Are her parents capable of such a lie?

[Kitty B]

I really have to ask this.....is it possible that her parents killed her and hid her body, just to throw it in the ocean like yesterday´s trash?

I guess parents that sedate their children on vacation (it is the kid´s vacation too) are capable of anything....but murder?

I have serious problems with most of this story, from the fact that there were 2 2 year olds and a (then) 3 year old alone sleeping in an apartment in Portugal. I live in Norway and we have traveled to both Portugal, Greece, and Spain and never once have we left our 4 children alone. hmmm...

And the sedation. What in the he.. could possibly drive a doctor to do something like that? Hyperactive kids? We all have them at some point or another, I will write how my 8 year old son put it when he heard that on the radio..."kids fall asleep eventually, we don´t need pills for that!" I rest my case on that one.

And the parents. Hmmm....I have a 14 year old, a 12 year old, an 8 year old, and a 3 year old. If any one of those children were taken from me, I would end up in a mental institution, unable to care for myself much less the rest of my family. I would fall APART! I do not think I could function as well as the McCann´s.....

I´m not saying they did it, but I think some infraction of common sense was invoked here. It just doesn´t add up........

[elvislives]

I really have to ask this.....is it possible that her parents killed her and hid her body, just to throw it in the ocean like yesterday´s trash?

I guess parents that sedate their children on vacation (it is the kid´s vacation too) are capable of anything....but murder?

I have serious problems with most of this story, from the fact that there were 2 2 year olds and a (then) 3 year old alone sleeping in an apartment in Portugal. I live in Norway and we have traveled to both Portugal, Greece, and Spain and never once have we left our 4 children alone. hmmm...

And the sedation. What in the he.. could possibly drive a doctor to do something like that? Hyperactive kids? We all have them at some point or another, I will write how my 8 year old son put it when he heard that on the radio..."kids fall asleep eventually, we don´t need pills for that!" I rest my case on that one.

And the parents. Hmmm....I have a 14 year old, a 12 year old, an 8 year old, and a 3 year old. If any one of those children were taken from me, I would end up in a mental institution, unable to care for myself much less the rest of my family. I would fall APART! I do not think I could function as well as the McCann´s.....
I´m not saying they did it, but I think some infraction of common sense was invoked here. It just doesn´t add up........


I think we have to be very careful in judging others simply because they react differently than we might.

When I was in high school, my father suffered a heart attack while my Mom was out of town. It was early in the morning before we left for school. My 2 sisters (one older, one younger) were total basket cases. As my dad lay there unconscious they screamed and cryed and were powerless to do anything. I managed to pick up the phone and call the paramedics who asked "Is he breathing?'. I wasn't sure but followed the operators instructions and administered CPR. When the paramedics arrived they took him to the hospital and left the 3 of us alone. I remember scrambling to make everyone eat breakfast and get dressed so we wouldnt be late for school!

An outside observer may have thought, Wow, she really doesn't care about her father if her priority was getting to school on time! The reason I share this story is to illustrate that everyone has different coping mechanisms. My sisters have always fallen apart during times of crisis whereas I probably appear cold and insensitive. It is not because I have a cold evil heart, I just have a different way of coping.

As I have stated before, if it turns out the McCanns killed their daughter and lied about it, I'll be the first to condemn them. But until some reliable evidence surfaces, they are simply victims of a horrible crime imo.

[Jayelles]

I think we have to be very careful in judging others simply because they react differently than we might.

When I was in high school, my father suffered a heart attack while my Mom was out of town. It was early in the morning before we left for school. My 2 sisters (one older, one younger) were total basket cases. As my dad lay there unconscious they screamed and cryed and were powerless to do anything. I managed to pick up the phone and call the paramedics who asked "Is he breathing?'. I wasn't sure but followed the operators instructions and administered CPR. When the paramedics arrived they took him to the hospital and left the 3 of us alone. I remember scrambling to make everyone eat breakfast and get dressed so we wouldnt be late for school!

An outside observer may have thought, Wow, she really doesn't care about her father if her priority was getting to school on time! The reason I share this story is to illustrate that everyone has different coping mechanisms. My sisters have always fallen apart during times of crisis whereas I probably appear cold and insensitive. It is not because I have a cold evil heart, I just have a different way of coping.

As I have stated before, if it turns out the McCanns killed their daughter and lied about it, I'll be the first to condemn them. But until some reliable evidence surfaces, they are simply victims of a horrible crime imo.

I agree. I have always gone straight back to work the day after the funeral of a loved one - which is generally 3 days here. A couple of weeks ago, I was at the funeral of my mother's best friend and her two daughters told us that they'd been signed off work for a month and that the doctor had offered to extend it if they needed. We all have out own ways of coping.

Another article I read today was in a magazine called "Woman's Own". There was an article in it about Kate McCann and the journalist who wrote it had interviewed Kate a month ago - before she became arguida. The journalist wrote of how tears streamed down Kate's face as she spoke of Madeleine and how she was completely exhausted and looked so frail. When they parted, Kate embraced the journlaist and whispered "Go home and hug your children" (or words to that effect). It wasn't a aprticularly newsy article but a touching one.

[Tober]

It just doesn´t add up........

And therein lies the red flag. When things don't add up, something is amiss. We have a low-risk victim for a crime, in a low-risk location for a crime of this type (both general and specific location), yet a high-risk offender (the alleged abductor) perpetrating a high-risk crime. These contradictory elements tell us we should be suspicious. Not calling the McCann's liars, just saying at this point there exists some red flag issues that must be resolved. Also, other than the fact that Maddy is missing, there isn't any overt evidence that she was, in fact, abducted. We are essentially taking the McCann's word that she was. Interestingly, they insist that entry into the flat was forced via the shutters, but police and staff have said no evidence of forced entry was found. If the flat was left unlatched as the McCann's allege, why would an abductor need to force entry? IMO

[bullmoose]

And therein lies the red flag. When things don't add up, something is amiss. We have a low-risk victim for a crime, in a low-risk location for a crime of this type (both general and specific location), yet a high-risk offender (the alleged abductor) perpetrating a high-risk crime. These contradictory elements tell us we should be suspicious. Not calling the McCann's liars, just saying at this point there exists some red flag issues that must be resolved. Also, other than the fact that Maddy is missing, there isn't any overt evidence that she was, in fact, abducted. We are essentially taking the McCann's word that she was. Interestingly, they insist that entry into the flat was forced via the shutters, but police and staff have said no evidence of forced entry was found. If the flat was left unlatched as the McCann's allege, why would an abductor need to force entry? IMO

I think that what this case needs is a good, experienced detective to step foward and to cut through all the smokescreen the parents are putting up and give us a definitive storyline to believe and stick through, no matter what pesky facts may arise. I hope someone with the experience and expertise will step foward to help us poor dumb posters, who are being beseiged by BS stories leaked to the tabloids, seemingly by the cops. Wait, do I hear an echo, again? JMHO:biggrin:

[Jayelles]

And therein lies the red flag. When things don't add up, something is amiss. We have a low-risk victim for a crime, in a low-risk location for a crime of this type (both general and specific location), yet a high-risk offender (the alleged abductor) perpetrating a high-risk crime. These contradictory elements tell us we should be suspicious. Not calling the McCann's liars, just saying at this point there exists some red flag issues that must be resolved. Also, other than the fact that Maddy is missing, there isn't any overt evidence that she was, in fact, abducted. We are essentially taking the McCann's word that she was. Interestingly, they insist that entry into the flat was forced via the shutters, but police and staff have said no evidence of forced entry was found. If the flat was left unlatched as the McCann's allege, why would an abductor need to force entry? IMO

That's a bit like saying "Why did a burglar break a window at the back of the house when the front door was unlocked? The answer is to do with visibility.

The patio doors faced onto the pool area where the parents were dining. The forced shutter was at the back or side of the apartments.

[TuscanDreams]

And therein lies the red flag. When things don't add up, something is amiss. We have a low-risk victim for a crime, in a low-risk location for a crime of this type (both general and specific location), yet a high-risk offender (the alleged abductor) perpetrating a high-risk crime. These contradictory elements tell us we should be suspicious. Not calling the McCann's liars, just saying at this point there exists some red flag issues that must be resolved. Also, other than the fact that Maddy is missing, there isn't any overt evidence that she was, in fact, abducted. We are essentially taking the McCann's word that she was. Interestingly, they insist that entry into the flat was forced via the shutters, but police and staff have said no evidence of forced entry was found. If the flat was left unlatched as the McCann's allege, why would an abductor need to force entry? IMO

Really? Was Maddie a low risk victim? I'd say that she was a target. She was 4, cute as a button and a pedophiles dream. And, holding American stats against another countries stats isn't even close to comparision. Besides cultural norms, other standards must be taken into account and the risk factor needs recalculated.

Most victims will tell you that they thought they were low risk. I thought I was, until I was violently attacked.

Risk is a statistic and Maddie is a child.

[Jayelles]

Jayelles wrote:
"The answer is to do with visibility. The patio doors faced onto the pool area where the parents were dining. The forced shutter was at the back or side of the apartments."

Jayelles, I take it you mean that the patio doors faced in the direction of the restaurant where the McCanns were dining?. It is misleading to say that they were dining "in the pool area" and this may be the origin of erroneous and widely varying restaruant-apartment distance claims (less than 150m, 200m, 40m, 100m, "just metres away", etc) in the news.

I have read that the back faced a road used by all the residents; ie neither front and back were secluded. Why do you suggest that the back was more secluded and thus more likely an entrance point? Are you saying that the patio doors were visible from the pool (something I have never heard) and that many people were at the pool?

Moreover, Tober wrote: "Interestingly, they insist that entry into the flat was forced via the shutters, but police and staff have said no evidence of forced entry was found." So why are the McCanns claiming forced entry, when no such evidence was found? Doesn't this seem like a conveniently concocted reason for "assuming" that an abduction had taken place -- that the shutters were open. BTW, wasn't Gerry seen by Wilkins hanging around those shutters just after 9 PM?

Jayelles, please buttress your point a little bit more.

Sure, I'll buttress for you but I don't think it's at all misleading to describe the central area of the complex as the pool area. We've all seen the photos. Here's how the hotel is described on one website:-

While relaxing by the pool, guests can enjoy salads, barbequed dishes and the fish of the day at the hotel's poolside bar and salad bar.

Now regarding misleading claims of distance. Hideki said:-

Incidentally, the apartment was surely not visible from where the McCanns sat, and it was apparently a 200 meter walk from their table to their apartment.


If you're a stickler for accuracy, I'd check that if I were you. Tennis courts are between 70-100ft but let's err on the larger size (approx 35 m). If we use your claim of a 200m distance, that would mean you could fit SIX tennis courts end to end between the tapas bar and the apartment. Here's an aerial photo to help:-

http://bp1.blogger.com/_mXbRBcSh0gs/RlowOZfs4eI/AAAAAAAAAZw/NnmhuElEmVI/s1600-h/Aerial_Photo_Ocean_Club_Eng.gif

Do you think 200m is right?

[cat840]

I really have to ask this.....is it possible that her parents killed her and hid her body, just to throw it in the ocean like yesterday´s trash?

Of course it's possible. Parents do this to their children sometimes we know that for a fact.

Just look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_%C3%84iki%C3%A4) case.

The parents must be examined in cases like this all cops know that.

The difference is how wealthy and respected the parents are. If the McCanns weren't doctors but instead poor they would not have receives the silk gloves treatment initially but would have been examined more closely right away just like the parents who killed Bobby IMO.

If the Ramseys had been poor that case would have been solved long ago IMO. Unfortunately "innocent until proven guilty" does not always apply but instead "innocent until proven broke". OJ Simpson would not be free today if he was poor IMO.

[Jayelles]

Jayelles wrote:
"If you're a stickler for accuracy, I'd check that if I were you... Do you think 200m is right?"

How about you? Aren't you a stickler for detail on such an important point? As I posted, the 200m figure comes from news reports.

And I posted an aerial photo which proves that these reports are wrong. I'm not going to get involved in a pointless debate with you about whether the pool is in the restaurant area of the restaurant is in the pool area. They are clearly side by side.

BTW, it is part of terms and conditions of this forum to provide sources. I have asked you for a couple of sources in posts you have made and I am awaiting your reponses. If you are going to claim something as fact, it is not sufficient to say "this came from news reports". I'm sure the mods will be happy to clarify this for you if you are uncertain.

[Jayelles]

Jayelles wrote:
"If you're a stickler for accuracy, I'd check that if I were you... Do you think 200m is right?"

How about you? Aren't you a stickler for detail on such an important point? As I posted, the 200m figure comes from news reports.



Yes I'm a stickler - which is why I reject your claim of 200m. It's plain to see from the aerial photo that there is no way you could fit six or seven tennis courts end to end between the tapas bar and the apartment. Maybe two at a push. That would make it 200 feet or less - not 200 metres. Some people have gardens longer than 200 ft.

[elvislives]

Jayelles wrote:
"If you're a stickler for accuracy, I'd check that if I were you... Do you think 200m is right?"

How about you? Aren't you a stickler for detail on such an important point? As I posted, the 200m figure comes from news reports.

"

Hideki, this statement of yours speaks volumes as to your mindset. The point being made by several posters in many of these threads is that much of what is being reported in the news is FALSE.

Some of us are capable of using critical thinking skills and therefore don't believe everything that is being reported.

Many of these papers also claim that women give birth to martian babies and they even show pictures! I suppose you must believe these reports also. They must be true if its reported in the news.

[andU]

Of course it's possible. Parents do this to their children sometimes we know that for a fact.

Just look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_%C3%84iki%C3%A4) case.

The parents must be examined in cases like this all cops know that.

The difference is how wealthy and respected the parents are. If the McCanns weren't doctors but instead poor they would not have receives the silk gloves treatment initially but would have been examined more closely right away just like the parents who killed Bobby IMO.

If the Ramseys had been poor that case would have been solved long ago IMO. Unfortunately "innocent until proven guilty" does not always apply but instead "innocent until proven broke". OJ Simpson would not be free today if he was poor IMO.

IMO, you're thinking is wrong. There is little if any proof that the parents of Maddie has done anything to her. Why would they harm only Maddie, they would still have the twins to care for .... Yes, examine the parents, but for evermore, also take into account that it could have been someone else, as well.

[elvislives]

Indeed much of it is, but you have yet to claim that the specific link I provided includes false information. It details very specifically, with photos and descriptions, that a 120m walk is involved. You and Jayelles are silent about this. Why?



I think you are confused. I was never involved in the discussion about the distance between the bar and the apartment, as I know very little about it.

As an American I acknowledge that leaving children unattended is risky, and I believe illegal in most states. I believe the McCanns have expressed severe regret at having done this and are certainly paying the ultimate price. So in my opinion it doesn't much matter whether they were 120 meters or 120,000 meters away, it was clearly a horrible mistake to leave those children alone. But as has been pointed out time and again, there are cultural differences involved here.

I just find it particularly viscious to cruelly add to the suffering of the family of an abducted child. Many parents have made mistakes and have had their children abducted and killed as a result. I personally would never dream of exacerbating their suffereing by constantly pointing out that they could have prevented it. But perhaps criticism of people in despair gives you some sadistic pleasure or elevates your own self esteem, in which case I would recommend psychiatric intervention.

Many people criticize rape victims since they 'shouldn't have been walking alone or wearing provocative clothing'. This is called blaming the victim and is considered quite cold hearted by most. I suspect you fall into this category in which case I will not even try to reason with you.

Since you are a new member (;) ), you may not be aware that there is an "ignore" feature on this site. I will put you on ignore and hopefully you will do the same. Again, welcome to Crime Library.

[Jayelles]

Jayelles wrote:



The aerial photo proves nothing about the distance needed to walk from the restaurant to the apartment. I provided you with a link to a site that describes the 120 meter walk involved.


It is not a pointless debate when "the pool area" is used as a vague reference point to measure distance. Such measurements will give various figures having nothing to do with the distance walked from apartment to restaurant. This is convenient for the McCanns, who would like to downplay that distance. Apply some critical thinking and perhaps you will see that this is quite obvious.



If you are referring to the sedation/Calpol issue I have provided sources on the relevant threads. If, as I hope, you are referring to this thread, you seem to have overlooked the excerpts and link I provided detailing the 120m walk from the apartment to the restaurant. May I assume that "part of terms and conditions of this forum" is to acknowledge when sources are provided?

elvislives wrote:


Indeed much of it is, but you have yet to claim that the specific link I provided includes false information. It details very specifically, with photos and descriptions, that a 120m walk is involved. You and Jayelles are silent about this. Why?


To the contrary, I specifically mentioned that there had been a wide range of distances reported in the press. This is a clear indication that I think some or most of them are way off base. Particularly, the ubiquitous "just metres away" is, shall I say, ludicrous.

Moreover, much of the disinformation in the press has been provided by the McCann team, whose "press releases" are often reported as news.

You seem to be using this "don't bellieve everything" argument in a very one-sided fashion.



To quote you, this remark "speaks volumes as to your mindset". Apparently you think it convincing to to take the position that all opinions differing from your own are based on unreliable reports, and a lack of critical thinking; that your opinions are of course based on reliable sources.

And yet you and Jayelles ignored my evidence that the walk is 120m. You both also fail to provide any source or evidence that the walk is less than this.

I conclude that your argumentation is hollow.

Do let us know why you think the 120m figure for distance is inaccurate, and please provide us with proof that it is less than this. Your posts amount to a claim that this is so -- therefore please abide by the "terms and conditions of this forum" and provide the substantiation of your claim.

Otherwise, you are not setting a good example for consistent thought, and critical thinking. JMO

I have posted the proof that 120 metres is inaccurate - the aerial photo which clealy shows the tennis courts. I have explained that a large tennis court is approx 35 metres (it's actually less, but I'm erring on the large size) and it is entirely at the viewer's discretion to decide whether 4-7 tennis courts could fit between the tapas bar and the apartment.

The "pool area" debate is completely pointless because the point I was making when I referred to the pool area had nothing whatsoever to do with distance to the apartment - a point which seem to be escaping you. My point was about visibility. The rear entrance to the apartment is screened off by a wall and trees (as can be seen in the aerial photograph). The patio doors were visible from the pool area where guests (including Maddie's parents and their friends) were sitting. The patio doors would also have been visible to anyone wlking from the bars and restaurants back to the apartment.

Use the tennis courts are a guide to length. There is no way you'd fit 4-7 (dependent on whether you are arguing 120-200 metres) between the tapas bar and the apartment. The path between the two is clearly visible in the aerial photo.

Now I'm sorry, but I will not be engaging in this pointless debate any further.

[Jayelles]

IMO, you're thinking is wrong. There is little if any proof that the parents of Maddie has done anything to her. Why would they harm only Maddie, they would still have the twins to care for .... Yes, examine the parents, but for evermore, also take into account that it could have been someone else, as well.

The parents have been nothing but co-operative. Their spokesperson re-iterated yet again this morning that they would assist with the enwuiry in any way they could,

[JBRnotforgotten]

THIS IS IN ONLY MY OPINION
This case is headed for disaster just like JBR case cause too much efforts focusing on parents while kidnapper is free ....ONLY MY OPIONION
:shrug:

[cat840]

IMO, you're thinking is wrong. There is little if any proof that the parents of Maddie has done anything to her. Why would they harm only Maddie, they would still have the twins to care for .... Yes, examine the parents, but for evermore, also take into account that it could have been someone else, as well.

What is wrong about my thinking?

If you want to speculate about the guilt of the McCanns please reply to a post that refers to the guilt question.

Did I say that ONLY the parents should be examined? No, I did not.

[andU]

What is wrong about my thinking?

If you want to speculate about the guilt of the McCanns please reply to a post that refers to the guilt question.

Did I say that ONLY the parents should be examined? No, I did not.

If you will stop huffing and puffing long enough to notice, I said, "IMO", you're thinking is wrong. There has been much speculation in this case already, in fact we have little idea about what is fact. It sounds as though you have a major problem with wealthy parents. Maddie's parents are not at all wealthy, at least not anymore.

[Athena]

If you will stop huffing and puffing long enough to notice, I said, "IMO", you're thinking is wrong. There has been much speculation in this case already, in fact we have little idea about what is fact. It sounds as though you have a major problem with wealthy parents. Maddie's parents are not at all wealthy, at least not anymore.

I agree andU. That is how it sounded to me as well cat840. If that wasn't your intention perhaps you could have worded it so it was clearer. :shrug: JMO

[cat840]

If you will stop huffing and puffing long enough to notice, I said, "IMO", you're thinking is wrong.

And, what does IMO change. I was asking you what you based your opinion on.

There has been much speculation in this case already, in fact we have little idea about what is fact.

I'm not speculating about their guilt, I have no clue weather they did t or not. I just say it is possible that human beings lie and manages to maintain it even in cases were parents have killed their own children.

It sounds as though you have a major problem with wealthy parents.

No, I don't.

But to get back on subject. Of course criminals lie and can sometimes maintains it. Bobby's parents started out to lie. LE believed them for a while. A huge search, country wide was conducted with no result and the investigation turned to focus on the parents. The mother revealed the truth after a while. The truth was that they had tried to stage an abduction scenario at a mall while Bobby infact had been dead for several days already. They hid the body in a lake. Parents do this sometimes, that is a fact.

[elvislives]

Of course it's possible. Parents do this to their children sometimes we know that for a fact.

Just look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_%C3%84iki%C3%A4) case.

The parents must be examined in cases like this all cops know that.

The difference is how wealthy and respected the parents are. If the McCanns weren't doctors but instead poor they would not have receives the silk gloves treatment initially but would have been examined more closely right away just like the parents who killed Bobby IMO.

If the Ramseys had been poor that case would have been solved long ago IMO. Unfortunately "innocent until proven guilty" does not always apply but instead "innocent until proven broke". OJ Simpson would not be free today if he was poor IMO.


I think I understood your point, Cat. Sadly the reality is that many child murders are perpetrated by the parents and they must be investigated. I have heard several parents of murdered or abducted children interviewed (innocent ones, like Mark Klaas, John Walsh, the Van Dams, the Smarts etc, etc) and they say it was the most excruciatingly painful thing they have ever endured. But I agree with you that it has to be done. There are certainly plently of Susan Smith's in the world.

And I used to think there was a racial bias in the court systems in the US (actually I still think their is). But after the OJ trial I became convinced that the bias is based less on race and more on class or financial resources of the defendant. Clearly if OJ was penniless and reliant on public defenders, he would likely be serving a life sentence for double aggravated homocide (and rightly so imo).

That said, I don't think anyone objects that the McCanns were investigated. It would be irresponsible not to investigate them given the statistics on child murders.The criticism imo is NOT that the Portuguese police are investigating the parents, but rather their tactics.

If they were poor, Kate would likely be sitting in a Portuguese jail cell battered and bruised at the hands of the police (just like Leonor Cipriano...a mother whose child vanished under similar circumstances. She turned out to be innocent, but the Portuguese police--the same ones investigating the McCanns- violently brutalized her trying to get a confession).

There have also been numerous false leaks by the police in an apparent attempt to turn public opinion against the McCanns. This is not only illegal but highly unethical and perilous to the investigation. And after Kate revealed that they confiscated her bible to search for clues, she was threatened with a two year prison sentence for revealing details of the investigation . So I for one have NO problem with the PJ investigating these parents, but their tactics imo are reprehensible.

[Jayelles]

The McCann's both come from working class backgrounds. Kate in particular has quite a broad accent. Neither of them is at all "posh". They were both kids from hard working families who did well at school and got into good professions.

Some people will always resent success - even when it has been hard-earned.

[cat840]

The McCann's both come from working class backgrounds. Kate in particular has quite a broad accent. Neither of them is at all "posh". They were both kids from hard working families who did well at school and got into good professions.

Some people will always resent success - even when it has been hard-earned.

As you posted this on a thread about wheater the parent would be capable about lying about what happened if they were guilty and your post does not adress this but instead adresses the status of the McCanns I guess this post was adressed to me as I brought up the status question.

I don't resent success. Good for the McCanns that they managed to learn doctoring.

In my post I voiced my opinion that LE handles people of different status differently, something that makes cases were the suspects are respected citizens such as doctors for example, much harder to solve because of the initial loss of tempo in such investigations. Do such an opinion lead you to believe that I resent success?

Wheater the McCanns come from a poor background or not doesn't change the way they are treated once they have become something else IMO.

[JBRnotforgotten]

In my own opinion it does not matter how much income one is to have
but it is rarely that a low budget family with missing children and murder victims get the chances like those who are well off. THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY

[JBRnotforgotten]

I really have to ask this.....is it possible that her parents killed her and hid her body, just to throw it in the ocean like yesterday´s trash?

I guess parents that sedate their children on vacation (it is the kid´s vacation too) are capable of anything....but murder?

I have serious problems with most of this story, from the fact that there were 2 2 year olds and a (then) 3 year old alone sleeping in an apartment in Portugal. I live in Norway and we have traveled to both Portugal, Greece, and Spain and never once have we left our 4 children alone. hmmm...

And the sedation. What in the he.. could possibly drive a doctor to do something like that? Hyperactive kids? We all have them at some point or another, I will write how my 8 year old son put it when he heard that on the radio..."kids fall asleep eventually, we don´t need pills for that!" I rest my case on that one.

And the parents. Hmmm....I have a 14 year old, a 12 year old, an 8 year old, and a 3 year old. If any one of those children were taken from me, I would end up in a mental institution, unable to care for myself much less the rest of my family. I would fall APART! I do not think I could function as well as the McCann´s.....

I´m not saying they did it, but I think some infraction of common sense was invoked here. It just doesn´t add up........



IN MY OWN OPINION
None of this adds up just like the JBR case their will be suspicions of the parents until they get a lead then they will focus on the lead well if it goes dead end back to the parents it is all gonna end up wishy washy..
Nothing or Nobody could probably take the despair away from that family , I am sure that they wish they hadnt left them alone . but nobody can go back in time so , I just pray for them to have strength to carry on with this search whatever the outcome may be, and that God continues to watch over little Madeline and return her to her family..

In my opinion I dont think they did it, but I also like with alot of cases have my thoughtful moments from other points of view so I just think the focus for now should be Madeline and Madeline only not parents or bystanders whatever else..IMOP

[One2Snoop]

elvislives wrote:



She was found guilty without a confession. Please provide a source for this disinformation that she "turned out to be innocent". Also, you cannot possibly have proof that those charged with brutalizing her are now investigating this case, because you cannot even specify which people were charged with this.

You had better back up such ludicrous claims, or risk losing all credibility.

No need to throw daggers Hedeki. elvislives read the same things I've read regarding Portuguese police brutality and this other case where the woman was beaten in order to get a confession. The articles are all in the news updates thread. I'll post this again in case you missed it. :seeya:

Maddie McCann cops in torture claim

The Daily Telegraph

17 September 2007

A SENIOR police officer investigating the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.


THE senior detective jointly in charge of the investigation into the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral has been accused of concealing evidence that the mother of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano, who disappeared in the Algarve three years ago, was tortured by police into confessing she had killed her daughter.

The senior officer, who heads the Policia Judiciaria in Portimao, the nearest Portuguese town to Praia da Luz from where Madeleine vanished, could appear before the secret hearing as early as next month.

The revelation casts further doubt on the Portuguese police, who have faced increasing criticism about their handling of the McCann case.

http://tools.ntnews.com.au/rss_article.php?news_id=163071

[cat840]

No need to throw daggers Hedeki. elvislives read the same things I've read regarding Portuguese police brutality and this other case where the woman was beaten in order to get a confession. The articles are all in the news updates thread. I'll post this again in case you missed it. :seeya:

Maddie McCann cops in torture claim

The Daily Telegraph

17 September 2007

A SENIOR police officer investigating the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.


THE senior detective jointly in charge of the investigation into the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral has been accused of concealing evidence that the mother of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano, who disappeared in the Algarve three years ago, was tortured by police into confessing she had killed her daughter.

The senior officer, who heads the Policia Judiciaria in Portimao, the nearest Portuguese town to Praia da Luz from where Madeleine vanished, could appear before the secret hearing as early as next month.

The revelation casts further doubt on the Portuguese police, who have faced increasing criticism about their handling of the McCann case.

http://tools.ntnews.com.au/rss_article.php?news_id=163071

But the "turned out to be innocent" part did not come from the article you linked to because this article says

"Leonor Cipriano did confess, after almost 48 hours of continuous interrogation but later retracted her statement. She was convicted of murdering her daughter and is now serving a 16-year jail term."

So, could you or elvislives please provide the correct source which says that she "turned out to be innocent".

[One2Snoop]

elvislives wrote:



She was found guilty without a confession. Please provide a source for this disinformation that she "turned out to be innocent". Also, you cannot possibly have proof that those charged with brutalizing her are now investigating this case, because you cannot even specify which people were charged with this.

You had better back up such ludicrous claims, or risk losing all credibility.

I don't think you need to threaten anyone either - the articles are all here, all you need to do is ask nicely....

Controversial past of policeman leading the McCann investigation
By Amol Rajan in Praia da Luz
Published: 11 September 2007
snip
Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

Earlier this year, Mr Amaral and four colleagues were made suspects ( arguidos) in the beating of Leonor Cipriano during an interrogation following the disappearance of her daughter Joana, who vanished from a village seven miles from Praia da Luz.

Joana's mother and uncle were convicted of murdering and dismembering her after she discovered them having an incestuous relationship. However, Mrs Cipriano claimed she was beaten up in custody under the watch of Mr Amaral and accused the police of setting her up.

She has produced graphic photographs of her face after interrogation which showed heavy bruising around her eyes.

http://tools.ntnews.com.au/rss_article.php?news_id=163071

[One2Snoop]

But the "turned out to be innocent" part did not come from the article you linked to because this article says

"Leonor Cipriano did confess, after almost 48 hours of continuous interrogation but later retracted her statement. She was convicted of murdering her daughter and is now serving a 16-year jail term."

So, could you or elvislives please provide the correct source which says that she "turned out to be innocent".

Yes, there is that article too - in the news update thread. BRB

[cat840]

Yes, there is that article too - in the news update thread. BRB

I have searched the whole news updates thread now but could not find any article the says Cipriano turned out to be innocent. Please point out the post in the news update thread you are referring to.

[One2Snoop]

I have searched the whole news updates thread now but could not find any article the says Cipriano turned out to be innocent. Please point out the post in the news update thread you are referring to.

I never said she was innocent...I think those were elvislives words. Although for the record, my words are, "Framed yes, echos of intimidation regarding Kate McCann" is loud and clear to me, IMO. It appears she hasn't been released, I was under the impression she had been. My mistake. Here's the latest update I could find...

'These cops framed my wife'

By OLIVER HARVEY
Chief Feature Writer
September 08, 2007

THE husband of a Portuguese woman jailed for the murder of her child spoke last night of his fears for Kate McCann.

Leandro Silva said his wife had been set up and he believed police would do the same thing to four-year-old Madeleine’s mother.

He said: “I am worried Kate will be framed for a crime she did not commit, the way it happened to my wife.”

Leandro also demanded that one of the detectives leading the Maddie investigation should be dropped from the case.

Detective Goncalo Amaral has been accused of being involved with beating Leandro’s wife, Leonor Cipriano, during her interrogation over the death of her daughter, Joana, nine.

snip
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007411009,00.html

[elvislives]

elvislives wrote:



She was found guilty without a confession. Please provide a source for this disinformation that she "turned out to be innocent". Also, you cannot possibly have proof that those charged with brutalizing her are now investigating this case, because you cannot even specify which people were charged with this[/B].

You had better back up such ludicrous claims, or risk losing all credibility.

Controversial past of policeman leading the McCann investigation
By Amol Rajan in Praia da Luz
Published: 11 September 2007
As the Portuguese press continued to round on the McCanns yesterday, newspaper columns remained pointedly silent on a separate investigation into the police officer leading the hunt for Madeleine.

Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.
Earlier this year, Mr Amaral and four colleagues were made suspects ( arguidos) in the beating of Leonor Cipriano during an interrogation following the disappearance of her daughter Joana, who vanished from a village seven miles from Praia da Luz.

Joana's mother and uncle were convicted of murdering and dismembering her after she discovered them having an incestuous relationship. However, Mrs Cipriano claimed she was beaten up in custody under the watch of Mr Amaral and accused the police of setting her up.

She has produced graphic photographs of her face after interrogation which showed heavy bruising around her eyes.

In June, Mr Amaral and his colleagues were charged, three with torture, a fourth with omission of evidence and a fifth withfalsification of documents. It is unclear which offence he was charged with.

Police sources in Portimao, from where the Madeleine McCann investigation is being conducted, refused to comment yesterday but the disquiet surrounding Mr Amaral overseeing such a prominent case has raised questions over his suitability and pitched the British tabloid press against their Portuguese counterparts.

Mr Amaral is widely respected and generally regarded by the Portuguese papers as a man doing a good job in difficult circumstances. But the emergence of Leonor Cipriano's accusations and the serious charges have led to some argue he should not be working on a similar case.

The investigation into Joana's disappearance was marred by the failure to seal off the house in which she was last seen. The police investigating Madeleine's disappearance have also been criticised for allegedly being slack in sealing off the resort where the McCanns had been staying.

Local journalists close to the case say the charges brought against Detective Amaral are inconclusive.



I stand corrected on the innocence of Leonor Ciprano as that is still subject to debate.She of course claims her admission of guilt was coerced thru violence, but that remains to be proven as I believe it is still under investigation. When I read this article that said 'Joana's mother and uncle were convicted..." I must have have misread that as 'Leonor's mother and uncle'. My mistake and apologies. However, I stand by my criticism that beating up suspects is wrong.

Also, you cannot possibly have proof that those charged with brutalizing her are now investigating this case, [COLOR="red"]because you cannot even specify which people were charged with this

His name is Goncolo Amaral and he was the lead investigator on the McCann case. Feel free to google his name or sift thru the news updates if you'd like additional information.
<*R>

[Jayelles]

My apologies. I just realized how irresponsible a suggestion this was. IF you take my advice use EXTREME caution with these dangerous meds as one of the most common side effects is DEATH...:cool:

I'm glad I swallowed my coffee before reading that. The problem with Calpol is that it tastes really nice and children like it. One of my friend's children got hold of a box of Calpol sachets and swallowed 5 of them before her mother caught her. She was about two years old at the time. She was neither drowsy nor required medical attention. My friend called the hospital who checked with the Poisons Bureau and they said she'd need to have swallowed a lot more before she would have required medical treatment.

[elvislives]

I'm glad I swallowed my coffee before reading that. The problem with Calpol is that it tastes really nice and children like it. One of my friend's children got hold of a box of Calpol sachets and swallowed 5 of them before her mother caught her. She was about two years old at the time. She was neither drowsy nor required medical attention. My friend called the hospital who checked with the Poisons Bureau and they said she'd need to have swallowed a lot more before she would have required medical treatment.

When I was a little girl I would often sneak into my parent's medicine cabinet and eat St. Joseph's chewable childrens aspirin. They were these little orange tablets that tasted like candy and I would eat them by the handful. And aspirin is far more dangerous than aceteminophen for children since it's been linked to Reye's Syndrome. This btw was before the days of child proof caps.

But you make an interesting point. If it turns out that Maddie had Calpol in her system (which btw I have yet to see any evidence of in spite of numerous requests for links) but even if she did ingest it, she may have done so on her own volition. My own son at 3 was able to open child proof caps all the time, even those that my husband and I struggled with.

In retrospect its a wonder my parents never noticed all these missing pills. I suppose they should be dipped in boiling oil, tarred and feathered , then burned at the stake for child abuse. I wonder what the statute of limitations is...

[elvislives]

once again you should substantiate your wild rumours. What "debate" are you talking about? As far as I know, there was no question about her guilt.

Odette puts a lot of effort into posting all the news updates. You might spend some time reading them so you are better informed.

Maddie McCann cops in torture claim

The Daily Telegraph

17 September 2007

THE senior detective jointly in charge of the investigation into the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral has been accused of concealing evidence that the mother of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano, who disappeared in the Algarve three years ago, was tortured by police into confessing she had killed her daughter.

Leonor Cipriano did confess, after almost 48 hours of continuous interrogation but later retracted her statement.

Based on that, I'd say her confession and her guilt is debatable.

Unfortunately you have alleged more than this, and none of your allegations has a basis in fact.

What else have I alleged that was not based on fact? Please enlighten me.



I'm well aware of this man and that case. No need to Google.

Oh I must have been confused since you posted this:

Quote by Hideki: "Also, you cannot possibly have proof that those charged with brutalizing her are now investigating this case, because you cannot even specify which people were charged with this.

After which I provided you the names of those charged with brutalizing her who were indeed the same investigators on the McCann case.

Your own source shows that your allegation is false, and that I was correct in saying that you cannot know which person was charged with roughing up the woman.

"Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

Earlier this year, Mr Amaral and four colleagues were made suspects ( arguidos) in the beating of Leonor Cipriano during an interrogation following the disappearance of her daughter Joana, who vanished from a village seven miles from Praia da Luz."

Again, Hideki, it would behoove you to read the news updates.The names of the other 4 colleagues are listed there as well. Odette has very graciously put them all in one place for you, so the effort on your part should be minimal.


You have difficulties reading in this regard as well. I simply suggested that by publishing lies and disinformation you will lose credibility. And you have.

OMG, I am devastated and I mean devastated that you don't find me credible (in spite of all the sources I continually provide to you). You have no idea how shattered I am. How will I go on???:( I am so depressed, I might go take a fatal overdose of Children's Tylenol....

[Athena]

<snip>
OMG, I am devastated and I mean devastated that you don't find me credible (in spite of all the sources I continually provide to you). You have no idea how shattered I am. How will I go on???:( I am so depressed, I might go take a fatal overdose of Children's Tylenol....

Geez Elvis. Got up late today -- and just drinking coffee. Please label your posts with

******WARNING: READ AT YOUR OWN RISK. I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR FOR COFFEE SPLATTERING ON YOUR KEYBOARD*****

[elvislives]

Geez Elvis. Got up late today -- and just drinking coffee. Please label your posts with

******WARNING: READ AT YOUR OWN RISK. I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR FOR COFFEE SPLATTERING ON YOUR KEYBOARD*****

I am sorry about your keyboard, Athena. My own keyboard is also ruined from all the tears I shed after that verbal assault from Hideki. I wish Bullmoose were here, I need some more crying towels.

p.s. I hope you're not drinking that coffee for "recreational use". If so you better first check in with Hideki in case there are some unknown side effects from that dangerous drug (such as death) that you are unaware of.

[One2Snoop]

Hideki, are you not reading the same articles that have been linked and posted over and over again for you that says Amaral is being investigated regarding this cover-up/beating of Ms Cipriano? I could've sworn I've read those articles here numerous times, in fact I'm reposting them for you just in case you missed them. Please tell me how elvislives is lying when I'm reading the exact same thing he/she is reading? Does that make me a liar too? :confused: :shrug:

Are you here to just argue or to help find Maddie? I certainly hope its the latter.

Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

Earlier this year, Mr Amaral and four colleagues were made suspects ( arguidos) in the beating of Leonor Cipriano during an interrogation following the disappearance of her daughter Joana, who vanished from a village seven miles from Praia da Luz.

another one....

The Daily Telegraph

17 September 2007

THE senior detective jointly in charge of the investigation into the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral has been accused of concealing evidence that the mother of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano, who disappeared in the Algarve three years ago, was tortured by police into confessing she had killed her daughter.

[Jayelles]

I am sorry about your keyboard, Athena. My own keyboard is also ruined from all the tears I shed after that verbal assault from Hideki. I wish Bullmoose were here, I need some more crying towels.

p.s. I hope you're not drinking that coffee for "recreational use". If so you better first check in with Hideki in case there are some unknown side effects from that dangerous drug (such as death) that you are unaware of.

Coffee can kill? Eek. I'd better seek help for my 3 cups a day "habit".

[Jayelles]

Has another tabloid story has bitten the dust?

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/09/23/tot-s-screams-a-myth-98487-19833574/

A key witness in the Madeleine McCann case yesterday DENIED telling cops that she heard the family screaming and arguing.

Pamela Fenn, 81, who lives above the Praia da Luz apartment Madeleine vanished from, supposedly said she heard the four-year-old "scream for four hours" the night before. The reports fuelled police theories that mum Kate sedated Madeleine. But widow Mrs Fenn, interviewed by police two days after Madeleine disappeared, said: "I never heard her screaming or Kate and Gerry arguing.

"I didn't realise anything was wrong until I heard all sorts of commotion outside."

[Jayelles]

One2Snoop wrote:


Elvislives claimed that Amaral was charged with the beating of the woman. That is not true, so that would make it a lie, wouldn't it? Or do you have some other definition of lying?



You have just written that Amaral is being investigated regarding (ie in connection with) that incident. That is true. So of course I have no objection to that.



I am definitely NOT here to find Maddie. I am here for reading others' discussion and expressing my own point of view. I believe the McCanns should be prosecuted for child neglect/abuse. If it turns out they knew she was dead, they should also be prosecuted for grand fraud. JMO



Has the translation fooled some of you over-zealous McCann defenders? "Charged over" does not mean "charged with" -- it means "charged in connection with".

I suggest you read David Jones' "nagging doubts" essay (which I linked on the news thread). It mentions the "similar circumstances" of the Joana case as one reason the police quickly suspected the McCanns.

You McCann defenders are making a mistake trying to use the Joana case for your side, because there was never any doubt of that couples' guilt. The evidence was very solid in the case. There is not even a question that the woman's beating (even if demonstrated) will have any bearing on her conviction, which was not based on any confession by her. Your attempt to draw a parallel only serves to make the McCanns look more guilty than ever.

But, as I indicated before, Elvislives own excerpt showed that 5 people were charged with 3 different offenses, and it was specifically indicated that we do not know who was charged with what. Yet he/she falsely alleged that Amaral was charged with beating the woman.

Your own excerpt should indicate to you that Amaral was indeed NOT one of those charged with beating the woman, as Elvislives falsely alleged.

Have you understood why that false allegation is a lie, and is objectionable?

And yet you people moan and whine when people make "unfair" statements about your beloved McCanns! This gives the impression that you are hypocrites deserving of no particular sympathy or support. This could be why even in Britain 80% of the people do not believe the McCanns.



I already responded to this. Kate & Gerry have been made suspects -- do you think they should be instantly thrown out of work because of that? No, of course not. You would whine and complain endlessly if someone suggested that. Think about it. Hypocrites! JMO


Where is your source that 80% of people in Britain "do not believe the McCanns"?

I am not asking for "some article" which referred to "some poll" - I am asking for the actual source - i.e. the poll itself - results and questions.

[elvislives]

So what? Gerrry & Kate are suspects, but you get all steamed up when people presume they are guilty.


You are lying again. Nowhere does it say that Mr Amaral was charged with brutalizing the woman. It does say that 3 of the 5 suspects were charged. If you do a little reading, you can see clearly in context that Mr Amaral was not among the three. Even if you are not bright enough to see this, you can have no idea whether or not he has been charged. Yet you claim he was charged. Lying and distortion seems a habit hard to break for you.

And you wonder why intelligent people scoff at the McCanns willingness to bend truth every which way, in order to portray themselves as good parents, while demanding that everyone not speculate about how guilty they look.

Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

[elvislives]

I am definitely NOT here to find Maddie.

I don;t think you needed to point that out, as it is patently obvious.

My concern and reasons for participating here ARE for Maddie and for all victims of crime for that matter.

I thought the JBR forum was a fluke, but this forum too now seems like a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show.

As always, my thoughts and prayers are with little Maddie, her family, and all victims of crime. :rose:

[Sharon]

I don;t think you needed to point that out, as it is patently obvious.

My concern and reasons for participating here ARE for Maddie and for all victims of crime for that matter.

I thought the JBR forum was a fluke, but this forum too now seems like a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show.

As always, my thoughts and prayers are with little Maddie, her family, and all victims of crime. :rose:

Elvis, maybe there should be two forums. One could be all about the parents did it. Those posting there could really tell it like they wish and not hold back.

Then we could have another seperate forum for those truely wanting to discuss the case as it unfolds.

I personally have no wish to bicker about how evil someone thinks these parents are. It just doesnt interest me and my time is actually valuable. I would rather be productive and talk with those I consider open to logical discussion.

Actually I refuse to be dragged into a conversation that I feel is morally corrupt. I want to go to sleep at night knowing that I did not kick any one when they are down....and that hopefully I made a possitive difference in the world.

From my experience, those intent on seeing guilt continue to do so no matter what. After many years too much has been invested and the person is forever locked into an opinion of extreem hatred and judgemental position of everything done by the `guilty` one. It becomes a hobby or an obsession, depending on your definition of both.

[Jayelles]

Jay wrote:



That information is provided in the article. Why didn't you just read it and find out for yourself? And you wonder why you cannot convince more than 20% of Britons that your beloved McCanns are innocent. I'd say Team McCann is not doing well at all.

I have read it. It does not say that 80% of people "do not believe the McCanns".

I am asking you to back up your claim that 80% of people "do not believe the McCanns".

IMO, the poll says one thing, and you are claiming something completely different. I am willing to be proved wrong.

[Jayelles]

In fact, this is the danger of statistics and the reason why we should read them carefully.

IMO, Hideki has taken the results of a poll and completely misrepresented the findings.

[Jayelles]

And even Elvislives' cited poll shows that you are NOT in the majority with your opinion on excusing the McCanns' child neglect. 71% of Britons did not excuse the McCanns for such neglect. Are all of these people filled with hatred, or... are you possibly very confused about emotions? JMO


No, but I think you are very confused about the results from this poll :biggrin:

[Jayelles]

I don;t think you needed to point that out, as it is patently obvious.

My concern and reasons for participating here ARE for Maddie and for all victims of crime for that matter.

I thought the JBR forum was a fluke, but this forum too now seems like a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show.

As always, my thoughts and prayers are with little Maddie, her family, and all victims of crime. :rose:

The sad thing is - this isn't the worst forum by any stretch for McCann bashing. Look around and there seem to be oodles of folk who are more outraged at the McCanns for doing what they thought would be OK (even if it wasn't) than at the person who took her from her bed for whatever evil reason.

I've seen some pretty awful things posted by people who accepted the tabloid stories (which we now know to be false) at face value.

Thank heavens we have a civilised judiciary system!

[dallasvic]

Hideki, are you not reading the same articles that have been linked and posted over and over again for you that says Amaral is being investigated regarding this cover-up/beating of Ms Cipriano? I could've sworn I've read those articles here numerous times, in fact I'm reposting them for you just in case you missed them. Please tell me how elvislives is lying when I'm reading the exact same thing he/she is reading? Does that make me a liar too? :confused: :shrug:

Are you here to just argue or to help find Maddie? I certainly hope its the latter.

Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

Earlier this year, Mr Amaral and four colleagues were made suspects ( arguidos) in the beating of Leonor Cipriano during an interrogation following the disappearance of her daughter Joana, who vanished from a village seven miles from Praia da Luz.

another one....

The Daily Telegraph

17 September 2007

THE senior detective jointly in charge of the investigation into the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral has been accused of concealing evidence that the mother of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano, who disappeared in the Algarve three years ago, was tortured by police into confessing she had killed her daughter.

O2S i am reading the same too!!!:seeya: Hedeki is reading what he/she wants to read.

[dallasvic]

I don;t think you needed to point that out, as it is patently obvious.

My concern and reasons for participating here ARE for Maddie and for all victims of crime for that matter.

I thought the JBR forum was a fluke, but this forum too now seems like a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show.

As always, my thoughts and prayers are with little Maddie, her family, and all victims of crime. :rose:

Elvislives is right.
Please everyone,

Let take a deep breath and remember why we are here.:rose:MADDIE:rose:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_02/MADELINEMOD1509_468x440.jpg

[Mishell1383]

Hideki, this statement of yours speaks volumes as to your mindset. The point being made by several posters in many of these threads is that much of what is being reported in the news is FALSE.

Some of us are capable of using critical thinking skills and therefore don't believe everything that is being reported.

Many of these papers also claim that women give birth to martian babies and they even show pictures! I suppose you must believe these reports also. They must be true if its reported in the news.
You mean those martian babies aren't real!? :punch:

[Mishell1383]

Elvislives is right.
Please everyone,

Let take a deep breath and remember why we are here.:rose:MADDIE:rose:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_02/MADELINEMOD1509_468x440.jpg

i love this pic.
Maddie stay brave hunny . :rose:

[bullmoose]

I am sorry about your keyboard, Athena. My own keyboard is also ruined from all the tears I shed after that verbal assault from Hideki. I wish Bullmoose were here, I need some more crying towels.

p.s. I hope you're not drinking that coffee for "recreational use". If so you better first check in with Hideki in case there are some unknown side effects from that dangerous drug (such as death) that you are unaware of.

I'm terribly sorry that I've been gone when such an innovative new poster has flashed their great knowledge and wisdom on everyone; my hanky was positively sopping wet, my grief at missing this Hideki was so-----great. Maybe Hideki will be on the board to post and debate this week, I'll be here and watching. JMHO:biggrin:

[docwho3]

. . .I personally have no wish to bicker about how evil someone thinks these parents are. It just doesnt interest me and my time is actually valuable. I would rather be productive and talk with those I consider open to logical discussion. . . I very much agree with your posted sentiment.

Now then on to the thread topic which for this thread is :
Are her parents capable of such a lie?

Without judging the parents as evil or good but just looking at the question of the thread topic and any evidence I may think I have seen online:

I think as doctors the parents are capable, meaning they have the sharp minds and skills to live the stressful lie and see it through for some time. I suppose that if a body were found the info gained with that find might go a long way to answering if the parents actually did that lie or not.

I have not read all the particulars yet but on another forum I saw a thread about "Trip to Huelva" and there I saw posts about the alleged cadaver scented jeans and saw a pic of kate wearing some jeans.

They had also noted the parents went without the usual news fanfare on that trip and only passed out pamphlets but that they went on a holiday when most churches and shops were closed (even thought they were allegedly going to pray there.) Now perhaps the church was opened for them, I do not know and perhaps the pictured jeans worn that day were not the cadaver scented ones. I do not know that either but it is starting to sound interesting to me.

I think they are considering that the parents may have used that trip to do some body disposal.

[cat840]

Thank heavens we have a civilised judiciary system!

Who are we?

[Mishell1383]

What happened to elvislives! Why did she have her nic deleted!!! I"M SO UPSET! Thats one less person that was here for the sole reason of the victim! ELVIS!!!!!! NOOO!:(

[docwho3]

I could not go back and edit the previous post which I made but I wanted to say that when agreeing with another posters sentiments I was only meaning that I would not feel comfortable in villifying the parents (calling them evil etc.) but I am more interested in seeing the case discussed on its merits. I certainly did not mean to be speaking against the existence of this thread or any members. Actually for the most part I am very happy to see that people on this forum have done a very good job of trying to be fair and not jump to conclusions for or against anyone in this case.

When I looked at my previous post I felt it did not accurately reflect what I meant on that part. I just saw the post and the idea of being fair and logical appealed to me and so I responded accordingly.

[Sharon]

What happened to elvislives! Why did she have her nic deleted!!! I"M SO UPSET! Thats one less person that was here for the sole reason of the victim! ELVIS!!!!!! NOOO!:(

She has left due to some (one?) of the posters here and given me permission to let other know if anyone asked.

She works with victims of crime irl and is a doctor. She did not want to be part of a site that allowed the victimisation of true victims due to the moral delemer this presented to her. Unfortunately she could not be persuaded to stay. She was offended that the offensive posts were left to stay while others were deleted.

[Pelicanette]

The McCanns do not fit any profile of parents who kill their children. They are not young and inexperienced parents. They are not in financial straits. They do not have more children than they can reasonably care for. They are not isolated from friends and relatives. They have help in the form of a nanny. They both have interesting careers and a good social life. There is no indication their marriage was under stress or on the rocks.

What would be their motive for killing their own child? They wanted children so badly they resorted to IVF. Madeleine was a very colicky baby, but they weathered that storm. Many people who spend a year with a colicky first baby never want to have another. But the McCanns had the twins. All of the children seemed healthy and well-cared-for. There was no sign of abuse of any of the children or violence in the home.

[Pelicanette]

It is one thing to disapprove of the parents leaving the child alone, even for a short time. But why hate them? They made a mistake. I do not believe all the posters who claim they are with their children 24/7 and never leave them alone. People go out into their yards or garden while their children sleep. They become distracted at a shopping mall and take their eye off the kids for a moment. They mow the lawn or take a shower while their children play in the house or outside. Nobody is as perfect at parenting as some online like to insist they are. But it is a moot point anyway. The criminal here is the abductor. Kate and Gerry are victims and little Madeleine is the primary victim. Seething hatred of the parents is not a sign of a stable person, IMO. They deserve our compassion. Their daughter is gone, and they have not been proven guilty of anything in a court of law, including neglect of their children. I find the lynch mob mentality very unattractive and puzzling. NOTHING points to the parents as harming their child in any way, shape or form or of covering up anything. There just is no evidence, much less any proof, of parental involvement. Yet, the chances of an abductor taking her are extremely great. The fact that the window was partly open and a car park closeby are added indicators or an abduction.

[Pelicanette]

We heard that there were "masses" of hair in the car. Not true. Later, we heard "fragments of hair that could not be matched to Madeleine or anyone else."

We heard something about "bodily fluids" in the car, but later there were not bodily fluids that could be matched to Madeleine.

We have heard that blood was found in the flat, in an adjoining flat, etc., but was it Madeleine's blood? Nope. Apparently it was not.

Enough with the "cadaver" smells. I think the police were bluffing about that. A so-called sniffer dog may have alerted, but believe me, the smell of a weeks old corpse would be so strong that sniffer dogs would not be necessary to detect it.

It is all so ludicrous and nasty. Rumors are not evidence. Innuendo is not evidence. Disliking the parents is not evidence. Show me the evidence that the McCanns harmed Madeleine in any way. And please don't say they left her alone. Lots of children were left alone that day, and they are all well and happy. Madeleine was taken by a predator and she may still be alive.

[Pelicanette]

It appears that the Portuguese police have at least been accused of getting confessions by torture and intimidation in the past.

I do not trust them entirely but not because of that. I think they botched the case from the beginning and decided a good way to get the press and the public off their backs was to accuse the parents.

I think they tried to badger Kate into confessing and it did not work. I also think they were bluffing with some of the "evidence" they leaked.

In short, I think Kate and Gerry are very lucky to have resources to hire good lawyers who can protect them from possible police misconduct or even framing.

[Sharon]

It appears that the Portuguese police have at least been accused of getting confessions by torture and intimidation in the past.

I do not trust them entirely but not because of that. I think they botched the case from the beginning and decided a good way to get the press and the public off their backs was to accuse the parents.

I think they tried to badger Kate into confessing and it did not work. I also think they were bluffing with some of the "evidence" they leaked.

In short, I think Kate and Gerry are very lucky to have resources to hire good lawyers who can protect them from possible police misconduct or even framing.

Pelicanette, you are sooo logical and normal that it is refreshing. Sometimes it scares me to hear the thought process of some posters.

It fills me with relief when I know that there are people who can take in the whole picture and summerise it without ulterior motive or spectacular lies.

I cant tell you how many times my kids narrowly escaped injury or worse due to my mistakes. Sometimes you just have to take you eyes off them for a second! Luckily we dont have to pay the price for our mistakes or bad calls on judgement.

And as far as having regrets, Im sure every victim of crime/ accident has some regret of something they could have or should have done different. Sure the parents made it easy for the perp to steal their child, but there were probably many children in the same position that night.

I personally knew that the evidence was fudged. These police are (pretty much) copying the Azaria case (also Ramsay case?) with saying parents did it, and that there was hair and blood found in the car!!!! The Azaria case was bogus evidence too, the blood turned out to be jam!!!!

Hopefully ten years on, there will not be the same public reaction to bogus evidence. Ten years ago the public was literally seduced by such riviting evidence and `gossip` in the press. People to this day still hang on to the lies spread by the press at the time. Today, it is my opinion that society has grown up and learnt from past lessons.

Of course there will always be a less educated faction of society who thrives on gossip presented as news.

[dallasvic]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvislives http://boards.crimelibrary.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?p=8995660#post8995660)
I don;t think you needed to point that out, as it is patently obvious.

My concern and reasons for participating here ARE for Maddie and for all victims of crime for that matter.

I thought the JBR forum was a fluke, but this forum too now seems like a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show.

As always, my thoughts and prayers are with little Maddie, her family, and all victims of crime. :rose:

Elvislives is right.
Please everyone,

Let take a deep breath and remember why we are here.:rose:MADDIE:rose:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_02/MADELINEMOD1509_468x440.jpg
__________________

Elvis

Maddie needs you and we need you :rose: :rose:

[dallasvic]

:seeya: Hi Everyone,

The way i see it is the parents are only guilt of one thing and that is making a MISTAKE and they are paying for it dearly.

Sharon,
Please ask Elvis to come back we support her and need her and Maddie needs her.:rose:

[Jayelles]

We heard that there were "masses" of hair in the car. Not true. Later, we heard "fragments of hair that could not be matched to Madeleine or anyone else."

We heard something about "bodily fluids" in the car, but later there were not bodily fluids that could be matched to Madeleine.

We have heard that blood was found in the flat, in an adjoining flat, etc., but was it Madeleine's blood? Nope. Apparently it was not.

Enough with the "cadaver" smells. I think the police were bluffing about that. A so-called sniffer dog may have alerted, but believe me, the smell of a weeks old corpse would be so strong that sniffer dogs would not be necessary to detect it.

It is all so ludicrous and nasty. Rumors are not evidence. Innuendo is not evidence. Disliking the parents is not evidence. Show me the evidence that the McCanns harmed Madeleine in any way. And please don't say they left her alone. Lots of children were left alone that day, and they are all well and happy. Madeleine was taken by a predator and she may still be alive.


Not to mention the apparent unreliability of cadaver dogs. There is some case in America where the accuracy of cadaver dogs is being challenged.

The judge agreed with an analysis of the three dogs' track record by Zapata's defence team that found they were incorrect 78 per cent, 71 per cent and 62 per cent of the time.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482105&in_page_id=1770

[cat840]

The judge agreed with an analysis of the three dogs' track record by Zapata's defence team that found they were incorrect 78 per cent, 71 per cent and 62 per cent of the time.

Interesting stats Jay. But what does "incorrect" mean. Does it mean the dogs indicate on something that had not been in contact with decay or does it mean theat they could not find material that supposedly was there or maybe both?

Here are some more stats regarding finding actual remains. So these stats don't deal with indicating on something falsely for example.

"Specially trained air scent detection canines (Canis familiaris) are commonly used by law enforcement to detect narcotics, explosives or contraband, and by fire investigators to detect the presence of accelerants. Dogs are also used by police, military, and civilian groups to locate lost or missing persons, as well as victims of natural or mass disasters. A further subspecialty is "cadaver" searching, or the use of canines to locate buried or concealed human remains. Recent forensic investigations in central Alberta demonstrated that the use of cadaver dogs could be expanded to include locating partial, scattered human remains dispersed by repeated animal scavenging. Eight dog-and-handler teams participated in a two-month training program using human and animal remains in various stages of decay as scent sources. Ten blind field tests were then conducted which simulated actual search conditions. Recovery rates ranged between 57% and 100%, indicating that properly trained cadaver dogs can make significant contributions in the location and recovery of scattered human remains."
(J Forensic Sci. 1999 Mar ;44 (2):405-8 10097372)

[dallasvic]

Elvislives demanded that her entire account be deleted. That was her choice. I must honor that request. It is unfortunate, no doubt. She has demonstrated herself to be a caring and compassionate personal with extensive knowledge. For those that may have doubted she is, indeed, a board certified physicians- her credentials have been verified by CL. Her exit is a loss to the community.

The truth is that those that see themselves as advocates for victims need to have a longer view when participating in this type of community. There will always be those who blame the victim in every case. The job of a victim's advocate , in my view, is to systematically address those issues, actively report bad behavior by others and make their case on the board and with me. The member who started this was ultimately banned but despite that fact elvis still wanted to go... We all also have to remember that this type of a community is not for everyone. I have no doubt that elvis will continue to work for those that do not have a voice and I trust her judgment that her efforts are best spent in other ways than being a member here.

Fh20

Thank you FW,

ELVIS will truly be missed by me for sure:rose: :rose: :rose:

[cat840]

Here (http://law.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5818&context=expresso) is an interesting article about using detector dogs in general.

From the abtract:

"In this Article, Professor Myers argues that an alert, even by a well-trained
dog with an excellent track record in the field, cannot by itself constitute probable
cause to search."

[Sharon]

Elvislives demanded that her entire account be deleted. That was her choice. I must honor that request. It is unfortunate, no doubt. She has demonstrated herself to be a caring and compassionate person with extensive knowledge. For those that may have doubted she is, indeed, a board certified physicians- her credentials have been verified by CL. Her exit is a loss to the community.

The truth is that those that see themselves as advocates for victims need to have a long view when participating in this type of community. There will always be those who blame the victim in every case. The job of a victim's advocate , in my view, is to systematically address those issues, actively report bad behavior by others and make their case on the board and with me. The member who started this was ultimately banned but despite that fact elvis still wanted to go... We all also have to remember that this type of a community is not for everyone. I have no doubt that elvis will continue to work for those that do not have a voice and I trust her judgment that her efforts are best spent in other ways than being a member here.

Fh20

Thank you for that. You have done everything to make things fair including leaving the door open. I really hope that Elvis returns because I grew to admire and love her immensly. I never once doubted that she was a doctor because I know so many irl and she struck me as both highly knowledgable and credible. (For the extreem doubters of her creds...I think you need to reassess your detective skills on the whole!!!!)

Being a doctor, I always knew that Elvis`s time was so valuable, and that she was in effect giving us something very valuable for free. I know that over the time I posted with her I learnt so much.

I will always be grateful that I knew her even a little, because sometimes you can go through your whole life and never meet someone as clever and giving as Elvis.

And hopefully one day she will come back. I always say, never say never!!!!

[Mishell1383]

Thank you for that. You have done everything to make things fair including leaving the door open. I really hope that Elvis returns because I grew to admire and love her immensly. I never once doubted that she was a doctor because I know so many irl and she struck me as both highly knowledgable and credible. (For the extreem doubters of her creds...I think you need to reassess your detective skills on the whole!!!!)

Being a doctor, I always knew that Elvis`s time was so valuable, and that she was in effect giving us something very valuable for free. I know that over the time I posted with her I learnt so much.

I will always be grateful that I knew her even a little, because sometimes you can go through your whole life and never meet someone as clever and giving as Elvis.

And hopefully one day she will come back. I always say, never say never!!!!
I totally agree Sharon, and I too hope she will be back. I never like to say goodbye, I prefer see you later.

Elvis if your reading this just know how much you have brought to the people that cherished your knowledge and not to let a negative person efffect you and ruin it for the ones that honored you and what you taught us. :rose:

[dallasvic]

Elvis

We have all spoken and dearly miss you. Hopefully you will feel one day you can BLESS US with your presents again:rose: :rose: :rose:

[One2Snoop]

Yes, she will be missed dallas. I also hope elvislives will come back and I 10000000% appreciate the knowledge she's shared with us. I know when things like this happen sometimes we let our emotions get the better of us. I won't go into a long diatribe of what I do when that happens to me sort of thing. All I can say is that I know how much it hurts and sometimes taking a break isn't such a bad thing. I do hope elvislives will reconsider sometime down the road and I want her to know how much her input will be missed. :rose: :rose:

[Jayelles]

Elvis wishes she'd posted this before she left.

(paraphrased) - With regard to whether the parents of raped and murdered children want to know what their child endured - Yes they always do and Erin Runnion put it best:-

She said that "when your child is kidnapped by a pedophile your mind does not stop imagining every single ghastly thing that someone could be doing to her and all the while she's calling out for YOU....and once you endure the horror of having your child abducted, the horrible depraved thoughts that you imagine are endless".


I (Jayelles) think it's horrific enough for someone who isn't a parent to think of the suffering these children have endured. I cannot begin to imgine how I'd feel if it were my own child. My father died while I was out enjoying myself with a friend. I felt so guilty afterwards when I recalled myself having a nice time at the very point my father died.

[Jayelles]

From Gerry McCann's blog:-

We would like to thank everyone for their support. It helps us keep sight of the fact that the great majority of people in this world are good.

Kate and I have been very busy with our legal advisers as we want to be eliminated from the inquiry as soon as possible and start concentrating wholeheartedly again on the search for our daughter.

http://www.findmadeleine.com/

[andU]

Thank you for that. You have done everything to make things fair including leaving the door open. I really hope that Elvis returns because I grew to admire and love her immensly. I never once doubted that she was a doctor because I know so many irl and she struck me as both highly knowledgable and credible. (For the extreem doubters of her creds...I think you need to reassess your detective skills on the whole!!!!)

Being a doctor, I always knew that Elvis`s time was so valuable, and that she was in effect giving us something very valuable for free. I know that over the time I posted with her I learnt so much.

I will always be grateful that I knew her even a little, because sometimes you can go through your whole life and never meet someone as clever and giving as Elvis.

And hopefully one day she will come back. I always say, never say never!!!!

What a great attribute! I agree with you; Elivis has my total respect and admiration.

[rashomon]

That said, I don't think anyone objects that the McCanns were investigated. It would be irresponsible not to investigate them given the statistics on child murders.The criticism imo is NOT that the Portuguese police are investigating the parents, but rather their tactics.

If they were poor, Kate would likely be sitting in a Portuguese jail cell battered and bruised at the hands of the police (just like Leonor Cipriano...a mother whose child vanished under similar circumstances. She turned out to be innocent, but the Portuguese police--the same ones investigating the McCanns- violently brutalized her trying to get a confession).

Where does it say the Portuguese police "battered and bruised" Leonor Cirpriano's mother trying to get a confession? The poster who claimed this (Ellvislives) has now left the board, therefore I hope others here will provide a reliable source re that.

jmo

[Zoey]

Where does it say the Portuguese police violently brutalized Leonor Cirpriano's mother trying to get a confession? The poster who claimed this (Ellvislives) has now left the board, therefore I hope others here will provide a reliable source re that.

jmo


The nine-year-old girl has not been seen since her disappearance three years ago but her mother and uncle were convicted of murdering and dismembering Joana because she caught them having an incestuous relationship. Joana’s mother, Leonor, has alleged that she was beaten into a confession during a police interrogation that took place without her lawyer or the knowledge of the public prosecutor.

Portugal’s Ministerio Publico, the district attorney, confirmed last night that it had charged three police officers with torture, a fourth with omission of evidence and a fifth with falsification of documents. It did not reveal who had been charged with which offence.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1913175.ece

or this one

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=461111&in_page_id=1770

[Tia]

I am soooooooo new here. Anywa, when I first read about the news. WITHOUT prior knowledge to anything about this case and the gossips and stuff, the first impression I had....call it intuition..was that the parents are involved. I do not know why. I can't accuse though. But that was my feeling. Whatever it is, I hope whatever happened to Maddy, PLEASE have an answer soon. SAD SAD reality of life

[Jayelles]

I am soooooooo new here. Anywa, when I first read about the news. WITHOUT prior knowledge to anything about this case and the gossips and stuff, the first impression I had....call it intuition..was that the parents are involved. I do not know why. I can't accuse though. But that was my feeling. Whatever it is, I hope whatever happened to Maddy, PLEASE have an answer soon. SAD SAD reality of life


My intuition is that they are the distraught parents of a missing little girl who are doing everything within their power to try and find her.

[Mishell1383]

My intuition is that they are the distraught parents of a missing little girl who are doing everything within their power to try and find her.
I agree with you Jayelles, thats my take on the whole as well.

[Sharon]

I am soooooooo new here. Anywa, when I first read about the news. WITHOUT prior knowledge to anything about this case and the gossips and stuff, the first impression I had....call it intuition..was that the parents are involved. I do not know why. I can't accuse though. But that was my feeling. Whatever it is, I hope whatever happened to Maddy, PLEASE have an answer soon. SAD SAD reality of life

Welcome Tia. I can really relate to what you have said because when I first came to this board I got involved with another very similar crime to this. And I had always `believed` or had a `feeling` that it was the parents. I also dont know why I jumped to this conclusion from knowing very little.

As time went on and I began to learn more, and do my own research, I changed my mind. It taught me that often there is much more than meets the eye. Infact you can never stop learning in a place like this!!!

[dallasvic]

i agree with Jay & Shell. Maddie's parents did not do this. Another thing is they are doctors and took oaths to DO No Harm. What are the chances 2 doctors in the same family going againest that OATH ?:shrug:

[One2Snoop]

i agree with Jay & Shell. Maddie's parents did not do this. Another thing is they are doctors and took oaths to DO No Harm. What are the chances 2 doctors in the same family going againest that OATH ?:shrug:

Thanks for bringing up that very important point dallasvic. Having worked most of my life in a medical setting I'd say zilch. I'm not a doctor or nurse - my background is Medical Records/Healthcare Marketing/Management. My answer is still "zilch", not a chance.

Hippocratic Oath—Modern Version

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.html

I remember having to memorize the classical version while in school....

Hippocrates, the father of medicine
Hippocratic Oath -- Classical Version
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_classical.html

[Jayelles]

Whilst it's true that doctors promise to respect life, there are doctors who have killed - Dr Fred Shipman and Dr Crippen are two who spring to mind. It is therefore not the Hippocratic Oath which makes me think the McCanns are innocent, but rather the whole picture of behaviour and evidence (or lack of).

[dallasvic]

Whilst it's true that doctors promise to respect life, there are doctors who have killed - Dr Fred Shipman and Dr Crippen are two who spring to mind. It is therefore not the Hippocratic Oath which makes me think the McCanns are innocent, but rather the whole picture of behaviour and evidence (or lack of).


I agree with what you are saying about the overall pic, what is the chance of 2 doc in the same family doing this ?
The other doc did not kill their kids did they it was patients wasit not ?:shrug:

[cat840]

Another thing is they are doctors and took oaths to DO No Harm. What are the chances 2 doctors in the same family going againest that OATH

Very very small IMO.
A person can only be killed once IMO.

[cat840]

A person can only be killed once

I stand corrected http://www.snopes.com/horrors/freakish/opus.asp ;)

[dallasvic]

Very very small IMO.
A person can only be killed once IMO.


:confused: ?????

[Jayelles]

I agree with what you are saying about the overall pic, what is the chance of 2 doc in the same family doing this ?
The other doc did not kill their kids did they it was patients wasit not ?:shrug:

Crippen killed his wife. Fred Shipman killed hundreds of his patients!

[dallasvic]

Crippen killed his wife. Fred Shipman killed hundreds of his patients!

Thanks Jay,

I read so much I can't remember anymore. :confused:

[Tia]

Hey hey, I am back. IT WAS JUST intuition. And I read about this case without knowing what happened and what not. I was just reading news in msn since I was too lazy to buy a newspaper DOWNSTAIRS ACROSS the road. But I stand corrected about things. The feeling that suddenly smacked into me was something is not right witht he parents. THAT was it. But the mum does look very frail and old now. AGE? Or heart broken? Don't know. :shrug: The thing that really struck me the hardest was when Kate Mccann held the toy to her nose all the time. Seemed a bit too dramatic (rephrase: FAKE? Like what we only see in movies?) to me. This is JUST opinion. MY GREATEST hope is AN ANSWER soon PLEASE. She is such a cutie pie. MIND YOU. I AM using IS because I still have hopes.

[andU]

Whilst it's true that doctors promise to respect life, there are doctors who have killed - Dr Fred Shipman and Dr Crippen are two who spring to mind. It is therefore not the Hippocratic Oath which makes me think the McCanns are innocent, but rather the whole picture of behaviour and evidence (or lack of).

Yeah, and don't forget 'Dr. Death" ... Kovorkian (sp?)

[dallasvic]

I still think Maddie is alive and her parents do not have a thing to do with it. Their grief is real.

[Jayelles]

I still think Maddie is alive and her parents do not have a thing to do with it. Their grief is real.


I agree Vic. I haven't felt so sure about anything since the Danielle van Dam case. I don't see cold, unemotional parents. I think they are handling this in different ways. Kate seems numb with shock and at times seems to be barely holding together. Gerry threw himself into "doing" - trying to be proactive in the campaign, trying to stay positive for himself and family. He is a very confident individual anyway. I know three people who know him personally and they all say the same thing - very confident, very clever, very talented and very popular.

[Jayelles]

Yeah, and don't forget 'Dr. Death" ... Kovorkian (sp?)

Oh I don't know that one - is he Russian?

ETA - there was another Dr Murder. I can't remember his name, but it was one of the first cases where forensic sciecne came into play. Someone superimposed his victim's skull onto a photo of her in life and that was how they identified her. It was long ago before DNA.

[bullmoose]

Oh I don't know that one - is he Russian?

ETA - there was another Dr Murder. I can't remember his name, but it was one of the first cases where forensic sciecne came into play. Someone superimposed his victim's skull onto a photo of her in life and that was how they identified her. It was long ago before DNA.

Dr. Kevorkian is a doctor from Michigan that became infamous because his stance on and actually helping terminal patients to commit suicide, rather than suffer in the last stages of disease. He built a number of simple effective suicide machines; I think his main purpose was to spur debate and change attitudes and practices. What happened was that authorities in Michigan successfully prosecuted him and sent him to prison for seven or so years; he just got out, I think. I think maybe he's an oddball, but not a killer, in the sense of murdering anyone. He just helped people terminate themselves painlessly tha were dying already. JMHO:eek:

[Jayelles]

Dr. Kevorkian is a doctor from Michigan that became infamous because his stance on and actually helping terminal patients to commit suicide, rather than suffer in the last stages of disease. He built a number of simple effective suicide machines; I think his main purpose was to spur debate and change attitudes and practices. What happened was that authorities in Michigan successfully prosecuted him and sent him to prison for seven or so years; he just got out, I think. I think maybe he's an oddball, but not a killer, in the sense of murdering anyone. He just helped people terminate themselves painlessly tha were dying already. JMHO:eek:

Aha. I think I know who you're talking about. I think he was on our news recently - did he die or was he released or something? He's an old man now isn't he (if I'm thinking about the same person) and did his family all stand by him?

[andU]

Oh I don't know that one - is he Russian?

ETA - there was another Dr Murder. I can't remember his name, but it was one of the first cases where forensic sciecne came into play. Someone superimposed his victim's skull onto a photo of her in life and that was how they identified her. It was long ago before DNA.

I'm unsure of his nationality; but he has assisted terminally ill patients here in the states to commit suicide; he has served time for it and was fairly recently released. He's aged and rather frail looking. I'll pm a link if you want more.

[andU]

Aha. I think I know who you're talking about. I think he was on our news recently - did he die or was he released or something? He's an old man now isn't he (if I'm thinking about the same person) and did his family all stand by him?

Hmmm I don't have much recollection of his family at all. Do you Bullmoose? Yes, he was just released; seems like he is either ill or very frail.

[bullmoose]

Hmmm I don't have much recollection of his family at all. Do you Bullmoose? Yes, he was just released; seems like he is either ill or very frail.

As best I recall, Dr. Kevorkian is of Armenian descent, a bachelor with no living family that could be found; yes when they let him out he looked really frail; but then he looked frail before going to prison; I think he's in his late 70's. JMHO

[Charon]

Hippocratic Oath—Modern Version

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.Shipman: Following the discovery of Shipman's over-prescribing, a covert investigation by the practice — including Dr. John Dacre — followed. To his alarm, he discovered many patients on the prescription list had neither required nor received the drug
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.Harold Shipman: He also had a way of getting things done his way — even with the more experienced doctors in the practice.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. Shipman:A clinical audit commissioned by the Department of Health estimates his responsibility for the deaths of at least 236 patients over a 24-year period.

If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.On Shipman: "He was exercising the ultimate power of controlling life and death, and repeated the act so often he must have found the drama of taking life to his taste."

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. he (Shipman
)said, "The only thing I did wrong was not having her cremated. If I had had her cremated I wouldn't be having all this trouble."May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.On Tuesday, January 13, 2004 , Dr. Harold Shipman, Britain's worst serial killer, was discovered at 6 a.m. hanging in his prison cell. He apparently committed suicide in Wakefield prison, where he had been incarcerated since June of 2003 after being moved from Durham prison.

Yes, not everyone takes the oath as they should.

[Jayelles]

I'm unsure of his nationality; but he has assisted terminally ill patients here in the states to commit suicide; he has served time for it and was fairly recently released. He's aged and rather frail looking. I'll pm a link if you want more.

Thanks, but I think it's the same person I'm thinking on. I saw a tv programme about him recently.

[andU]

Thanks, but I think it's the same person I'm thinking on. I saw a tv programme about him recently.


Probably was; a slight little old fella, looks harmless enough. I believe he is now attempting to lobby for laws to be changed and vowed not to assist with another suicide.