it did, and that's a big if. It didn't give joran the right to kidnap, rape and murder her.

Next!

imo

This post is brilliant. It is the bottom line in every respect.

Everything that has surfaced has only vindicated Beth and the Holloway family and has validated everything they have stated about the Island and what happened there. You're right, the only thing left to do is to deflect by going on the vicious attack.

NOTHING has given Joran any credibility - in fact, it has had the opposite effect - any new information from or about Joran just digs a deeper hole for him, creates more questions, skepticism and suspicion.

Funny how that works, eh?

jmo

[Heyes]

Oh, and you forgot - "NINGUNO." :D

I'd love to see the "Beth wanting a DC in 10 days" link, too! Non-existent, IMO.

Unlike all the other re-hashed links constantly linked here, like the cameras given to the FBI link, I mean, it's not a link that has ever been posted anywhere - not even once!

jmo


And... in Beths book we know that the camera's were not confiscated immediatly by anyone. Beth and her group had to get ahold of the students once they made it home , so they could look through their pictures to see if they had a picture of Natalee taken in aruba. They were looking for the most recent pictures of her for the search. Soooo that debunks the confiscated immediatly rumor that has been circulating here for so long. Funny but even with all this information out now, it looks as it if the pr machine in aruba believes that if they repeat it enough someone might believe them. lol lol
Unfortunatly for them we all witnessed this debacle and jorans/paulus/kalpoe lies and demeaner with our own eyes.
IMO

[Heyes]

Another thing "they" (you know who you are :D ) refuse to admit. There has never been proof that Natalee offered JORAN A jello shot, pictures or no pictures, NO ONE but Joran has ever said Natalee gave him a jello shot.........and once again....we know how much of what he says we can believe....IMO- Zip, Zero, not a single word. To state this as fact can only be dubbed as more of the Aruban Misinformation Campaign strategy.


imo

Nope, not one person can corroborate the jello shot. I don't believe it happened. But for conversation sake let's say joran managed to tell the truth about one thing and she did do a jello shot. Please explain how that makes it permissable to use that as a reason for joran to take advantage of her? All this little story seems to do is justify jorans sexual advances towards the victm, at least in his and his supporters minds. It's the "She wanted it" excuse.
Aruba's motto: Blame the victim and her mother.
They are decades behind regarding victims rights over there. From what I can tell they are decades behind in alot of attitudes. Kinda neanderthal if ya ask me.
imo

[fairmaiden]

<<snip>>
I'm going to go out on a limb and say. IT NEVER HAPPENED. even if it did, and that's a big if. It didn't give joran the right to kidnap, rape and murder her.
Next!
imo

Nope, not one person can corroborate the jello shot. I don't believe it happened. But for conversation sake let's say joran managed to tell the truth about one thing and she did do a jello shot. Please explain how that makes it permissable to use that as a reason for joran to take advantage of her? All this little story seems to do is justify jorans sexual advances towards the victm, at least in his and his supporters minds. It's the "She wanted it" excuse.
Aruba's motto: Blame the victim and her mother.
They are decades behind regarding victims rights over there. From what I can tell they are decades behind in alot of attitudes. Kinda neanderthal if ya ask me.
imo

Heyes .... "Misinformation Campaign" seems to be the buzz phrase now. In the first post I quoted .... if someone entirely new were to visit this board, they would think it was FACTUAL that Joran kidnapped, raped and murdered Natalee. I would definitely call that "misinformation". I don't know that Joran "took advantage" of her either. You have a tendency to make all of this appear FACTUAL.

I would like to know if there is "corroboration" of Beth's entire book ?? From what I understand, it is taken from her "journal" .... her "memory" ??? I don't know that any of THAT is accurate. How can you know ??

JMO

[Heyes]

Heyes .... "Misinformation Campaign" seems to be the buzz phrase now. In the first post I quoted .... if someone entirely new were to visit this board, they would think it was FACTUAL that Joran kidnapped, raped and murdered Natalee. I would definitely call that "misinformation". I don't know that Joran "took advantage" of her either. You have a tendency to make all of this appear FACTUAL.

I would like to know if there is "corroboration" of Beth's entire book ?? From what I understand, it is taken from her "journal" .... her "memory" ??? I don't know that any of THAT is accurate. How can you know ??

JMO

"Misinformation campaign" came from aruba, it was coined right after they claimed that one of the suspects confessed and Natalee's body was found! oops!
joran is the primary suspect along with the kalpoes in the kidnapping, rape and murder of Natalee Holloway. I happen to believe they got that one right. Well, it did take Beth and many others to show the ale that the security guards that the suspects pointed to were not involved and that joran was lying about the drop off at the hotel. But you know that.
If people find my posts factual they should read the joran supporters posts!!! Now those are something. :rolleyes: Rumors listed as if truth.
We never see you complaining about those.
I don't have a problem if anyone thinks that I feel joran is guilty as the day is long.
As far as Beths book goes. Since you refuse to read it you don't know that many times she mentioned that she was glad she had witness's to each and every event aruba put her through. Now until those many, many people that came and went from aruba to help Beth, declare that her book is not factual, then I might change my mind. For now, I'll stick with believing what she went through and what they witnessed during the debacle called an investigation into her daughters disappearance.
Do you have a link showing that anyone that was with Beth is claiming the book she wrote is not factual??? I sure haven't seen one.
IMO Beth is telling the truth.
joran obvioulsy is not.
imo

[fairmaiden]

"Misinformation campaign" came from aruba, it was coined right after they claimed that one of the suspects confessed and Natalee's body was found! oops!
joran is the primary suspect along with the kalpoes in the kidnapping, rape and murder of Natalee Holloway. I happen to believe they got that one right. Well, it did take Beth and many others to show the ale that the security guards that the suspects pointed to were not involved and that joran was lying about the drop off at the hotel. But you know that.
If people find my posts factual they should read the joran supporters posts!!! Now those are something. :rolleyes: Rumors listed as if truth.
We never see you complaining about those.
I don't have a problem if anyone thinks that I feel joran is guilty as the day is long.
As far as Beths book goes. Since you refuse to read it you don't know that many times she mentioned that she was glad she had witness's to each and every event aruba put her through. Now until those many, many people that came and went from aruba to help Beth, declare that her book is not factual, then I might change my mind. For now, I'll stick with believing what she went through and what they witnessed during the debacle called an investigation into her daughters disappearance.
Do you have a link showing that anyone that was with Beth is claiming the book she wrote is not factual??? I sure haven't seen one.
IMO Beth is telling the truth.
joran obvioulsy is not.
imo

There are many rumors which appear on this board, Heyes. Are you saying those just come from "Joran supporters"??

"We never see you complain about those ". I don't monitor the board, Heyes. I took issue with your post, because you stated, as if it were fact, that Joran "kidnapped, raped and murdered Natalee". I took issue with it because I haven't seen any proof of that. Have you seen actual proof of a kidnap, a rape, and a murder ??

JMO

[Heyes]

There are many rumors which appear on this board, Heyes. Are you saying those just come from "Joran supporters"??

"We never see you complain about those ". I don't monitor the board, Heyes. I took issue with your post, because you stated, as if it were fact, that Joran "kidnapped, raped and murdered Natalee". I took issue with it because I haven't seen any proof of that. Have you seen actual proof of a kidnap, a rape, and a murder ??

JMO

I agree with JMO. There obviously has been enough evidence to hold them, maintain their suspect status, even beyond the 2 year mark. Finally the complete search of the vandersloots and kalpoes, ( I don't remember what they did at the kalpoes), the case is still open and I'm hoping for some arrests. I don't hold my breath of course. Hoping the Dr. Phil case goes forward also, but the way it looks, it very well may be dismissed.
IMO

[No Nic]

There are many rumors which appear on this board, Heyes. Are you saying those just come from "Joran supporters"??

"We never see you complain about those ". I don't monitor the board, Heyes. I took issue with your post, because you stated, as if it were fact, that Joran "kidnapped, raped and murdered Natalee". I took issue with it because I haven't seen any proof of that. Have you seen actual proof of a kidnap, a rape, and a murder ??

JMO

IMO, this is just about as close to "proof" as we are going to get (at least from Aruba).

Aruba's attorney general, Karin Janssen, told The Associated Press that the young men had been charged with murder since their arrest three weeks ago.

"The three have been charged with the murder of Natalee Holloway from the beginning" of their arrest 10 days after the young woman went missing May 30, she said in a recorded interview. "At the time, we didn't want to upset the family talking about murder while they searched."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/30/world/main705394.shtml

I would like to have an answer to What happened to these CHARGES??? While this is not actual "proof", there is only one way to read these words from the prosecutor who had all the files and evidence pertaining to this case.

imo

[HiLife]

IMO, this is just about as close to "proof" as we are going to get (at least from Aruba).

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/30/world/main705394.shtml

I would like to have an answer to What happened to these CHARGES??? While this is not actual "proof", there is only one way to read these words from the prosecutor who had all the files and evidence pertaining to this case.

imo

This is a terrific link! Remember the endless lectures and parsing regarding the wording? Too bad we didnt have this link, then. They were "charged." Yet another debunking.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/30/world/main705394.shtml


"The three have been charged with the murder of Natalee Holloway from the beginning" of their arrest 10 days after the young woman went missing May 30, she said in a recorded interview. "At the time, we didn't want to upset the family talking about murder while they searched."

However, Janssen said, the charges were not announced at the time to protect the feelings of the family of the missing 18-year-old. The attorney general and other Aruban officials have said for weeks that no one has been charged in the case.

jmo

[HiLife]

One more thing, Fair, have you ever seen "proof" that Beth asked for a death certificate 10 days after Natalee went missing? Have you ever seen "proof" that Natalee gave JORAN a jello shot? I know you haven't, none of us has seen one iota of proof of either and it is stated as a FACT by your side of the fence over and over and YOU never question that. Wonder why?

imo

I know.....but I can't say. ;)

Like with all the other rumors, these will probably soon be debunked (as non-existent links to scurrilous rumors usually are). As I said earlier, the rumors are much more exciting than plain old, boring facts.

jmo

[fairmaiden]

One more thing, Fair, have you ever seen "proof" that Beth asked for a death certificate 10 days after Natalee went missing? Have you ever seen "proof" that Natalee gave JORAN a jello shot? I know you haven't, none of us has seen one iota of proof of either and it is stated as a FACT by your side of the fence over and over and YOU never question that. Wonder why?

imo

No Nic .... Both you and Heyes seem to feel I should be responsible for taking issue with something I might believe, just because someone "on my side of the fence" posted it. It's been obvious to me, since the day I started posting on messageboards, those who are "like-minded" NEVER disagree with anyone "on their side of the fence". That, by the way, includes "your side of the fence". That's really a silly argument, IMO.

I took issue with Heyes' post because of the issues I stated.

JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

I realize this explanation is quite humdrum as opposed to the "what are they hiding" speculations, but the link has been posted here many, many, many times (yes, you were here at the time, too) that the cameras were confiscated and given to the FBI.

Facts can be so boring, I know. :read:

jmo


I agree that students were asked to provide their cameras, some apparently did so, and the FBI checked them for potential clues/evidence, IMO
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/48hours/main1430644.shtml
SNIP:The photo, shown publicly for the first time by 48 Hours, was discovered by the FBI in the camera of one of Natalee's classmates

[JustMyOpinion]

Heyes .... if someone entirely new were to visit this board, they would think it was FACTUAL that Joran kidnapped, raped and murdered Natalee. I would definitely call that "misinformation".
JMO


I disagree.
If someone "new" read the board, they would likely conclude it is factual that Joran was detained ( and his detention prolonged) by local authorities on reasonable suspicion of involvement in alleged crimes of kidnap, rape & murder, and the presumed victim is Natalee Holloway. JMO.

[No Nic]

No Nic .... Both you and Heyes seem to feel I should be responsible for taking issue with something I might believe, just because someone "on my side of the fence" posted it. It's been obvious to me, since the day I started posting on messageboards, those who are "like-minded" NEVER disagree with anyone "on their side of the fence". That, by the way, includes "your side of the fence". That's really a silly argument, IMO.

I took issue with Heyes' post because of the issues I stated.

JMO

Oh, I thought you were taking "issue" with there being "no proof" to what Heyes stated. I guess, if it is something YOU believe, then you need no "proof" when it is from someone on "your side of the fence". That is what I got from your above post anyway, forgive me if I read it wrong.

At least I posted a link showing why some believe JK2 guilty, a direct quote from the prosecutor, but since it does not fit with your side of the fence it is totally discounted. No one and I mean no one has ever attempted to show "proof" that Beth asked for a death certificate or that Natalee gave Joran a jello shot. Because there is no proof/link to those lies.

imo

[fairmaiden]

<<snip>>
There are never links that prove jorans made up little stories. The jello shot? nope, only jorans words on that one. I'm going to go out on a limb and say. IT NEVER HAPPENED. even if it did, and that's a big if. It didn't give joran the right to kidnap, rape and murder her.
Next!
imo

I disagree.
If someone "new" read the board, they would likely conclude it is factual that Joran was detained ( and his detention prolonged) by local authorities on reasonable suspicion of involvement in alleged crimes of kidnap, rape & murder, and the presumed victim is Natalee Holloway. JMO.

Well, of course you disagree, JMO. That is your right. That's the beauty of messageboards, we CAN post our opinions, whether or not they agree with anyone else's.

However, if someone who had no knowledge of this case ((and there are many)) signed onto this board for the first time today .... I firmly believe they would read that post, and think Joran had been found guilty of kidnap, rape and murder, when that, in fact, is not true.

Just My Opinion

[fairmaiden]

Oh, I thought you were taking "issue" with there being "no proof" to what Heyes stated. I guess, if it is something YOU believe, then you need no "proof" when it is from someone on "your side of the fence". That is what I got from your above post anyway, forgive me if I read it wrong.

At least I posted a link showing why some believe JK2 guilty, a direct quote from the prosecutor, but since it does not fit with your side of the fence it is totally discounted. No one and I mean no one has ever attempted to show "proof" that Beth asked for a death certificate or that Natalee gave Joran a jello shot. Because there is no proof/link to those lies.

imo

No Nic .... It hasn't been proven in a court of law that Joran raped, kidnapped, and murdered Natalee. I was taking issue with the premise Heyes posted that as if it WERE proven.

If someone posts a link about a jello shot given my Natalee .... are you saying it's my responsibility to post a link?? Then, I could ask you to post a link where it says it has been proven Joran kidnapped, raped and murdered Natalee. Of COURSE some believe Joran et al are guilty .... we ((all of us have discussed it for a long time)). We also know there are others who think no evidence, or proof has been presented as to those heinous crimes.

I don't hold you responsible for anything anyone on "your side of the fence" posts. Why would I ?? I also don't tell you to disagree with anyone on "your side of the fence". Why would I do THAT ??

The subject of links was not brought up by me. I took exception to something Heyes posted .... isn't that why we're ((all of us)) here??

JMO

[ortiga]

One more thing, Fair, have you ever seen "proof" that Beth asked for a death certificate 10 days after Natalee went missing? Have you ever seen "proof" that Natalee gave JORAN a jello shot? I know you haven't, none of us has seen one iota of proof of either and it is stated as a FACT by your side of the fence over and over and YOU never question that. Wonder why?

imo

How does that work when a side of a fence states something?

[ortiga]

I agree that students were asked to provide their cameras, some apparently did so, and the FBI checked them for potential clues/evidence, IMO
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/48hours/main1430644.shtml
SNIP:The photo, shown publicly for the first time by 48 Hours, was discovered by the FBI in the camera of one of Natalee's classmates

We don't know how many of the photos were given to ALE by the FBI, we don't know how many photos were erased from the cameras before they were given to the FBI.

other bits from your link:

"She was, I think not differently from other students. She was having a great time and she was using … doing that," says Dompig. "Using way too much alcohol in combinations which could basically be lethal."
----------
(And if she entered the water in that condition after using way too much alcohol in combinations which could basically be lethal?
-------------


Police interviews with hotel staff, local bartenders, and her friends reveal that Natalee had spent much of the day with a drink in her hand.

"Do you know if Natalee could handle her alcohol?" Roberts asked.

"Yes," said Cain. "She was never somebody to be out of control if she had been drinking at all."
------------------------------------------
So Cain was implying that she drank in Alabama too? The mother denied that Natalee ever drank. Basically mostly quoted bible verses the best in her class, and studied a lot.
-------------------------------------------
"When you hear stories, like people started drinking in mid-afternoon and drank through the night. Does that sound accurate?" Roberts asked.

"Yes," Claire Fierman said.

Fierman and Cain agreed that the drinking was kind of excessive. "
----------------------------------------------
Asked if he has been able to confirm whether Natalee purchased or consumed illegal narcotics during her stay in Aruba, Dompig says, "We have statements claiming that she, that she had drugs."

What kind of drugs?

"I cannot say," Dompig replied.

Dompig notes that police don't have any proof that Natalee used drugs but "that they saw her with drugs in her possession."
---------------------------------------------
Last fall, Twitty called for a boycott of Aruba. The island’s tourism industry has suffered: Travel bookings are off more than 4 percent from a year ago.

Does she still support a boycott of Aruba?

"The only leverage that we have in getting any traction in the investigation is when they feel the effects of a boycott," says Twitty.
-----------------------------------------------
I thought that Beth states in the book she didn't call for a boycott? That it was Dr. Phil?
---------------------------------------------
Twitty claims that Joran was clear with the police about one thing — that he had sex with her daughter the night she disappeared.

"I had access to several statements, and in one of Joran's statements he's describing Natalie as she's falling asleep and waking up, falling asleep and waking up repeatedly. And, as she's doing this, he is explaining, he's very sexually explicit, graphically detailing what he is doing to Natalie. OK?" Twitty said.

Twitty and her attorney would not share those documents with 48 Hours. In spite of her claim, Dompig says there is no proof of sexual assault.

Asked if Joran van der Sloot ever confessed to being sexually intimate with Natalee, Dompig says he never did. "
------------------------------------------------------
"We’re not talking about killers here," he says.
------------------------------

Natalee’s parents have filed a civil suit against Joran van der Sloot and his father, but Twitty knows she may never learn the truth about what happened to her daughter.

Asked what gives her hope today, she replied, "I don't have any."
--------------------------------------------------
I thought the name of her book was hope and faith and kidnapping? Was the "hope" a little late blooming, just in time to write a book?

IMO

[JustMyOpinion]

[QUOTE=ortiga;9032390]The FBI was not in charge of the case. QUOTE]

The FBI assigned agents to the case, conducted interviews of various individuals, reviewed/analyzed evidence they obtained and analyzed/reviewed some evidence that officials in Aruba shared.
The FBI had no jurisdiction in Aruba. Aruba is 100 percent responsible for the failure to solve this case, iMO.

[Heyes]

snipped for space
The FBI was not in charge of the case. And the cameras were probably cleansed anyway.

The sun "comes up" in the east, and posters live in potentially all time zones of the world, so if you get up early and see that someone has posted before you, it could be afternoon when they posted.

It must drive you crazy to watch CNN and have to listen to all those foreign accents.

Too bad the FBI wasn't in charge of the case. We would see joran locked up and getting ready for trial about now.
paulus would be right beside him.
imo


Aruba's motto - Blame the victim and her mother, it's the only defense for joran that we can come up with.

Is your last sentence an attempt at an insult????? It makes no sense, kinda like jorans defense.
imo

[Heyes]

[QUOTE=ortiga;9032390]The FBI was not in charge of the case. QUOTE]

The FBI assigned agents to the case, conducted interviews of various individuals, reviewed/analyzed evidence they obtained and analyzed/reviewed some evidence that officials in Aruba shared.
The FBI had no jurisdiction in Aruba. Aruba is 100 percent responsible for the failure to solve this case, iMO.

aruba didn't want the FBI involved.
aruba didn't want the Dutch involved.
aruba didn't allow Tim Miller to continue his searches.
What is aruba hiding?????
Can you say cover-up?
Corruption?
Murder?
IMO

[cassidy]

[QUOTE=JustMyOpinion;9032429]

aruba didn't want the FBI involved.
aruba didn't want the Dutch involved.
aruba didn't allow Tim Miller to continue his searches.
What is aruba hiding?????
Can you say cover-up?
Corruption?
Murder?
IMO

FBI involvement:
http://www.slate.com/id/2120338/

This explains it quite clearly.

[fairmaiden]

We don't know how many of the photos were given to ALE by the FBI, we don't know how many photos were erased from the cameras before they were given to the FBI.

other bits from your link:

"She was, I think not differently from other students. She was having a great time and she was using … doing that," says Dompig. "Using way too much alcohol in combinations which could basically be lethal."
----------
(And if she entered the water in that condition after using way too much alcohol in combinations which could basically be lethal?
-------------


Police interviews with hotel staff, local bartenders, and her friends reveal that Natalee had spent much of the day with a drink in her hand.

"Do you know if Natalee could handle her alcohol?" Roberts asked.

"Yes," said Cain. "She was never somebody to be out of control if she had been drinking at all."
------------------------------------------
So Cain was implying that she drank in Alabama too? The mother denied that Natalee ever drank. Basically mostly quoted bible verses the best in her class, and studied a lot.
-------------------------------------------
"When you hear stories, like people started drinking in mid-afternoon and drank through the night. Does that sound accurate?" Roberts asked.

"Yes," Claire Fierman said.

Fierman and Cain agreed that the drinking was kind of excessive. "
----------------------------------------------
Asked if he has been able to confirm whether Natalee purchased or consumed illegal narcotics during her stay in Aruba, Dompig says, "We have statements claiming that she, that she had drugs."

What kind of drugs?

"I cannot say," Dompig replied.

Dompig notes that police don't have any proof that Natalee used drugs but "that they saw her with drugs in her possession."
---------------------------------------------
Last fall, Twitty called for a boycott of Aruba. The island’s tourism industry has suffered: Travel bookings are off more than 4 percent from a year ago.

Does she still support a boycott of Aruba?

"The only leverage that we have in getting any traction in the investigation is when they feel the effects of a boycott," says Twitty.
-----------------------------------------------
I thought that Beth states in the book she didn't call for a boycott? That it was Dr. Phil?
---------------------------------------------
Twitty claims that Joran was clear with the police about one thing — that he had sex with her daughter the night she disappeared.

"I had access to several statements, and in one of Joran's statements he's describing Natalie as she's falling asleep and waking up, falling asleep and waking up repeatedly. And, as she's doing this, he is explaining, he's very sexually explicit, graphically detailing what he is doing to Natalie. OK?" Twitty said.

Twitty and her attorney would not share those documents with 48 Hours. In spite of her claim, Dompig says there is no proof of sexual assault.

Asked if Joran van der Sloot ever confessed to being sexually intimate with Natalee, Dompig says he never did. "
------------------------------------------------------
"We’re not talking about killers here," he says.
------------------------------

Natalee’s parents have filed a civil suit against Joran van der Sloot and his father, but Twitty knows she may never learn the truth about what happened to her daughter.

Asked what gives her hope today, she replied, "I don't have any."
--------------------------------------------------
I thought the name of her book was hope and faith and kidnapping? Was the "hope" a little late blooming, just in time to write a book?

IMO

Oh .... the "inconsistencies".

JMO

[ortiga]

[QUOTE=ortiga;9032390]The FBI was not in charge of the case. QUOTE]

The FBI assigned agents to the case, conducted interviews of various individuals, reviewed/analyzed evidence they obtained and analyzed/reviewed some evidence that officials in Aruba shared.
The FBI had no jurisdiction in Aruba. Aruba is 100 percent responsible for the failure to solve this case, iMO.

Then how can giving the cameras to the FBI be justified? Why didn't they leave them with ALE, with the "coach" if they wanted to help with the investigation?

IMO

[ortiga]

Too bad the FBI wasn't in charge of the case. We would see joran locked up and getting ready for trial about now.
paulus would be right beside him.
imo


Aruba's motto - Blame the victim and her mother, it's the only defense for joran that we can come up with.

Is your last sentence an attempt at an insult????? It makes no sense, kinda like jorans defense.
imo

If the poster doesn't want to hear the word "ninguno" then IMO it would bother them to listen to CNN.

The boys are innocent until proven guilty. The MB students and Twitty are hiding important facts that could have helped solve the case.

IMO

[fairmaiden]

If the poster doesn't want to hear the word "ninguno" then IMO it would bother them to listen to CNN.

The boys are innocent until proven guilty. The MB students and Twitty are hiding important facts that could have helped solve the case.

IMO

Well, whatever those facts, ortiga, if there are any .... they're not important, it seems. According to some, this investigation should only be focused on Joran et al. The MB students were WELL out of Aruba .... and IF they had any important information .... it appears to be secondary. I happen to agree with you .... I believe the MB students know much more than they have told anyone .... that we know of anyway. I keep saying though .... I believe there is much we DON'T know.

JMO

[ortiga]

Well, whatever those facts, ortiga, if there are any .... they're not important, it seems. According to some, this investigation should only be focused on Joran et al. The MB students were WELL out of Aruba .... and IF they had any important information .... it appears to be secondary. I happen to agree with you .... I believe the MB students know much more than they have told anyone .... that we know of anyway. I keep saying though .... I believe there is much we DON'T know.

JMO

Hi FM,

IMO Beth will never cross the powers that be in MB, they are the dark forces she refers to in her book. They, the students and chaperones, probably got away with murder.

IMO

[JustMyOpinion]

[QUOTE=JustMyOpinion;9032429]

Then how can giving the cameras to the FBI be justified?IMO


Any evidence turned over to the FBI can be obtained by Aruban authorities using an MLAT procedure, this renders it admissable in Aruban/Dutch court, IMO This is proper protocol for international investigations conducted between countries with treaty in place, JMO.

[ortiga]

you have quite a love affair with the word xenophobia!
Can you say bait????
Ain't biting.
Can you provide links to the MB cover-up?

Can you provide any links to proof of rape, murder, kidnapping, serial sexual predatorship by the Aruban boys?

[ortiga]

Any evidence turned over to the FBI can be obtained by Aruban authorities using an MLAT procedure, this renders it admissable in Aruban/Dutch court, IMO This is proper protocol for international investigations conducted between countries with treaty in place, JMO.

The MB kids and chaperones were in Aruba, they should have cooperated with ALE WHILE they were in Aruba. The "coach" stayed behind, and so did one of the students that was awaiting her family for a different vacation, why did they not insist that the students cooperate by leaving cameras and cell phone photos to help the police find their friend. Oh never mind, I know the answer.

IMO

[JustMyOpinion]

The MB kids and chaperones were in Aruba, they should have cooperated with ALE WHILE they were in Aruba. IMO

No, they weren't "in Aruba". They flew back to the United States, except for one chaperone .

[No Nic]

I think a call for three links to your first 3 statements would be in line.


Can you say obfuscation, MB coverup, xenophobia?

I am sure you will get those links just as soon as you provide the link to Natalee giving Joran a jello shot, as you have been asked approx. a kazillion times.


Can you say rumor or another flat out lie?

imo

[HiLife]

Yup, it sure was.

For what it's worth, I thought so, too! :hat:

[Heyes]

The MB kids and chaperones were in Aruba, they should have cooperated with ALE WHILE they were in Aruba. The "coach" stayed behind, and so did one of the students that was awaiting her family for a different vacation, why did they not insist that the students cooperate by leaving cameras and cell phone photos to help the police find their friend. Oh never mind, I know the answer.

IMO
Well maybe if the beach patrol had taken this serious and at the very least pointed these people in the right direction, or if some slob cop could put his frosted flakes down long enough to pay attention to whats going on during his watch. maybe just maybe the police on aruba dropped that ball, Which imo, turned out to be something they manage to do at every turn. Had anyone taken this seriously in the beginning, results could have turned out different. Perhaps they would have stopped the students from leaving on their flight and confiscated the camera's and phones. But no,they were so confident that Natalee ended up in some random crack house and would be returned as soon as her money ran out. Beth even called Natalee's bank to prove to the knuckleheads that no activity had taken place. It's not the MB students at fault here.
In my opinion.

[ortiga]

No, they weren't "in Aruba". They flew back to the United States, except for one chaperone .

Sure they were in Aruba. 20 to 40 of the students saw her leave with the boys, according to the mother. Since she claimed later that it was a kidnapping and not a voluntary bar date, then 20 to 40 of the students saw her being kidnapped. Yet not one of them voluntarily stayed behind to search, and not one of them, according to Jug, even returned to search for a day. Also, one of the students did stay behind, I believe her name was Haleigh, to meet her own family. IIRC that girl was the one that started looking for Natalee in crack houses. For some reason she must have thought that Natalee might be in one.

IMO

[ortiga]

Well maybe if the beach patrol had taken this serious and at the very least pointed these people in the right direction, or if some slob cop could put his frosted flakes down long enough to pay attention to whats going on during his watch. maybe just maybe the police on aruba dropped that ball, Which imo, turned out to be something they manage to do at every turn. Had anyone taken this seriously in the beginning, results could have turned out different. Perhaps they would have stopped the students from leaving on their flight and confiscated the camera's and phones. But no,they were so confident that Natalee ended up in some random crack house and would be returned as soon as her money ran out. Beth even called Natalee's bank to prove to the knuckleheads that no activity had taken place. It's not the MB students at fault here.
In my opinion.

"slob cop"?

IMO It was a friend of Natalee's that recommended searching in, and I believe even searched herself in crack houses. Haleigh Uncapher, something like that. Why do you think that's the first place she thought of to look for Natalee?

IMO

[No Nic]

:confused: Glad it wasn't just me!

:confused: Wasn't just you 2 :shrug:

That came out of nowhere, imo. But...................... :patriot:


imo

[Heyes]

"slob cop"?

IMO It was a friend of Natalee's that recommended searching in, and I believe even searched herself in crack houses. Haleigh Uncapher, something like that. Why do you think that's the first place she thought of to look for Natalee?

IMO
I think we need a link for that one!

:rolleyes:

What are you insinuating regarding Natalee?

Back to the aruban motto : Blame the victim and her mother.
There is no other defense for joran.

[HiLife]

"slob cop"?

IMO It was a friend of Natalee's that recommended searching in, and I believe even searched herself in crack houses. Haleigh Uncapher, something like that. Why do you think that's the first place she thought of to look for Natalee?

IMO

That would be because it appears to be well known by the locals that the gov't enabled crack heads kidnap tourists and hold them at crack houses until their money is gone. Such a lovely place this Aruba............NOT !!

eta: could we have a link to Haleigh looking in crack houses or is this another outright lie made up on the internet?
imo


Man, oh, man. And the falsehoods keep-a-coming. I'd like to see that link, too. Along with the link proving the predator taking jello shots off of Natalee.

Scurrilous!

jmo

[Heyes]

Man, oh, man. And the falsehoods keep-a-coming. I'd like to see that link, too. Along with the link proving the predator taking jello shots off of Natalee.

Scurrilous!

jmo

I can sure see why jorans lies don't matter!
Amazing!

[HiLife]

I can sure see why jorans lies don't matter!
Amazing!

They "are not important." ;)

jmo

[HiLife]

I think we need a link for that one!

:rolleyes:

What are you insinuating regarding Natalee?

Back to the aruban motto : Blame the victim and her mother.
There is no other defense for joran.

The highlighted above is Sig Line material, Heyes.

It's not ALE's fault, nor the ones who are suspected of murder, kidnap or rape. It's MOMMY'S fault - or worse yet - it's the victim, Natalee's fault! :rolleyes:

jmo

[ortiga]

clipped

It's not ALE's fault, nor the ones who are suspected of murder, kidnap or rape. It's MOMMY'S fault - or worse yet - it's the victim, Natalee's fault! :rolleyes:

jmo

Who is "mommy"?

What is Natalee's fault, what is "mommy's" fault, and who is the proven "victim" in this case?

[JustMyOpinion]

"slob cop"?

IMO It was a friend of Natalee's that recommended searching in, and I believe even searched herself in crack houses. Haleigh Uncapher, something like that. Why do you think that's the first place she thought of to look for Natalee?

IMO

I haven't read a statement from this person saying she recommended searching in crack houses, do you have a link? TIA.

[No Nic]

"slob cop"?

IMO It was a friend of Natalee's that recommended searching in, and I believe even searched herself in crack houses. Haleigh Uncapher, something like that. Why do you think that's the first place she thought of to look for Natalee?

IMO

I haven't read a statement from this person saying she recommended searching in crack houses, do you have a link? TIA.

Many of us are waiting for "proof" of this and "proof" of Joran and Natalee's jello shot that this poster keeps putting on the board.

How about it, Ortiga? Do you have anything to back up your statements?

[terrysdoor]

Many of us are waiting for "proof" of this and "proof" of Joran and Natalee's jello shot that this poster keeps putting on the board.

How about it, Ortiga? Do you have anything to back up your statements?

Is there any "proof" of anything other than Natalee is missing? IMO everything else is just what peolpe have formed an opinion of what they have heard and we all know EVERYBODY in this case has given out misinfomation told different stories from the very beginning IMO

[No Nic]

Is that a question from you or from Phoenix?

Didn't see a question from Phoenix, but I did see one from myself, JustMyOpinion, HiLife and (I believe) Heyes requesting a link/proof that there was a jello shot between Natalee and Joran and proof that Natalee's friend was looking for her in crack houses. Don't have one? Yeah, we all know that !! Another rumor/lie about the victim DEBUNKED! Thanks.

imo

[ArubaSteve]

No Nic... Can you please be specific when you say "internet hate site in defense of Joran and Aruba"?

[HiLife]

Does this mean you won't provide a link subtantiating your allegation that Uncapher recommended looking in crack houses for Natalee, and your stated implication that Uncapher knew something about Natalee's prior conduct that would lead her to recommend looking there?

I love the professional way you ask this question, JMO. Your style is unique and appreciated.

Of course there is no proof or NO LINK substantiating the scurrilous allegations made about:

1) Uncapher and the crack houses

2) as well as to the Jello Shots

3) and to the "asking for the Death Certificate in 10 days."


Guess our questions have been cleared up about the rumors posted here. No proof. No links. Facts are boring. It's much more exciting to deal in rumors and ugly innuendo.

jmo

[ArubaSteve]

Is it improper to ask which web sites bash "the family". I know from this board that no one minds repeating what is said at Scared Monkeys. What is BHT bashing web sites people refer to?

[No Nic]

you said:

"Beth was not asked if Natalee did a jello shot with Joran. That has been the issue, not whether she participated in the act."

What does that sentence mean?

You'll have to go to the ACA program, the quotes are also listed on the public statements of beth and dave thread. I never said Beth was asked if Natalee did a jello shot with Joran. If you saw the show, you'll remember that Joran described the jello shot with Natalee, and then the interviewer said that Beth does not deny seeing the photos of Natalee up on the bar AS JORAN HAD DESCRIBED. Then, the interviewer asked Beth if it was possible that she did not know her daughter very well. Yes it was a rude question, somewhat like the statements Abrams ended up making towards her, but those questions have to be asked of someone that lies all the time.

Let me spell it out for you. While there may be an indication that Natalee was doing jello shots.........there is no proof that Joran was involved, other than Joran's own words...and speaking of someone that "lies all the time", it is obvious Joran get's the award.

IIRC, Joran spoke of the jello shots (ACA interview) as if he had no previous knowledge of them...HaHaHa...he was a VIP at CnC, but had never before seen a jello shot. :rolleyes: But some will take his word as the gospel. :rolleyes: if it fits their *defend Aruba at all costs" agenda.

imo

[No Nic]

No Nic... Can you please be specific when you say "internet hate site in defense of Joran and Aruba"?

Sure, that would be RU, where most (if not all) of these lies about Natalee and her family originate.

imo

[HiLife]

Is it improper to ask which web sites bash "the family". I know from this board that no one minds repeating what is said at Scared Monkeys. What is BHT bashing web sites people refer to?

I just PMd you the link, ArubaSteve. Happy reading. :read:

p.s. - no one here repeats anything from the SM site - I've never even been on it - but there is only ONE truth. Maybe that is why so many people say the same thing about Beth and her family. It is the TRUTH. Not a repetition of foul rumors.

jmo

[HiLife]

Let me spell it out for you. While there may be an indication that Natalee was doing jello shots.........there is no proof that Joran was involved, other than Joran's own words...and speaking of someone that "lies all the time", it is obvious Joran get's the award.

IIRC, Joran spoke of the jello shots (ACA interview) as if he had no previous knowledge of them...HaHaHa...he was a VIP at CnC, but had never before seen a jello shot. :rolleyes: But some will take his word as the gospel. :rolleyes: if it fits their *defend Aruba at all costs" agenda.

imo

Exactly. I believe Natalee did Jello Shots - but with her friends - NOT WITH JORAN.

As Heyes keeps asking, what does doing jello shots have to do with justifying Joran? Because Natalee did Jello Shots with her friends, she deserved to be murdered, raped or kidnapped? Absolutely NOT.

jmo

[ArubaSteve]

Hi Life. Thank you. I'm really not that well versed in Web Site etiquette. I don't even even know what RU is.

[HiLife]

Hi Life. Thank you. I'm really not that well versed in Web Site etiquette. I don't even even know what RU is.

RU is short for the name of the Link I just PMd you.

[cassidy]

RU is short for the name of the Link I just PMd you.

RU is short for Refugees Unleashed. Are we not permitted to type out the name? It spun off the original Court TV discussion board and is largely uncensored. I read there (and sometimes post) as well as at other Natalee discussion board sites. I find it interesting to read other people's views on things, even those that don't go along with what I happen to believe. As with this board, I don't agree with all things posted by every member. Freedom of speech is a wonderful right, as is the freedom to believe what one chooses to believe. What I believe happened to Natalee may not jive with what others believe happened to Natalee, but with the total lack of evidence, my belief is as good as anyone else's.

JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

What I believe happened to Natalee may not jive with what others believe happened to Natalee, but with the total lack of evidence, my belief is as good as anyone else's.

JMO


I agree that people are going to have varying beliefs and opinions about what happened to Natalee, and one opinion is not "better" than another.
A question: Do you believe judges prolonged detentions of three suspects, issued court orders, refused Joran's bid to be officially cleared and prolonged the investigation period based on a "total lack of evidence"?

[cassidy]

I agree that people are going to have varying beliefs and opinions about what happened to Natalee, and one opinion is not "better" than another.
A question: Do you believe judges prolonged detentions of three suspects, issued court orders, refused Joran's bid to be officially cleared and prolonged the investigation period based on a "total lack of evidence"?

Actually, yes I do. I think they were desperately looking for some sort of evidence in order to put an end to this. I don't believe they found it. I can see no reason why the officials of Aruba would NOT want to charge J2K if it was at all possible to do so.
That's just the way I se it.

[JustMyOpinion]

Actually, yes I do. I think they were desperately looking for some sort of evidence in order to put an end to this. I don't believe they found it. I can see no reason why the officials of Aruba would NOT want to charge J2K if it was at all possible to do so.
That's just the way I se it.

I don't think five judges made improper rulings which violated the rights of suspects, had they done this, J2K's lawyers would have appealed to the SC in the Netherlands, IMO. There IS sufficient evidence that supported prolonged detentions, court orders, and a prolonged investigation, IMO. Thus far it appears the prosecutor doesn't have sufficient evidence to go forward with a summation to court to PROVE the serious crimes she has alleged, IMO.

[ortiga]

Exactly. I believe Natalee did Jello Shots - but with her friends - NOT WITH JORAN.

As Heyes keeps asking, what does doing jello shots have to do with justifying Joran? Because Natalee did Jello Shots with her friends, she deserved to be murdered, raped or kidnapped? Absolutely NOT.

jmo

No one on this board has EVER said that Natalee deserved to be raped, murdered or kidnapped. NOT EVER.

Why are you setting up a straw man, just so you can knock it down?

NO ONE EVER SAID NOR IMPLIED THAT ON THIS BOARD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. Often, the straw man is set up to deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted

[Heyes]

Originally Posted by ortiga
"slob cop"?

IMO It was a friend of Natalee's that recommended searching in, and I believe even searched herself in crack houses. Haleigh Uncapher, something like that. Why do you think that's the first place she thought of to look for Natalee?

IMO

I haven't read a statement from this person saying she recommended searching in crack houses, do you have a link? TIA.

Still waiting for this link,
waiting to hear when this friend of Natalee's searched crack houses, also waiting to hear anything which would lead this friend to think of looking for Natalee in the crackhouses FIRST!

or is this more of the aruba motto:
blame Natalee and her mother because there is no other defense for suspect joran?

[ortiga]

Originally Posted by ortiga
"slob cop"?

IMO It was a friend of Natalee's that recommended searching in, and I believe even searched herself in crack houses. Haleigh Uncapher, something like that. Why do you think that's the first place she thought of to look for Natalee?

IMO



Still waiting for this link,
waiting to hear when this friend of Natalee's searched crack houses, also waiting to hear anything which would lead this friend to think of looking for Natalee in the crackhouses FIRST!

or is this more of the aruba motto:
blame Natalee and her mother because there is no other defense for suspect joran?


I am tired of you referring to my posts as though I am from Aruba. Please link to any mention, ever, of my reference to an "Aruba motto". Are you saying that MY motto is to "blame Natalee and her mother because there is no defence for suspect Joran"? Please link to any time, ever, that I have "blamed Natalee and her mother".

When was I talking about Natalee, her mother, Joran, etc, in this discussion. When did I ever say I represented, came from, or supported "Aruba"?

My OP began with IMO and ended with IMO, and I am going to leave it there, and ask the further question....Why did Twitty search in crack houses, and why did she think her daughter might have gone there. Did she have any proof whatsoever that Natalee did not CHOOSE to go to a crack house? There is no proof that, IF Natalee had gone to a crack house, that she had not decided to do so herself. There is no proof that she did decide that, and there is no proof that she was taken to one against her will.

IMO

[Heyes]

No one on this board has EVER said that Natalee deserved to be raped, murdered or kidnapped. NOT EVER.

Why are you setting up a straw man, just so you can knock it down?

NO ONE EVER SAID NOR IMPLIED THAT ON THIS BOARD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. Often, the straw man is set up to deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted

You have been suggesting that Natalee's alleged jello shot lured sweet innocent joran into her clutches. IF this happened it was an invitation for joran to do what he wanted with her. At least that's the tone of your posts. Otherwise why bring up the jello shots?
Maybe you've come along further than that I'll give you a chance to rethink woman and their rights.
:patriot:
imo

[fairmaiden]

Actually, yes I do. I think they were desperately looking for some sort of evidence in order to put an end to this. I don't believe they found it. I can see no reason why the officials of Aruba would NOT want to charge J2K if it was at all possible to do so.
That's just the way I se it.

..... And I agree with you, cassidy. As far as I understand, the suspects were arrested as people of interest in the disappearance of Natalee. They were arrested .... THEN the investigation began, which I believe is quite different than what most are used to. Usually there is an investigation, THEN someone is arrested as a suspect. That's what always amazes me when someone will say something like .... "they were allowed to roam free for 10 days". As an example, Scott Peterson was free for MONTHS, while they investigated him.

It's enlightening to visit the board, and see that posters INSIST on the FACTS .... then go on to post "Natalee didn't deserve to be kidnapped, raped, and murdered". Those are FACTS ???

JMO

[Heyes]

I am tired of you referring to my posts as though I am from Aruba. Please link to any mention, ever, of my mention of an "Aruba motto". Are you saying that MY motto is to "blame Natalee and her mother because there is no defence for suspect Joran"? Please link to any time, ever, that I have "blamed Natalee and her mother".

When was I talking about Natalee, her mother, Joran, etc, in this discussion. When did I ever say I represented, came from, or supported "Aruba"?

My OP began with IMO and ended with IMO, and I am going to leave it there, and ask the further question....Why did Twitty search in crack houses, and why did she think her daughter might have gone there. Did she have any proof whatsoever that Natalee did not CHOOSE to go to a crack house? There is no proof that, IF Natalee had gone to a crack house, that she had not decided to do so herself. There is no proof that she did decide that, and there is no proof that she was taken to one against her will.

IMO

The only reason anyone searched the crackhouses for Natalee was because from the cops to the cab drivers ,the Twitty's were continuously told that it is common on aruba for tourists to be taken to crack houses until their money runs out and then they are dumped back at the beach. The suggestion of the crackhouses came from the locals themselves, so now would you please show us a link regarding Natalee's friend assuming Natalee was in a crack house, that it was the first place she thought of. That this friend actually searched the crackhouse. And fill us in on why this would be the first place this friend would think Natalee would be?
Or should we debunk that rumor and dragging of one of Natalee's friends name through the mud right now? :cuss:

[No Nic]

I include IMO in my posts, and I explain where Beth Twitty did not deny seeing these photos of her daughter on the bar as Joran described.

<snipped:rolleyes: >.

And you continue to state that Natalee offered Joran a jello shot (sometimes adding that she paid for it). Your explaination above does not relate to a jello shot specifically between Joran and Natalee, which is the statement that you continue to make without back up, links or explaination.

If the statement is totally your opinion, it's easy enough to clear up.

imo

[fairmaiden]

I include IMO in my posts, and I explain where Beth Twitty did not deny seeing these photos of her daughter on the bar as Joran described.

Please link to where I said anything at all, ever, about a "death certificate"

Your last statements are exceedingly rude and uncivil:

"Guess our questions have been cleared up about the rumors posted here. No proof. No links. Facts are boring. It's much more exciting to deal in rumors and ugly innuendo."

I am getting tired of your referring to my opinons as scurrilous rumors, and ugly innuendo. I don't say things like that and I don't expect for others to avoid legitimate debate by resorting to such nasty insults.

I guess what happens, ortiga .... if you are of a "like mind" as someone who might have posted about the death certificate .... you are automatically "linked" to that person. Proof is demanded of you also.

Why posters on any "side" are treated in a general way, is beyond me. I have always been very careful about not posting about the appearance of individuals .... their marriage status .... but it never fails, I'm always included in the collective "they". I guess it's your turn to be blamed for posting about the "death certificate".;)

JMO