Discussion Thread 2007 (Part 3)

[Riviera]

---->Natalee Holloway II The disappearance of Natalee Holloway in Aruba

[Chocoholic]

Dang, my reply is going to have to wait until later, but I know how everybody looks forward to my POV. Hang in there :biggrin:

[fairmaiden]

Let's be clear

Calling Joran etc. murderers, rapists, criminals - It is very common for the last person to see a person who then goes missing to be considered a POI. That some have reached a conclusion of foul play by these POIs is fine. Just state it as YOUR OPINION. Whether you agree or not - it is equally logical to assume Natalee did not run away but meet with foul play. If she met with foul play it is logical to assume that those last in her company might well have done something to her. State opinions as such and there will be no issues here.

Talking about Natalee giving Joran a blow job - OK but so what? Even if I were to assume this is true it most certainly would not imply that if some thing tragic happened to Natalee (say rape) that even instigating a BJ would make raping her OK. Rape is an act of violence not sex and even if a woman is naked on a beach - no man has a right to rape her. period. Blaming the victim just doesn't fly - and no I am not saying that Natalee was a victim of foul play but if this is your position (no crime committed) then don't IMPLY that if there was a crime somehow she deserved it.

Natalee was secretly a prostitute - No way!!! Again this is baseless and victim bashing. I will not allow it.


Jug talking about Natalee's privates - OK let's say that Jug was sexually molesting his step daughter (this is a BIG IF by the way....) but so what... He wasn't in Aruba at the time of the disappearance. If you want to assume that an incestuous relationship existed and that Natalee planned to run away in Aruba because of it then I would think there would have been some planning on Natalee's part. Any additional evidence that she planned to leave? Do you all believe that Beth Twitty would not call JUG out in public if she even suspected any wrong doing on his part? For those that think BHT would go there with Joran et al. without "proof" you don't think she would go there with her ex husband if she even remotely suspected? How about Dave Holloway? Do you think he would remain silent if there was even a suspicion on his part? If you do then make your case and stated it as your opinion only.


Follow the Rules/Play Nice

Freshwater

Thank you for this, FW. I think it's unfortunate that every once in a while we "messageboard posters" need to be called upon to act like adults.

You are correct when you say the discussion becomes very unproductive. Those of us who have more or less followed this case from the beginning have formed opinions, and more or less stayed with them. This has been a long case, and because it happened in Aruba, we are not privy to a lot which might have taken place .... taking us to the point of so many unanswered questions. What we DO know however, is that we have a list of "suspects" ((POI's)) .... some of which have spent time in jail, presumably have been interrogated over a period of months .... then they were released. From what WE ((messageboard posters)) know, there is no evidence of any crimes. Again .... this could be something messageboard posters just don't know.

The problem I have is .... Beth became very involved in this case, from the beginning. Obviously, she WOULD, because her daughter is missing .... her involvement is understandable .... however, her ACTIONS are not, IMO .... for example, requesting a boycott of Aruba, being one . Calling people "criminals" before anything has been proven .... broadcasting to anyone who cares to listen that her daughter has been kidnapped, gangraped, and her life "taken" from her .... INVITES criticism, since NONE of that has been proven.

It's interesting to discuss that Natalee might have voluntarily left, and that she might have taken the opportunity to do so while she was in Aruba. IF this was being done very clandestinely on Natalee's part .... no one would really KNOW of any plans she might have made. She very well MAY have made them, and we just are not aware of them. After all, this could have been something she was going to do very secretly.

There is absolutely no doubt .... Joran et al seem to be the last KNOWN people Natalee was with. There is absolutely no doubt those three lied about the events of that night. There are approximately 6 - 7 other "suspects" though. Do we know that their statements are truthful ?? What has to be taken into consideration though, at least I think so, is that Natalee's mother has told different versions of the same occurrence. That, in itself, is odd to me. For the life of me, I can't understand why that would be necessary.

The latest venture of Beth's .... she has written a book, telling the "true story of the kidnapping in Aruba" ((may be para.)). My question is .... how does she KNOW the true story .... why hasn't she TOLD the "true story" until now .... who told HER the true story ?? We know she wasn't there. She has said, along with other members of her family, that they are not being filled in with every detail of the investigation .... how would she know the truth ??

Hopefully, come November .... this case will either be dropped, or brought to trial .

JMO

[HiLife]

I am sure Beth will NEVER allow this case "to be dropped, " just because some Aruban court thinks it should be dropped. No one would expect anything less from a mother who loves her child and wants those who disappeared her brought to justice.

The statements from J2K are a lesson in lying. Nothing is corroborated and there is STILL no final story as to how the main suspect, Joran, even arrived home. If the other suspects were dropped, then their statements must have rung true to both the ALE and KLPD (haven't they been lauded as a stellar police force?). IMO, it is not possible for so many others to achieve the level of lying produced by J2K.

J2K were last seen with Natalee. J2K derailed the investigation with their callous lies. How?

Who could be so cold-hearted as to send frantic parents on a wild goose chase to the Holiday Inn with their FIRST lie, thereby wasting what everyone knows are the most crucial opportunities to find any missing person?

Another huge product of their vile lying, was that precious time was lost, even to review film taken along Joran's supposed walking route home. It was noted that usually these places erase the tapes by the second day. Thanks to J2K lies, they ruined any chance of investigators conducting their investigation.

J2K's lying and several conflicting stories/statements/scenarios scream out that they are hiding something. Innocent people do not need to lie like this. Innocent people (or anyone with a conscience) do not purposefully hinder an investigation regarding a missing person. I can't even imagine what kind of black-hearted soul would do this.

It is my fervent wish that the monster(s) who harmed Natalee, whoever they may be, never know a moment of peace.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Fairmaiden, thank you for your delightful and insightful response. KUDOS to you girl!

"Vile" lies?

Hmm Let's start here.

J2K were called criminals. They aren't. Not by anybody's standards, unless one wishes to go so low as to stoop to bht's level and even she had to publicly apologize for that lie.

Natalee is virginal and doesn't drink. Oh oops she drinks responsibly. Oh oops she doesn't drink responsibly. She was carried into her hotel room in at least once by one of the MB male students.

Natalee drank so responsibly she just started first thing in the morning and her fellow students told her to slow down.

Natalee was so virginal that she had a bet going with her friends as to whom she was going to hook up with.

Dave says he has a life insurance policy on Natalee, bht says it doesn't exist. Who is lying?

An eight year full ride scholarship for a supposedly bright student for a four year course of pre-med?

I could go on, but continuing to talk about the endless vile ies that bht has told becomes boring.

Why would the mother of a missing woman lie?

Links available at scrux and other internet sources.

[HiLife]

Beth could bathe in ice cream, walk across America on her hands or sit on a rock gazing out at the sea from sunup to sundown. Point here is that Beth's actions have no bearing on Natalee's disappearance. It is a FACT that Beth, or any other Holloway/Twitty parental sphere, has nothing to do with Natalee's disappearance. The family know things and experienced things we messageboard posters cannot possibly know.

Accusations of Beth lying is a concerted attempt to deflect from the real issue and suspects. I'll go one further. Even if Beth were found to be a pathological liar (like Joran), it STILL wouldn't matter a whit. Has no bearing on this case. Beth, Jug, Dave, Robin, Marcia et al were not on Aruba. It is common knowledge that LE looks at the last person(s) seen with the victim.

It is THEIR actions that must be scrutinized, focused on and examined under a microscope. THEIR lies that must be parsed and questioned. Instead of focusing on such a non-issue, as Natalee's family who were in Alabama at the moment J2K left with Natalee, it would be much more productive (if indeed, the hope is to find Natalee) to focus and examine the actual suspects and their myriad, as of this day, unexplained lies.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Let's be clear

Calling Joran etc. murderers, rapists, criminals - It is very common for the last person to see a person who then goes missing to be considered a POI. That some have reached a conclusion of foul play by these POIs is fine. Just state it as YOUR OPINION. Whether you agree or not - it is equally logical to assume Natalee did not run away but meet with foul play. If she met with foul play it is logical to assume that those last in her company might well have done something to her. State opinions as such and there will be no issues here.

Talking about Natalee giving Joran a blow job - OK but so what? Even if I were to assume this is true it most certainly would not imply that if some thing tragic happened to Natalee (say rape) that even instigating a BJ would make raping her OK. Rape is an act of violence not sex and even if a woman is naked on a beach - no man has a right to rape her. period. Blaming the victim just doesn't fly - and no I am not saying that Natalee was a victim of foul play but if this is your position (no crime committed) then don't IMPLY that if there was a crime somehow she deserved it.

Natalee was secretly a prostitute - No way!!! Again this is baseless and victim bashing. I will not allow it.


Jug talking about Natalee's privates - OK let's say that Jug was sexually molesting his step daughter (this is a BIG IF by the way....) but so what... He wasn't in Aruba at the time of the disappearance. If you want to assume that an incestuous relationship existed and that Natalee planned to run away in Aruba because of it then I would think there would have been some planning on Natalee's part. Any additional evidence that she planned to leave? Do you all believe that Beth Twitty would not call JUG out in public if she even suspected any wrong doing on his part? For those that think BHT would go there with Joran et al. without "proof" you don't think she would go there with her ex husband if she even remotely suspected? How about Dave Holloway? Do you think he would remain silent if there was even a suspicion on his part? If you do then make your case and stated it as your opinion only.


Follow the Rules/Play Nice

Freshwater

Some good points and questions.

Although the point is often made that J2K lied, it doesn't make sense that they lied about everything and even ALE consent that since they were arrested, their stories have remained pretty much the same. Having seen people break under the pressure of only 12 hrs of interrogation, I state fairly confidently that Joran has said all that he could say about the case. I somebody lying? Yes but there are also a bunch of other suspects.

Since the comment about bht being HItler's sisters daughter, or whatever imagined relationship Natalee may have ascribed was told to more people than just Joran, it would make sense that apparently Nat wasn't that happy at home. This is normal for a teen. It is just as normal for said teen to have thoughts about running away or suicide. Since there is no evidence of a crime whatsoever, we can only go by what hasn't happened.

I doubt that three law enforcement agencies have conspired to cover up a crime/evidence just to protect a Dutch teen. It would mean that not only ALE, but also KLPD and the FBI are corrupt. Ok maybe that isn't a great leap of imagination. Where is Hoover?

I don't recall anybody calling Natalee a prostitute. I recall people stating that she was a normal teen and behaved in a fairly normal teenage way. She drank, she partied and whether or not she is a virgin IMO should have no impact on the case in as far as the investigation goes. The fact that it was stressed by bht that Natalee was a virgin, and is as naive as a small child flies directly in the face of Jug's statements of Natalee's rather personal grooming. It wasn't as though he was talking about Natalee shaving her legs.


Interesting question How about Dave Holloway? Do you think he would remain silent if there was even a suspicion on his part?

Dave has been out of the loop since Natalee left his home. They rarely saw each other. Natalee had to beg and borrow to find a ticket for her father to attend her graduation. Dave was not consulted regarding the Aruba trip, he was simply told Natalee was going, he found it extravagant but gave her money to cover some of the costs anyway.

Dave was informed by his son that his daughter was missing. Dave has received most of his information from his ex wife who is not just misinformed but is on a campaign to distribute false information (kidnapping, murder and rape).

Dave I'm sure loves his daughter but is rather clueless. I doubt that if Jug was molesting Natalee he would have been informed. bht would have ensured that that little secret would have been kept behind closed doors. Next to running away being daddy's precious little girl would not have made a good impression on the wealthy neighbors.

All IMO of course.

[Chocoholic]

Beth could bathe in ice cream, walk across America on her hands or sit on a rock gazing out at the sea from sunup to sundown. Point here is that Beth's actions have no bearing on Natalee's disappearance.

bht didn't bathe in ice cream, she got a facelift instead. My point is that bht may have had every bearing on Natalee's disappearance. The references to her mother being "hitler's sister's daughter" and not wishing to return to Alabama are enough cause for concern.

imo

[HiLife]

bht didn't bathe in ice cream, she got a facelift instead. My point is that bht may have had every bearing on Natalee's disappearance. The references to her mother being "hitler's sister's daughter" and not wishing to return to Alabama are enough cause for concern.

imo

Prove it.

jmo

[Heyes]

I felt that joran, deepak and satish were knee deep in Natalee's disappearance, but when this bit of news was released it removed all doubt in my mind. Clearly after hearing this I felt that paulus was involved and anita was working overtime at getting this covered up. IMO

Aruba's chief prosecutor Karin Janssen told CNN Wednesday the elder Van Der Sloot told his son that without a body police would have no case.

In addition, he and his wife, Anita, interfered in the case by asking a friend of their son what he had told police during questioning, Janssen said.

"That was not positive to the investigation," she said.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/30/aruba.missing/index.html?iref=newssearch

[Riviera]

Bumping Freshwater's message---->

Follow the Rules/Play Nice

Thank you
R

[Heyes]

When asked if Joran had ever been involved in drugs, Anita said: "A hundred percent, no.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160514,00.html




Jorans book transcripts
"August 11th 2005

Joran is woken at 7:00am for a drug test. He says, "Cell mates quickly provide me with a little bag of urine from someone who had never 'blowed' before. In front of the guard i need to pull the little bag out of my zipper and deposit the content into a small container. I'm very nervous, but i manage to do it. Results are negative. Only two people in the youth department of KIA recieved severe detention for the use of marihuana, the rest all tested negatively since they used the urine of the boy who had never 'blowed'."


Is anita a liar?????

[SukiJane]

When asked if Joran had ever been involved in drugs, Anita said: "A hundred percent, no.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160514,00.html




Jorans book transcripts
"August 11th 2005

Joran is woken at 7:00am for a drug test. He says, "Cell mates quickly provide me with a little bag of urine from someone who had never 'blowed' before. In front of the guard i need to pull the little bag out of my zipper and deposit the content into a small container. I'm very nervous, but i manage to do it. Results are negative. Only two people in the youth department of KIA recieved severe detention for the use of marihuana, the rest all tested negatively since they used the urine of the boy who had never 'blowed'."


Is anita a liar?????

Well Heyes, I suppose it can best be explained by saying suspects lie, and suspects mother cover for them, I guess...I don't know, but look at at what Anita says here, as the date on this article is June 24th 2005...

When asked if Joran had changed his initial story, she replied, "Joran changed his story only one time. I think he was scared because he sneaked out of the house that evening. I think he was scared and wanted to cover other people too. He changed his story once and added details."

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050624/suspect.shtml

[No Nic]

When asked if Joran had ever been involved in drugs, Anita said: "A hundred percent, no.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160514,00.html




Jorans book transcripts
"August 11th 2005

Joran is woken at 7:00am for a drug test. He says, "Cell mates quickly provide me with a little bag of urine from someone who had never 'blowed' before. In front of the guard i need to pull the little bag out of my zipper and deposit the content into a small container. I'm very nervous, but i manage to do it. Results are negative. Only two people in the youth department of KIA recieved severe detention for the use of marihuana, the rest all tested negatively since they used the urine of the boy who had never 'blowed'."


Is anita a liar?????

Such a "sporter".

Per Anita Van der Sloot:
Does Joran use drugs,, No (a lie)
Does Joran smoke, No (a lie)
Did Joran have anything to do with Natalee's disappearance, No (a lie)

Why would THIS mother LIE ? (oops....maybe she is just "covering-up a little bit :eek: )

ALL MY OPINION

[pnavas]

I felt that joran, deepak and satish were knee deep in Natalee's disappearance, but when this bit of news was released it removed all doubt in my mind. Clearly after hearing this I felt that paulus was involved and anita was working overtime at getting this covered up. IMO

Aruba's chief prosecutor Karin Janssen told CNN Wednesday the elder Van Der Sloot told his son that without a body police would have no case.

In addition, he and his wife, Anita, interfered in the case by asking a friend of their son what he had told police during questioning, Janssen said.

"That was not positive to the investigation," she said.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/30/aruba.missing/index.html?iref=newssearch

Anita asking the friend what he told police is proof of a coverup? That is a marvelous leap of logic that I am not willing to follow. What evidence did she coverup? What evidence did she destroy? The intention of asking questions, even inappropriate questions, is to uncover, to reveal, to shed light upon -- not to cover up.

As for the "no body, no case" statement. Big deal. That statement is not evidence of guilt, or evidence of a crime, or evidence of anything at all except a father who was applying his knowledge of the law to the situation at hand. Again, big deal.

JMO

[No Nic]

Anita asking the friend what he told police is proof of a coverup? That is a marvelous leap of logic that I am not willing to follow. What evidence did she coverup? What evidence did she destroy? The intention of asking questions, even inappropriate questions, is to uncover, to reveal, to shed light upon -- not to cover up. Every time Joran was caught in one of his lies, another was told. IMO, they needed to know what Joran's friend said in case they needed to change their current version of the lies. No leap there.

As for the "no body, no case" statement. Big deal. That statement is not evidence of guilt, or evidence of a crime, or evidence of anything at all except a father who was applying his knowledge of the law to the situation at hand. Again, big deal. It is big deal, why was Paulus even discussing a body, IIRC the day after Natalee was missing (girls go missing in Aruba ALL THE TIME and turn up, remember)? Again, IMO, because he knew there was a body and he knew where it was and that it would NEVER be found.

JMO

My OPINION in red.

[HiLife]

Well Heyes, I suppose it can best be explained by saying suspects lie, and suspects mother cover for them, I guess...I don't know, but look at at what Anita says here, as the date on this article is June 24th 2005...

When asked if Joran had changed his initial story, she replied, "Joran changed his story only one time. I think he was scared because he sneaked out of the house that evening. I think he was scared and wanted to cover other people too. He changed his story once and added details."

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050624/suspect.shtml

The thought of Joran selflessly "covering other people".......!

The thought of Joran being "scared"........!

The thought of Joran only changing his story "one" time......!

This can only come from a mother in deep denial, IMO.

jmo

[HiLife]

When asked if Joran had ever been involved in drugs, Anita said: "A hundred percent, no.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160514,00.html

Jorans book transcripts
"August 11th 2005

Joran is woken at 7:00am for a drug test. He says, "Cell mates quickly provide me with a little bag of urine from someone who had never 'blowed' before. In front of the guard i need to pull the little bag out of my zipper and deposit the content into a small container. I'm very nervous, but i manage to do it. Results are negative. Only two people in the youth department of KIA recieved severe detention for the use of marihuana, the rest all tested negatively since they used the urine of the boy who had never 'blowed'."

Is anita a liar?????

Wow. Isn't that the height of fearlessness? Doing drugs in prison??

Pardon me, but I thought prison time serves as a time for reflection, redemption, repentance, remorse.

Reality check.

jmo

[pnavas]

My OPINION in red.

I'm not sure how to re-quote your amendments to my original post, so I'll just say this about "no body, no case":

Thank goodness Paulus was able to insert some reason and clarity into a hysterical situation. With that one statement Paulus revealed himself to be both a good father and a good lawyer. Bravo.

JMO

[ortiga]

Wow. Isn't that the height of fearlessness? Doing drugs in prison??

Pardon me, but I thought prison time serves as a time for reflection, redemption, repentance, remorse.

Reality check.

jmo

Reality check: he was not, and still is not accused of a crime, and there was no crime even proven to have taken place, repeat: still there is no crime proven to have taken place. No indictment, no body, no proof of wrongdoing, no proof of sexual assault, and of course no proof of kidnapping, gang rape or murder despite the immoral and obscene (IMO) and baseless accusations by the mother. No proof that Natalee did not choose to leave the life she had been living in Alabama, and, of course no proof whatsoever that she did not take a late night swim, under the influence, which ended her life.

So why should he focus on reflection, redemption, repentance, and remorse for something he obviously was not charged for and says he is innocent of?

I know it is difficult to understand, Arlene tried to explain it to Americans many times:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8386278/
"ELLIS-SCHIPPER: Well, charge is the wrong legal term here.

In our system, we‘re dealing with reasonable suspicion of involvement in a criminal offense. And what makes this case difficult is because we are not knowing what the criminal offense is, that you just have a suspicion of a criminal offense. And then you have suspects to be suspected involved in a suspected criminal offense. So, it makes it very complicated, which makes your case hard against someone. And I think that is what makes it so difficult to understand here."

IMO

[HiLife]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnavas
Anita asking the friend what he told police is proof of a coverup? That is a marvelous leap of logic that I am not willing to follow. What evidence did she coverup? What evidence did she destroy? The intention of asking questions, even inappropriate questions, is to uncover, to reveal, to shed light upon -- not to cover up. Every time Joran was caught in one of his lies, another was told. IMO, they needed to know what Joran's friend said in case they needed to change their current version of the lies. No leap there.

As for the "no body, no case" statement. Big deal. That statement is not evidence of guilt, or evidence of a crime, or evidence of anything at all except a father who was applying his knowledge of the law to the situation at hand. Again, big deal. It is big deal, why was Paulus even discussing a body, IIRC the day after Natalee was missing (girls go missing in Aruba ALL THE TIME and turn up, remember)? Again, IMO, because he knew there was a body and he knew where it was and that it would NEVER be found.

JMO

My OPINION in red.

Excellent logic, NN! Paulus seemed to be jumping the gun there about the dead body scenario. Too bad Paulus decided to act as an enabling father and a lawyer for his son, instead of "applying his knowledge" in searching for the truth from his son.

jmo

[HiLife]

<snipped>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8386278/
"ELLIS-SCHIPPER: Well, charge is the wrong legal term here.

In our system, we‘re dealing with reasonable suspicion of involvement in a criminal offense. And what makes this case difficult is because we are not knowing what the criminal offense is, that you just have a suspicion of a criminal offense. And then you have suspects to be suspected involved in a suspected criminal offense. So, it makes it very complicated, which makes your case hard against someone. And I think that is what makes it so difficult to understand here."

IMO

LOL! I think SHE'S difficult to understand here! LOL! Arlene Ellis-Schipper, the Aruba Spin-meister. Even the talking heads on a Nancy Grace show were mocking her and how she never answers a question. Her agenda was to protect Aruba at all costs.

Haven't I seen that somewhere? Oh yeah.......great sig line, NN! :)

jmo

[ortiga]

LOL! I think SHE'S difficult to understand here! LOL! Arlene Ellis-Schipper, the Aruba Spin-meister. Even the talking heads on a Nancy Grace show were mocking her and how she never answers a question. Her agenda was to protect Aruba at all costs.

Haven't I seen that somewhere? Oh yeah.......great sig line, NN! :)

jmo

Yes, sometimes it is difficult for professionals, both foreigners and from the US, to reduce complex ideas to the sound bites required by the tabloid shows. I guess that's why, 2 years later, so many Americans that follow this case seem to be oblivious to the differences in law between Aruba and the US.

IMO

[HiLife]

Yes, sometimes it is difficult for professionals, both foreigners and from the US, to reduce complex ideas to the sound bites required by the tabloid shows. I guess that's why, 2 years later, so many Americans that follow this case seem to be oblivious to the differences in law between Aruba and the US.

IMO

Actually, I think Arlene Schipper has an excellent grasp of the English language. It is her agenda that created the confusion.

I don't think any of us need to know Aruban law to understand that J2K are the main suspects because they were the last to be seen with the disappeared girl. This is a red flag for any LE, in any country. Oh, and they lied and lied and lied.

Nope, doesn't matter whether it happened in Aruba or Timbuktu.

jmo

[No Nic]

LOL! I think SHE'S difficult to understand here! LOL! Arlene Ellis-Schipper, the Aruba Spin-meister. Even the talking heads on a Nancy Grace show were mocking her and how she never answers a question. Her agenda was to protect Aruba at all costs.

Haven't I seen that somewhere? Oh yeah.......great sig line, NN! :)

jmo

Seems that I remember at one time she admitted that she was working for the tourism association (IIRC), nuff said.

imo

[pnavas]

LOL! I think SHE'S difficult to understand here! LOL! Arlene Ellis-Schipper, the Aruba Spin-meister. Even the talking heads on a Nancy Grace show were mocking her and how she never answers a question. Her agenda was to protect Aruba at all costs.

Haven't I seen that somewhere? Oh yeah.......great sig line, NN! :)

jmo

Is there something in her quote that is not true?

It makes complete sense that a case becomes entirely more difficult when we don't know the nature of the criminal offense. Sorry, I don't see evidence of the ever-elusive, ever-convenient "Agenda".

BTW I wonder if English is Arlene's first language. Imagine the difficulty of trying to explain the legalities of this complicated case using a language with which you are not entirely comfortable. Then imagine having to do it on TV. Then imagine being mocked because maybe you didn't use the proper word or craft the proper sentence. I feel for her.

JMO

[ortiga]

Is there something in her quote that is not true?

It makes complete sense that a case becomes entirely more difficult when we don't know the nature of the criminal offense. Sorry, I don't see evidence of the ever-elusive, ever-convenient "Agenda".

BTW I wonder if English is Arlene's first language. Imagine the difficulty of trying to explain the legalities of this complicated case using a language with which you are not entirely comfortable. Then imagine having to do it on TV. Then imagine being mocked because maybe you didn't use the proper word or craft the proper sentence. I feel for her.

JMO

"Agenda" is a very good example of a sound bite that results when complex, hard-to-understand concepts are brushed aside, or hastily summarized by those who have difficulty absorbing the details of any system they are not familiar with in America.

IMO

[HiLife]

Is there something in her quote that is not true?

It makes complete sense that a case becomes entirely more difficult when we don't know the nature of the criminal offense. Sorry, I don't see evidence of the ever-elusive, ever-convenient "Agenda".

BTW I wonder if English is Arlene's first language. Imagine the difficulty of trying to explain the legalities of this complicated case using a language with which you are not entirely comfortable. Then imagine having to do it on TV. Then imagine being mocked because maybe you didn't use the proper word or craft the proper sentence. I feel for her.

JMO

Sorry I didn't make myself clear. Arlene was not being mocked for her English (which is excellent). She was being mocked due to her inability to answer a question in a straightfoward manner. If Arlene was worried about "sound bites" - it didn't show.....because instead of giving a direct, simple answer, she chose the runaround route. No one appreciates a BSer in such a serious case.

Oh, as for me, I reserve my sympathy for the Holloway/Twitty family, who having lost a child on that island, still could not get a straight or direct answer from Arlene Schipper or anyone else. No need to be a lawyer or understand Aruban law to understand that!

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Seems that I remember at one time she admitted that she was working for the tourism association (IIRC), nuff said.

imo
Was she working with Natalee's aunt?

[pnavas]

"Agenda" is a very good example of a sound bite that results when complex, hard to understand concepts are brushed aside, or hastily summarized by those who have difficulty absorbing the details of any system they are not familiar with in America.

IMO

You know....you are right. It's so much easier to simply tag her as "suspicious" than it is to read through her quotes carefully and with an open mind.

JMO

[HiLife]

"Agenda" is a very good example of a sound bite that results when complex, hard-to-understand concepts are brushed aside, or hastily summarized by those who have difficulty absorbing the details of any system they are not familiar with in America.

IMO

Sorry if you misunderstood. See my post to pnavas. It is not about Law. It is about human nature. Trying to make it about "law" or "foreigners" is misconstruing the conversation.

imo

[HiLife]

Seems that I remember at one time she admitted that she was working for the tourism association (IIRC), nuff said.

imo

"Agenda" should be added to Arlene's, Jossy's, TiTo Lacle's, Steve Cohen's as a hyphenated last name. They were sent out nightly with one purpose - to protect Aruba's tourism industry (or in Jossy's case, protecting his self-interest). Laughable. That is, unless you're Natalee's family.

jmo

[ortiga]

"Agenda" should be added to Arlene's, Jossy's, TiTo Lacle's, Steve Cohen's as a hyphenated last name. They were sent out nightly with one purpose - to protect Aruba's tourism industry. Laughable. That is, unless you're Natalee's family.

jmo


Could you elaborate on the methodology used nightly by Jossy Mansur as he was sent out to protect Aruba's tourism industry? Who sent him out?

[HiLife]

Could you elaborate on the methodology used nightly by Jossy Mansur as he was sent out to protect Aruba's tourism industry? Who sent him out?

Anticipating this question (scary, huh?) I amended my post to read: Jossy's protecting his self-interest. :patriot:

jmo

[ortiga]

Anticipating this question (scary, huh?) I amended my post to read: Jossy's protecting his self-interest. :patriot:

jmo

Then feel free to elaborate on the methodology of Tito, Arlene, and Steve, as they were sent out nightly. For instance, please explain how Arlene's explanations about the differences in law between the 2 countries served an agenda? Steve Cohen made several quite serious accusatory statements about JK2, did you not approve of those?

I had the opposite impression, that the tabloid shows were soliciting their presence.

IMO

[HiLife]

Then feel free to elaborate on the methodology of Tito, Arlene, and Steve, as they were sent out nightly. For instance, please explain how Arlene's explanations about the differences in law between the 2 countries served an agenda?

I had the opposite impression, that the tabloid shows were soliciting their presence.

IMO

In that case, this may shock you: IMO, EVERYONE is usually out for their own self-interests. It's what makes the world go 'round (along with love sweet love). The library is filled with books regarding both these concepts.

We've been on this board long enough to know exactly what they did each night. There was a lot of blah, blah, blah, nightly with nothing to show for it. Talk is cheap.

jmo

eta - Answering your question about Arlene: Arlene's agenda was to go out and talk about LAW as to deflect from the tough questions about ALE and what was actually happening.

[ortiga]

In that case, this may shock you: IMO, EVERYONE is usually out for their own self-interests. It's what makes the world go 'round (along with love sweet love). The library is filled with books regarding both these concepts.

We've been on this board long enough to know exactly what they did each night. There was a lot of blah, blah, blah, nightly with nothing to show for it. Talk is cheap.

jmo

eta - Answering your question about Arlene: Arlene's agenda was to go out and talk about LAW as to deflect from the tough questions about ALE and what was actually happening.

If viewers had taken the time or used the mental power to try to understand her lessons on the differences in the legal systems then they would probably have understood why she was not able to answer tough questions about ALE and what was actually happening. That was the point.

IMO

[HiLife]

If viewers had taken the time or used the mental power to try to understand her lessons on the differences in the legal systems then they would probably have understood why she was not able to answer tough questions about ALE and what was actually happening. That was the point.

IMO

It is a simple case: Girl leaves with with J2K and is never seen again. J2K lie and lie and lie. It is not necessary to understand law, Aruban or any other. The posters here on CL are here because of their interest in criminal cases. Plenty of intelligence to go around here.

I think it unproductive to judge or underestimate "viewer's" "mental powers," or their "understanding" or all the other unhelpful words you are using in the past couple pages.

So I will take my leave for now. Later. :seeya:

jmo

[pnavas]

In that case, this may shock you: IMO, EVERYONE is usually out for their own self-interests. It's what makes the world go 'round (along with love sweet love). The library is filled with books regarding both these concepts.

We've been on this board long enough to know exactly what they did each night. There was a lot of blah, blah, blah, nightly with nothing to show for it. Talk is cheap.

jmo

eta - Answering your question about Arlene: Arlene's agenda was to go out and talk about LAW as to deflect from the tough questions about ALE and what was actually happening.

Self-interest makes the world go 'round. That's interesting and sad, even if we can find it in the library.

I was hoping you would give us the methodology used by those you accused
of having an agenda. You know, something somehow bordering on specific.

I believe Arlene spoke about the law becauae she was asked about the law.
Arlene could only speak the truth according to the law. I'm impressed that she stuck to the facts, even when our media wanted something more sensational. I suppose she could've spun a juicy tale of kidnap, rape, and murder....but wait, someone else thought of that first.

JMO

[pnavas]

It is a simple case: Girl leaves with with J2K and is never seen again. J2K lie and lie and lie. It is not necessary to understand law, Aruban or any other. The posters here on CL are here because of their interest in criminal cases. Plenty of intelligence to go around here.

I think it unproductive to judge or underestimate "viewer's" "mental powers," or their "understanding" or all the other unhelpful words you are using in the past couple pages.

So I will take my leave for now. Later. :seeya:

jmo

You just proved Ortiga's point.

JMO

[Heyes]

It is a simple case: Girl leaves with with J2K and is never seen again. J2K lie and lie and lie. It is not necessary to understand law, Aruban or any other. The posters here on CL are here because of their interest in criminal cases. Plenty of intelligence to go around here.

I think it unproductive to judge or underestimate "viewer's" "mental powers," or their "understanding" or all the other unhelpful words you are using in the past couple pages.

So I will take my leave for now. Later. :seeya:

jmo

This isn't a complicated case as some would have us believe. It is what it is.
Girl leaves with boys. boys return, girl doesn't. Boys lie about their alibi and change stories. girl missing. If they can't see the criminal nature of this scenario perhaps a word with their own ale will enlighten them. It wasn't an American that decided that they are suspects in the kidnap, rape and murder of a young American tourist. Nope that came from aruba and even more recently, the dutch. Perhaps they need a refresher course on how their system works.
In aruba an American has no right to hold suspects or retain their suspect status.
Attempting to make us believe that aruba law so complicated that it's difficult for us Americans to understand is insulting and as tree used to say "a load". Trust me we can figure out law when it's in black and white. It's when it changes with the wind that it gets a little difficult for us Americans to grasp.
Aruba will have to suffer the consiquences for years to come, arlene couldn't help them.

[No Nic]

This isn't a complicated case as some would have us believe. It is what it is.
Girl leaves with boys. boys return, girl doesn't. Boys lie about their alibi and change stories. girl missing. If they can't see the criminal nature of this scenario perhaps a word with their own ale will enlighten them. It wasn't an American that decided that they are suspects in the kidnap, rape and murder of a young American tourist. Nope that came from aruba and even more recently, the dutch. Perhaps they need a refresher course on how their system works.
In aruba an American has no right to hold suspects or retain their suspect status.
Attempting to make us believe that aruba law so complicated that it's difficult for us Americans to understand is insulting and as tree used to say "a load". Trust me we can figure out law when it's in black and white. It's when it changes with the wind that it gets a little difficult for us Americans to grasp. Aruba will have to suffer the consiquences for years to come, arlene couldn't help them.

That's it in a nutshell, Heyes.

imo

[ortiga]

This isn't a complicated case as some would have us believe. It is what it is.
Girl leaves with boys. boys return, girl doesn't. Boys lie about their alibi and change stories. girl missing. If they can't see the criminal nature of this scenario perhaps a word with their own ale will enlighten them. It wasn't an American that decided that they are suspects in the kidnap, rape and murder of a young American tourist. Nope that came from aruba and even more recently, the dutch. Perhaps they need a refresher course on how their system works.
In aruba an American has no right to hold suspects or retain their suspect status.
Attempting to make us believe that aruba law so complicated that it's difficult for us Americans to understand is insulting and as tree used to say "a load". Trust me we can figure out law when it's in black and white. It's when it changes with the wind that it gets a little difficult for us Americans to grasp.
Aruba will have to suffer the consiquences for years to come, arlene couldn't help them.


I know it is very complex, but it was a suspected possible crime, and that crime has not been proven to ever have occurred.

It is more than likely, IMO, that she took her own life by misjudging the strength of the currents in an early morning swim.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

I know it is very complex, but it was a suspected possible crime, and that crime has not been proven to ever have occurred.

It is more than likely, IMO, that she took her own life by misjudging the strength of the currents in an early morning swim.

IMO

It's far more convoluted to believe that ALE, KLPD and the FBI are all involved in a coverup and corruption. But it really seems to tickle some people's fancy.

imo

[ortiga]

It's far more convoluted to believe that ALE, KLPD and the FBI are all involved in a coverup and corruption. But it really seems to tickle some people's fancy.

imo

I think that if a guy had asked a girl for a ride after the bar closed, and if the guy had wanted to stay on the beach and the girl went on home after a makeout session, and the guy disappeared, ie possibly went swimming or ran into trouble by staying alone on the beach, there would be little discussion about the case.

It would be too bizarre to accuse the girl and the woman driver and another woman passenger of kidnapping, gang rape, and murder, without any proof. Much less do it repeatedly on international TV without benefit of indictment or trial.

Sounds funny, but that's what it is, IMO, a gory lurid story serving the purpose of retaining the impeccable reputation of a woman by judging young man (young men, that is, if not a whole island) without a trial.

IMO

[Heyes]

It's far more convoluted to believe that ALE, KLPD and the FBI are all involved in a coverup and corruption. But it really seems to tickle some people's fancy.

imo

Who said the fbi are part of the cover up?

The FBI had jorans number from the get go. aruba put the Twittys/Holloways through he** when they got the word that there was a body and one of the suspects had confessed. The AP had word from authorities and they were reporting it as well. Then all the sudden it was a "misinformation campaign"?
From who? Why? What lunatic decided to spread this story to the point the Associated press reported it and Dave Holloway was getting ready to recover the body of his daughter? This is a sick, sick thing to do. So either satan himself is on that island or there was a cover up because one of the suspects indeed confessed and they had to do something quick! IMO
No Body, No Case, how charming. Anita must be proud of her husband to come up with that one within hours of Natalee not returning to her hotel. IMO - pvds is completely involved with the removal of Natalee Holloway so his son could "go on with his life".

[No Nic]

Who said the fbi are part of the cover up?

The FBI had jorans number from the get go. aruba put the Twittys/Holloways through he** when they got the word that there was a body and one of the suspects had confessed. The AP had word from authorities and they were reporting it as well. Then all the sudden it was a "misinformation campaign"?
From who? Why? What lunatic decided to spread this story to the point the Associated press reported it and Dave Holloway was getting ready to recover the body of his daughter? This is a sick, sick thing to do. So either satan himself is on that island or there was a cover up because one of the suspects indeed confessed and they had to do something quick! IMO
No Body, No Case, how charming. Anita must be proud of her husband to come up with that one within hours of Natalee not returning to her hotel. IMO - pvds is completely involved with the removal of Natalee Holloway so his son could "go on with his life".

The epitome of black hearted evil, imo.

[Chocoholic]

Who said the fbi are part of the cover up?

The FBI had jorans number from the get go. aruba put the Twittys/Holloways through he** when they got the word that there was a body and one of the suspects had confessed. The AP had word from authorities and they were reporting it as well. Then all the sudden it was a "misinformation campaign"?
From who? Why? What lunatic decided to spread this story to the point the Associated press reported it and Dave Holloway was getting ready to recover the body of his daughter? This is a sick, sick thing to do. So either satan himself is on that island or there was a cover up because one of the suspects indeed confessed and they had to do something quick! IMO
No Body, No Case, how charming. Anita must be proud of her husband to come up with that one within hours of Natalee not returning to her hotel. IMO - pvds is completely involved with the removal of Natalee Holloway so his son could "go on with his life".

Since there is no "imo" in your post can you please provide proof with credible links please for the bolded parts.?

The lunatic would be bht. IM of course.

[Heyes]

I think that if a guy had asked a girl for a ride after the bar closed, and if the guy had wanted to stay on the beach and the girl went on home after a makeout session, and the guy disappeared, ie possibly went swimming or ran into trouble by staying alone on the beach, there would be little discussion about the case.

It would be too bizarre to accuse the girl and the woman driver and another woman passenger of kidnapping, gang rape, and murder, without any proof. Much less do it repeatedly on international TV without benefit of indictment or trial.

Sounds funny, but that's what it is, IMO, a gory lurid story serving the purpose of retaining the impeccable reputation of a woman by judging young man (young men, that is, if not a whole island) without a trial.

IMO

LMAO, yeah it would be "too bizarre" !
Good try though.
However, IMO what joran and the kapoes did is not that bizarre, it's just that "something bad happened this time". Yeah, like Natalee's death. Of course IMO if paulus made sure her body is not found then no body, no case. joran gets to pack his toys and go home and be a smoking, drinking. drug taking, destructive sporter once again. IMO And life goes on for the vandersloots. All is good, they're not missing anyone. joran goes to college, of course not in the U.S., but he gets to do all the things that Natalee will never be able to do. So why all the bitterness, your boy is free!

Maybe there is still worry? No? He is still the prime suspect.

[Heyes]

The epitome of black hearted evil, imo.



Yup, you got that right.

[ortiga]

Who said the fbi are part of the cover up?

The FBI had jorans number from the get go. aruba put the Twittys/Holloways through he** when they got the word that there was a body and one of the suspects had confessed. The AP had word from authorities and they were reporting it as well. Then all the sudden it was a "misinformation campaign"?
From who? Why? What lunatic decided to spread this story to the point the Associated press reported it and Dave Holloway was getting ready to recover the body of his daughter? This is a sick, sick thing to do. So either satan himself is on that island or there was a cover up because one of the suspects indeed confessed and they had to do something quick! IMO
No Body, No Case, how charming. Anita must be proud of her husband to come up with that one within hours of Natalee not returning to her hotel. IMO - pvds is completely involved with the removal of Natalee Holloway so his son could "go on with his life".


ETA When did the FBI say that they had Joran's number?

As far as what "lunatic" decided to put out a story that someone had confessed could be the same type of "lunatic" or maybe even "satan himself" that told the miners' families that the miners were alive, when in fact they were dead. Remember that, it was in the US, same day as Beth's notebook was featured on Greta. What would be worse, telling a family that their loved one is alive, and then saying, oops, sorry they are dead, or telling a family that their loved one was dead and then saying it was a mistake. I'd take #2, thanks.

You have stated before that Paulus said "no body no case" within hours after Natalee did not return to the hotel. Technically you are correct, as days are made up of hours, but if you mean within a few hours after Natalee failed to return to her hotel, in the early morning hours of May 30, I ask you for proof of that, given our counseling from the moderators recently.

IMO

[Luke Davis]

This isn't a complicated case as some would have us believe. It is what it is.
<edited for clarity>.It seems very complicated to me. Perhaps not complicated, maybe confusing.

Joran hangs with the MB crowd all week and plays cards with them. Then he kidnaps, drugs, gang rapes, murders and buries one of them.

Joran says he is an exchange student staying at the HI but Natalee wants to see his big house.

When Beth arrives, Natalee is packed and ready to go. Or her roomies packed her things, took her stuff to the airport. The chaperone took it back, put it in the room and left her passport there.

Beth while driving home (or to the airport), from her mom's or a spa, with or without friends, gets a call from a chaperone, her son or Jody Bearman. Beth calls 911 because she immediately knows Natalee is kidnapped. In over two years, no one plays the 911 tape! :patriot:

Beth looks at casino tape and sees Joran and Paulus but doesn't notice Natalee drinking a Red Fire.:confused:

Marcia Twitty handles the PR from Mountain Brook but never mentions her sons were on the trip. Carla is spokesperson for the family in Aruba but also works for the Aruba tourism group.

After two years, who is absolutely sure who the chaperones were? Has anyone seen the agreement signed by the participants? Does anyone know how many there were from MB that were not with the group? :cool:

I have to agree that Beth knows many things we don't know. She knows what was in Natalee's camera. But ALE, J2K, the other suspects, Aruban authorities all know things we don't know. :shrug:

And it is possible no one knows the answer.

In some ways this case is backwards to me. In stead of looking at the evidence, studying the crime and coming up with a suspect. Many of us have arrived at a theory and evaluate evidence to fit the theory. If our theory is J2K murdered Natalee, then anything bad said about Natalee and her family is bashing the victim. But if our theory is Natalee went off on her own, there is no victim and things look very different. People might not want Beth to find Natalee.:patriot:

I see it not so much as studying evidence but taking things on faith based on each posters theory. If one believes Joran murdered Natalee, it is convenient to believe everything bad about Joran. But being bad doesn't equal being guilty. And acting like Hitler doesn't mean Natalee hates you.

Maybe what it comes down to is it is simple. J2K are guilty. Or it is complicated, something else happened.http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/dunesdig.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/15_2_1v1.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/char054.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/anxious/3.gif

Is it all about lies?http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/lienose.gif

[Heyes]

Since there is no "imo" in your post can you please provide proof with credible links please for the bolded parts.?

The lunatic would be bht. IM of course.

Paul Reynolds:
The FBI had even intimated to my sister that they thought Natalee was probably not alive based on what the boys were saying. So we're confident they were saying something. We don't know exactly what it was.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/15/lkl.01.html

Your right I should have said that I agree with the FBI that they had jorans number form the get go.

[fairmaiden]

Anita asking the friend what he told police is proof of a coverup? That is a marvelous leap of logic that I am not willing to follow. What evidence did she coverup? What evidence did she destroy? The intention of asking questions, even inappropriate questions, is to uncover, to reveal, to shed light upon -- not to cover up.

As for the "no body, no case" statement. Big deal. That statement is not evidence of guilt, or evidence of a crime, or evidence of anything at all except a father who was applying his knowledge of the law to the situation at hand. Again, big deal.

JMO

I couldn't agree with you more, pnavas .... on BOTH points.

I have yet to hear a direct quote from PVDS regarding the "no body, no case". The only time I've seen those words is from someone else QUOTING PVDS.

JMO

[Heyes]

When did the FBI get word that there was a body and one of the suspects had confessed? I don't recall that the FBI ever published that datum.

As far as what "lunatic" decided to put out a story that someone had confessed could be the same type of "lunatic" or maybe even "satan himself" that told the miners' families that the miners were alive, when in fact they were dead. Remember that, it was in the US, same day as Beth's notebook was featured on Greta. What would be worse, telling a family that their loved one is alive, and then saying, oops, sorry they are dead, or telling a family that their loved one was dead and then saying it was a mistake. I'd take #2, thanks.

You have stated before that Paulus said "no body no case" within hours after Natalee did not return to the hotel. Technically you are correct, as days are made up of hours, but if you mean within a few hours after Natalee failed to return to her hotel, in the early morning hours of May 30, I ask you for proof of that, given our counseling from the moderators recently.

IMO

24 hours? 48 hours? 12 hours? who knows, different reports, but it was such a wierd comment to make it ended up getting his tush thrown in the slammer.
imo
To me and I'm sure others it's a comment only a guilty person who thinks they will get away with murder would make. No matter how you spin it...
if your kid was missing and a day or so later one of the suspects is found to of said "no body, no case". Would you appreciate that comment?
Now tell the truth, looks pretty bad doesn't it, you'd be hard pressed finding a way to put in in context without it looking sinister.
IMOIMOIMOIMO
Nope looks like he's involved in Natalee's disappearance to me. IMO He was protecting his son. He went way too far, but he has a reputation to maintain. I also believe it is paulus in the picture in the casino. The hairline, shirt, slouch, arms,watch all look to me like paulus van der sloot. We haven't heard proof either way. But it sure looks just like him. And we know he was gambling with his underage son sooooooo....... great fatherly trait by the way, lol cough lol imo

[fairmaiden]

Excellent logic, NN! Paulus seemed to be jumping the gun there about the dead body scenario. Too bad Paulus decided to act as an enabling father and a lawyer for his son, instead of "applying his knowledge" in searching for the truth from his son.

jmo

How can you possibly know he WASN'T searching for the truth from his son ?? "Enabling"?? "Reassuring" perhaps ??

JMO

[HiLife]

I couldn't agree with you more, pnavas .... on BOTH points.

I have yet to hear a direct quote from PVDS regarding the "no body, no case". The only time I've seen those words is from someone else QUOTING PVDS.

JMO

Does Joran saying it/confirming it in the secretly recorded car conversation to Deepak count?

jmo

[ortiga]

BRAVO! <APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE> You nailed it!


I MISS TREE!!! :patriot:

jmo


Since you quoted Heyes, when Heyes said "Attempting to make us believe that aruba law so complicated that it's difficult for us Americans to understand is insulting"

I do wonder if you and Heyes realize that no one is saying that Aruba law is so complicated for us Americans to understand.

Actually I, at least, am saying that it seems difficult for some to understand that it is complicated.

Big difference.

IMO

[HiLife]

This isn't a complicated case as some would have us believe. It is what it is.

Girl leaves with boys. boys return, girl doesn't. Boys lie about their alibi and change stories. girl missing. If they can't see the criminal nature of this scenario perhaps a word with their own ale will enlighten them. It wasn't an American that decided that they are suspects in the kidnap, rape and murder of a young American tourist. Nope that came from aruba and even more recently, the dutch. Perhaps they need a refresher course on how their system works.

In aruba an American has no right to hold suspects or retain their suspect status.

Attempting to make us believe that aruba law so complicated that it's difficult for us Americans to understand is insulting and as tree used to say "a load".

Trust me we can figure out law when it's in black and white. It's when it changes with the wind that it gets a little difficult for us Americans to grasp.

Aruba will have to suffer the consiquences for years to come, arlene couldn't help them.

BRAVO! <APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE> You nailed it!


I MISS TREE!!! :patriot:

jmo

[Luke Davis]

<snip>
if your kid was missing and a day or so later one of the suspects is found to of said "no body, no case". Would you appreciate that comment?
<snip>imoI would rather hear the truth than what the talking heads were saying about how easy it would be to prosecute without a body. I think it was said on every show. Later we would find out it has NEVER been done in Aruba.

When a person goes missing, FBI statistics show they are murdered within the first two hours. Would you want the FBI to hide that from Beth?

[No Nic]

I couldn't agree with you more, pnavas .... on BOTH points.

I have yet to hear a direct quote from PVDS regarding the "no body, no case". The only time I've seen those words is from someone else QUOTING PVDS.

JMO

Welllllllllllllll..............he's never denied it, soooooooooo it must be true. (this *logic* is used with Beth, what's good for the goose........).

Oh, by the way, Joran, Deepak and Satish all ADMITTED Paulus said this....the supersecret polis car tapes, remember?

Paulus hasn't denied it.
Anita hasn't denied it.
Joran hasn't denied it.
Deepak hasn't denied it.
Dompig hasn't denied it.
Karin Jannsen hasn't denied it.
Arlene Shipper hasn't denied it.
Rudy Croes hasn't denied it.
AHATA hasn't denied it.
NO ONE has denied it. (except for some message board posters).

Paulus SAID it and as Luke says "He was right".

imo

[fairmaiden]

It is a simple case: Girl leaves with with J2K and is never seen again. J2K lie and lie and lie. It is not necessary to understand law, Aruban or any other. The posters here on CL are here because of their interest in criminal cases. Plenty of intelligence to go around here.

I think it unproductive to judge or underestimate "viewer's" "mental powers," or their "understanding" or all the other unhelpful words you are using in the past couple pages.

So I will take my leave for now. Later. :seeya:

jmo

Truthfully, HiLife .... I don't see anything "simple" about any of this, since there doesn't seem to be any evidence of heinous crimes. Are you saying, the premise that "J2K lie and lie and lie" is enough proof that there WERE heinous crimes committed .... by them ??

I don't mind admitting .... this case is a mystery to me, and I consider myself to be of average intelligence. It's NOT simple to me .... far from it.

JMO

[Heyes]

Thank you. Thank you very much. ***using my very best Elvis voice***
I miss tree too!
:beer: One for the tree!
I know I get tired of the, this is such a complicated case here in aruba that it's very difficult for the Americans to understand our laws and system.
I find it terribly insulting and arrogant. but that's just me.
This case is not complicated, I agree with Luke, confusing, but not complicated.
People are people,
crimes are crimes
hiding evidence happens everywhere, all the time.IMO
From the beginning and up to now the only thing that fits all the pieces and makes any sense to me is that the ale, FBI and the Dutch, and Beth, jug, Dave, numerous talking heads, lawyers, ex judges, ex police investigators. etc.. are right. Joran and the kalpoes and more than likely paulus are the ones that are responsible for Natalee's disappearance. I remember dompig saying somethng about complaints to him about tunnel-vision and he said something along the lines of no matter which direction we look, it all points back to j2k. I don't know who did what but when I see joran interviewed, he just comes off ....different...scary. too self assured, cocky, arrogant, cold. He would be the guy most likely to play a game on Natalee and have it go wrong. IMO
His fathers statement, "no body no case" screams, IMO, that he's the one who made sure of it, make sure Natalee would not be found. IMO Anita is overdramatic, I feel she's trying too hard to convince us and now we are aware of the other side of joran. Either she was trying to keep that part of jorans life ( the stories of his tendency to violence), under wraps and is a liar or joran has made his mother a fool. IMO She IIRC had to go on tv what two three times and say, well yes he lied, but I still believe him. How humiliating! imo

[Heyes]

I would rather hear the truth than what the talking heads were saying about how easy it would be to prosecute without a body. I think it was said on every show. Later we would find out it has NEVER been done in Aruba.

When a person goes missing, FBI statistics show they are murdered within the first two hours. Would you want the FBI to hide that from Beth?

So as the parent of a missing child you would rather hear from the main suspects father that he held a little pow wow with the 3 suspects and "informed them that when there is no body there is no case. :eek: Instead of a few talking heads trying to figure out the law on tv?
Um Luke, tv is for the most part is pretend,
Beth was living this....
When did I say I wanted the FBI to hide anything from Beth?

[Luke Davis]

<snip>



Paulus SAID it and as Luke says "He was right".

imoDoes anyone doubt Paulus is correct? If so, show me a case in Aruba with no body, please.

[Luke Davis]

Thank you. Thank you very much. ***using my very best Elvis voice***
I miss tree too!
:beer: One for the tree!
I know I get tired of the, this is such a complicated case here in aruba that it's very difficult for the Americans to understand our laws and system.
I find it terribly insulting and arrogant. but that's just me.
This case is not complicated, I agree with Luke, confusing, but not complicated.
People are people,
crimes are crimes
hiding evidence happens everywhere, all the time.IMO
From the beginning and up to now the only thing that fits all the pieces and makes any sense to me is that the ale, FBI and the Dutch, and Beth, jug, Dave, numerous talking heads, lawyers, ex judges, ex police investigators. etc.. are right. Joran and the kalpoes and more than likely paulus are the ones that are responsible for Natalee's disappearance. I remember dompig saying somethng about complaints to him about tunnel-vision and he said something along the lines of no matter which direction we look, it all points back to j2k. I don't know who did what but when I see joran interviewed, he just comes off ....different...scary. too self assured, cocky, arrogant, cold. He would be the guy most likely to play a game on Natalee and have it go wrong. IMO
His fathers statement, "no body no case" screams, IMO, that he's the one who made sure of it, make sure Natalee would not be found. IMO Anita is overdramatic, I feel she's trying too hard to convince us and now we are aware of the other side of joran. Either she was trying to keep that part of jorans life ( the stories of his tendency to violence), under wraps and is a liar or joran has made his mother a fool. IMO She IIRC had to go on tv what two three times and say, well yes he lied, but I still believe him. How humiliating! imo

Just one problem. No body.

[Luke Davis]

So as the parent of a missing child you would rather hear from the main suspects father that he held a little pow wow with the 3 suspects and "informed them that when there is no body there is no case. :eek: Instead of a few talking heads trying to figure out the law on tv?
Um Luke, tv is for the most part is pretend,
Beth was living this....
When did I say I wanted the FBI to hide anything from Beth?

The FBI indicated Natalee could be dead. It sounded to me like you did not want FBI to tell the family that.

Any parent would want to hear the truth. As far as I know, Paulus told the truth.

[No Nic]

We have heard much outrage about "making money off Natalee", outrage at her mother, even though the merchandise is NOT being offered nor sold by her mother. Joran initially LIED (surprise surprise) about being responsible for this photoshopped picture. Here he recounts his intent for the picture. I would like to hear the excuses for this vile act.

page 323 in Chapter 22 on 'Peter R. de Vries'.

Then there is the manipulated photo of me and Natalee. De Vries shows that there's a photo of Natalee together with a girlfriend at her home, which has been photoshopped into a photo of her and me. I asked to produce this fake photo to get back on the National Enquirer. However the quality was too poor to be able to sell it. It was residing on my computer. One way or the other, De Vries had gotten hold of it and was waving with it at my front door. He demanded an explanation.
http://www.scrux.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=631&sid=de06619c06524ee6adbad682f43777df

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/fun-images/Natalee_Faux_JVDS.bmp

Lovely picture of Natalee, ruined by putting that mug in it, imo.

[Heyes]

We have heard much outrage about "making money off Natalee", outrage at her mother, even though the merchandise is NOT being offered nor sold by her mother. Joran initially LIED (surprise surprise) about being responsible for this photoshopped picture. Here he recounts his intent for the picture. I would like to hear the excuses for this vile act.

page 323 in Chapter 22 on 'Peter R. de Vries'.


http://www.scrux.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=631&sid=de06619c06524ee6adbad682f43777df

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/fun-images/Natalee_Faux_JVDS.bmp

Lovely picture of Natalee, ruined by putting that mug in it, imo.

OMG! How have I missed this little snippet of more sick joran behavior.
Sheeesh the guy needs help!
There's gonna be another victim if they don't do something with him soon. imo

[pnavas]

OMG! How have I missed this little snippet of more sick joran behavior.
Sheeesh the guy needs help!
There's gonna be another victim if they don't do something with him soon. imo

So...now photoshopping is an early warning sign of sociopathic behavior.

I wonder what is in Natalee's cup?

JMO

[Chocoholic]

OMG! How have I missed this little snippet of more sick joran behavior.
Sheeesh the guy needs help!
There's gonna be another victim if they don't do something with him soon. imo

If you think this is sick would you also condemn the photoshopped picture of the Kalpoe's body being hung?

I very much doubt it, and that is a whole lot sicker considering there is no evidence of a crime. imo

[Chocoholic]

So...now photoshopping is an early warning sign of sociopathic behavior.

I wonder what is in Natalee's cup?

JMO

Koolaid, definitely Koolaid.

[HiLife]

OMG! How have I missed this little snippet of more sick joran behavior.
Sheeesh the guy needs help!
There's gonna be another victim if they don't do something with him soon. imo

I completely agree. Who could be so cruel? The poor Holloway/Twittys :( Can you imagine the suspect accused of disappearing your daughter mocking your daughter in this despicable way?? Low, low, low.

IMO

[SukiJane]

Yes, sometimes it is difficult for professionals, both foreigners and from the US, to reduce complex ideas to the sound bites required by the tabloid shows. I guess that's why, 2 years later, so many Americans that follow this case seem to be oblivious to the differences in law between Aruba and the US.

IMO

Apparently Anita is oblivious to the difference between Aruban law, and American law when she said this...

"My husband is a man of integrity who has been working in the justice system 15 years and was taken without evidence," she said, describing him as "the most honest, beautiful man."

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050624/suspect.shtm

Anita questioning the arrest of her husband without evidence...wow! Does Aruba need evidence, or just reasonable suspicion...so what evidence did they have to arrest her son...hmmmmm, interesting.

Her son is a sweet boy, a sporter, and her husband is a honest, beautiful man.

jmo

[pnavas]

Koolaid, definitely Koolaid.

Koolaid without a doubt. After all, no one under the age of 18 in the state of Alabama is allowed to purchase, consume, posses, or transport alcohol. I wonder how old Natalee and her friends are in these pictures:


Seems like a lot of "consuming" goin' on.

JMO

[No Nic]

I completely agree. Who could be so cruel? The poor Holloway/Twittys :( Can you imagine the suspect accused of disappearing your daughter mocking your daughter in this despicable way?? Low, low, low.

IMO

Can you believe the silence on this subject? It is deafening!! IMO, it deserves a discussion.

Is Anita proud of her "sporter" doing this? Do her and Paulus support this behavior? Ooops, seems they have supported even worse than this, IMO.

[No Nic]

Apparently Anita is oblivious to the difference between Aruban law, and American law when she said this...

"My husband is a man of integrity who has been working in the justice system 15 years and was taken without evidence," she said, describing him as "the most honest, beautiful man."

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050624/suspect.shtm

Anita questioning the arrest of her husband without evidence...wow! Does Aruba need evidence, or just reasonable suspicion...so what evidence did they have to arrest her son...hmmmmm, interesting.

Her son is a sweet boy, a sporter, and her husband is a honest, beautiful man.

jmo

That made me throw up a little. :D

[SukiJane]

I completely agree. Who could be so cruel? The poor Holloway/Twittys :( Can you imagine the suspect accused of disappearing your daughter mocking your daughter in this despicable way?? Low, low, low.

IMO

I remember when this was first mentioned on this board, even I thought that Joran photoshopping a picture with him and Natalee was a rumor. Then he goes on to brag about this in his book? Lord have mercy, this kid is one strange individual.

What's interesting some try to rationalize his behavior as being normal. This photoshopping a picture sounds like something a serial killer would do...it's just spooky. This kid ain't normal, in my opinion.

jmo

[pnavas]

Can you believe the silence on this subject? It is deafening!! IMO, it deserves a discussion.

Is Anita proud of her "sporter" doing this? Do her and Paulus support this behavior? Ooops, seems they have supported even worse than this, IMO.

Personally, I am semi-silent because I cannot rise to your level of outrage over a photoshopped picture. IMO, it's another of those irrelevant bits of information that are desperately latched on to with the hope of reviving the frenzy surrounding a non-crime. The picture isn't evidence of anything, except maybe that Natalee was very thin, was wearing a cute top, and was almost ready for a refill.
JMO.

[Chocoholic]

Koolaid without a doubt. After all, no one under the age of 18 in the state of Alabama is allowed to purchase, consume, posses, or transport alcohol. I wonder how old Natalee and her friends are in these pictures:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=4y5qqtw

Seems like a lot of "consuming" goin' on.

JMO

Actually it's under the age of 21. Considering some of the MB youths were 17 they broke both the law in Aruba and apparently do so with parental consent in the US.

No wonder bht felt she had to clear the name of her daughter the second she set foot on Aruba. bht herself might have been implicated charged in assisting getting her daughter and her friends drunk.

imo

[HiLife]

I remember when this was first mentioned on this board, even I thought that Joran photoshopping a picture with him and Natalee was a rumor. Then he goes on to brag about this in his book? Lord have mercy, this kid is one strange individual.

What's interesting some try to rationalize his behavior as being normal. This photoshopping a picture sounds like something a serial killer would do...it's just spooky. This kid ain't normal, in my opinion.

jmo

Exactly, Suki, I thought it was a rumor, too! Lo and behold. It really is a creepy thing to do when Joran is suspected of harming the girl he is photoshopping and then trying to PROFIT. Still shaking my head.

This is abnormal behavior, imo. Creepy at best and psychopathic at worst, imo. No excusing this despicable act.

imo

[Chocoholic]

Exactly, Suki, I thought it was a rumor, too! Lo and behold. It really is a creepy thing to do when Joran is suspected of harming the girl he is photoshopping and then trying to PROFIT. Still shaking my head.

This is abnormal behavior, imo. Creepy at best and psychopathic at worst, imo. No excusing this despicable act.

imo

So why would the mother of a missing woman lie about the circumstances of said disappearance, the character of the woman and about the investigation? Top that with some slander, throw in some lovebowls, take away a lifeinsurance policy and heap it on with the demand of a death certificate on day 10 of the investigation.

That to me is psychotic and despicable.

imo

[pnavas]

Actually it's under the age of 21. Considering some of the MB youths were 17 they broke both the law in Aruba and apparently do so with parental consent in the US.

No wonder bht felt she had to clear the name of her daughter the second she set foot on Aruba. bht herself might have been implicated charged in assisting getting her daughter and her friends drunk.

imo

I could only DREAM about such a well-stocked party when I was 17.:beer:

[HiLife]

Apparently Anita is oblivious to the difference between Aruban law, and American law when she said this...

"My husband is a man of integrity who has been working in the justice system 15 years and was taken without evidence," she said, describing him as "the most honest, beautiful man."

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050624/suspect.shtml

Anita questioning the arrest of her husband without evidence...wow! Does Aruba need evidence, or just reasonable suspicion...so what evidence did they have to arrest her son...hmmmmm, interesting.

Her son is a sweet boy, a sporter, and her husband is a honest, beautiful man.

jmo

Poor, poor Anita. Denial must be a wonderful little town in which to reside. I wonder how many lies later, that she still believed what he said? lol! And how touching her faith in her husband. The US media is to blame. :rolleyes:

=====================
The teen's mother, meanwhile, told The Associated Press that her son had changed his story, admitting to her that he was alone with 18-year-old Natalee Holloway on a beach the night she vanished — and that he left her there, not at a Holiday Inn as he earlier stated. But Joran van der Sloot, 17, insisted that he did not hurt her, Anita van der Sloot said.


"How can this happen? This is not about Natalee anymore. It's about enormous pressure from the (United) States and the media," she said.


jmo

[pnavas]

Poor, poor Anita. Denial must be a wonderful little town in which to reside. I wonder how many lies later, that she still believed what he said? lol! And how touching her faith in her husband. The US media is to blame. :rolleyes:

=====================
The teen's mother, meanwhile, told The Associated Press that her son had changed his story, admitting to her that he was alone with 18-year-old Natalee Holloway on a beach the night she vanished — and that he left her there, not at a Holiday Inn as he earlier stated. But Joran van der Sloot, 17, insisted that he did not hurt her, Anita van der Sloot said.


"How can this happen? This is not about Natalee anymore. It's about enormous pressure from the (United) States and the media," she said.


jmo

Time has proven Anita to be absolutely correct.

Anita's faith in her husband is lovely. I wonder how long they have been married? Hopefully BHT will find that sort of thing with the husband or boyfriend du jour.

JMO

[HiLife]

Time has proven Anita to be absolutely correct.

Anita's faith in her husband is lovely. I wonder how long they have been married? Hopefully BHT will find that sort of thing with the husband or boyfriend du jour.

JMO

I don't know how long they've been married....do we count from when they began living together or do we start counting from when they married for the visa, as Joran explained in his book? Truly romantic.

jmo

[No Nic]

I don't know how long they've been married....do we count from when they began living together or do we start counting from when they married for the visa, as Joran explained in his book? Truly romantic.

jmo

Um...how old is Joran now ? 18 ? If so, Paulus and Anita have been married for less than 18 years, about 16, IIRC.

imo

[pnavas]

Um...how old is Joran now ? 18 ? If so, Paulus and Anita have been married for less than 18 years, about 16, IIRC.

imo

So Joran is officially a "love child". Sweet.

JMO

[No Nic]

So Joran is officially a "love child". Sweet.

JMO

Is that what they are called in Dutch? :shrug: Sweet.

imo

[Chocoholic]

So Joran is officially a "love child". Sweet.

JMO

Almost as sweet as bht having a romance out of wedlock with jug.

imo

[HiLife]

So Joran is officially a "love child". Sweet.

JMO

Sweet? I believe one of the official words would be "out of wedlock."

jmo

[No Nic]

Sweet? I believe one of the official words would be "out of wedlock."

jmo


It's that touch of "class", I do believe. :D

imo

[Chocoholic]

Sweet? I believe one of the official words would be "out of wedlock."

jmo

I don't see a problem with people having sex outside of marriage. It's been discussed on this board before. It would leave many of us with very short pregnancies and as many "premies". It's been a problem throughout the ages, to pretend it doesn't happen is as foolish as putting blinders on.

However, if those parents aren't committed to each other and find divorce the easy answer to life's issues, it's an entirely different matter. Often the children are used as pawns (think of Natalee having to beg and borrow for her father's ticket to her own graduation and Matt having to call his father to advise him of his sister's disappearance) bht musta been too darned busy getting the lovebowls filled.

To me it appears clear that Anita and Paul are a couple who love each other and care for their children with all their flaws.

The best bht can do is cover up her daughter's flaws and illegal behavior and blame others for her disappearance.

imo

[pnavas]

Sweet? I believe one of the official words would be "out of wedlock."

jmo



Wait, I can feel it coming.....Joran's "out of wedlock" status is yet another indicator of future violent tendencies.


JMO

[HiLife]

Wait, I can feel it coming.....Joran's "out of wedlock" status is yet another indicator of future violent tendencies.


JMO

If you say so.....:shrug:

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Wait, I can feel it coming.....Joran's "out of wedlock" status is yet another indicator of future violent tendencies.


JMO

Congratulations, you learnded quick-like! For the assistance of some you might wish to indicate you are being sarcastic though. :biggrin:

[pnavas]

I don't see a problem with people having sex outside of marriage. It's been discussed on this board before. It would leave many of us with very short pregnancies and as many "premies". It's been a problem throughout the ages, to pretend it doesn't happen is as foolish as putting blinders on.

However, if those parents aren't committed to each other and find divorce the easy answer to life's issues, it's an entirely different matter. Often the children are used as pawns (think of Natalee having to beg and borrow for her father's ticket to her own graduation and Matt having to call his father to advise him of his sister's disappearance) bht musta been too darned busy getting the lovebowls filled.

To me it appears clear that Anita and Paul are a couple who love each other and care for their children with all their flaws.

The best bht can do is cover up her daughter's flaws and illegal behavior and blame others for her disappearance.

imo

I agree.

When I give it the old "At whose home would I rather be a guest for dinner" test, the VDS's win every time. They seem like a warm, funny, and interesting family. I bet dinner at their house would be really enjoyable.
Dinner with Beth and....ahem...John Ramsay? Not so much.


JMO

[Chocoholic]

I agree.

When I give it the old "At whose home would I rather be a guest for dinner" test, the VDS's win every time. They seem like a warm, funny, and interesting family. I bet dinner at their house would be really enjoyable.
Dinner with Beth and....ahem...John Ramsay? Not so much.


JMO

Oh heck, bht could keep us all wondering who the new "beau" will be. When is Joe Mammana getting out of jail?

Yeah, it didn't give anybody (I think) that comfy feeling when it was announced that Natalee was allowed to stay at her stepfather's house. Didn't really have that gosh, welcoming touch did it?

imo

[ortiga]

I agree.

When I give it the old "At whose home would I rather be a guest for dinner" test, the VDS's win every time. They seem like a warm, funny, and interesting family. I bet dinner at their house would be really enjoyable.
Dinner with Beth and....ahem...John Ramsay? Not so much.


JMO

Update on the Nashville Speakers Bureau write up on Beth....Jug has disappeared!!! All she ever did marriage-wise is raise 2 children after marrying her college sweetheart. That is so touching.

"She was born and raised in Pine Bluff, Arkansas where her family still resides. After marrying her college sweetheart, she raised two children in Jackson, Mississippi. Beth taught Sunday school and Children’s Church in her hometown Methodist church for many years.

Earning her Bachelor’s of Science in Speech Pathology with a minor in Special Education from the University of Arkansas in Little Rock, Beth went on to get her Masters in Speech Pathology at Arkansas State University in Jonesboro. Professionally trained as a speech and language pathologist, Beth has taught special needs children in public schools in Mississippi, Arkansas, and now Birmingham, Alabama for 22 years. She is a member of the Speech and Hearing Association of Alabama.

Beth moved her daughter Natalee and son Matt to Mountain Brook, Alabama six years ago. She provides therapy and special diagnostics in the Special Opportunities Preschool Program in Mountain Brook City Schools.

By her own account Beth has lived a quiet, somewhat uneventful life. That all changed quite dramatically last summer when Natalee disappeared."
----
"Her message is powerful, informative and heart- wrencing [sic]"

"Her lectures [sic] is eye-opening, as none of us ever realize the dangers and lack of coopernation [sic] that we may encounter as we travel, especially......internationally."
-------------------------


IMO

http://www.nashspeakers.com/cgi-bin/speakers/display.pl?speaker=1005

[No Nic]

Seems the VDSs agree with a lot of us.

Joran's book, P222

Joran: "Afterwards back to the KIA. I lie down on my bed and wonder about how corrupt the legal system is at Aruba. Also my parents seem to have lost their trust in the constitutional state."

http://www.scrux.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=650&sid=b514eea5e3c06ed1754f96934feb16d4

imo

[HiLife]

Seems the VDSs agree with a lot of us.

Joran's book, P222


Quote:
Joran: "Afterwards back to the KIA. I lie down on my bed and wonder about how corrupt the legal system is at Aruba. Also my parents seem to have lost their trust in the constitutional state."

http://www.scrux.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=650&sid=b514eea5e3c06ed1754f96934feb16d4

imo

Interesting. And odd. Seeing how daddy VDS was a part of this "corrupt Aruban legal system," per Joran, what does that say about Paulus? lol!!!

jmo

[pnavas]

Update on the Nashville Speakers Bureau write up on Beth....Jug has disappeared!!! All she ever did marriage-wise is raise 2 children after marrying her college sweetheart. That is so touching.

"She was born and raised in Pine Bluff, Arkansas where her family still resides. After marrying her college sweetheart, she raised two children in Jackson, Mississippi. Beth taught Sunday school and Children’s Church in her hometown Methodist church for many years.

Earning her Bachelor’s of Science in Speech Pathology with a minor in Special Education from the University of Arkansas in Little Rock, Beth went on to get her Masters in Speech Pathology at Arkansas State University in Jonesboro. Professionally trained as a speech and language pathologist, Beth has taught special needs children in public schools in Mississippi, Arkansas, and now Birmingham, Alabama for 22 years. She is a member of the Speech and Hearing Association of Alabama.

Beth moved her daughter Natalee and son Matt to Mountain Brook, Alabama six years ago. She provides therapy and special diagnostics in the Special Opportunities Preschool Program in Mountain Brook City Schools.

By her own account Beth has lived a quiet, somewhat uneventful life. That all changed quite dramatically last summer when Natalee disappeared."
----
"Her message is powerful, informative and heart- wrencing [sic]"

"Her lectures [sic] is eye-opening, as none of us ever realize the dangers and lack of coopernation [sic] that we may encounter as we travel, especially......internationally."
-------------------------


IMO

http://www.nashspeakers.com/cgi-bin/speakers/display.pl?speaker=1005

Jug is probably breathing a huge sigh of relief. I can't imagine he would want to be tied to this book in any possible way.

If Beth were to mention Jug, she may have to explain how their relationship began, and that could be tricky. Her image might be tarnished just a bit.

We know the word "kidnapping" on the cover of the book was a real stretch of the truth, a total fabrication actually. Now we know that Jug has been eliminated from the book. It's unfortunate that anyone could still believe that this book is honest account of her life, or of anything at all.

JMO

[HiLife]

<snipped>

If Beth were to mention Jug, she may have to explain how their relationship began, and that could be tricky. Her image might be tarnished just a bit.

<snipped>

JMO

This is the second time this is mentioned on this thread. I believe this to be a scurrilous insinuation, but stand to be corrected.

Please share with us "how their relationship began." And please make sure you are careful to provide a link or statement as proof. TIA.

jmo

[pnavas]

Interesting. And odd. Seeing how daddy VDS was a part of this "corrupt Aruban legal system," per Joran, what does that say about Paulus? lol!!!

jmo

What's really interesting and really odd is how those with an anti-j2k POV believe Joran's statements to be true whenever those statements support their theories.


JMO

[ortiga]

Jug is probably breathing a huge sigh of relief. I can't imagine he would want to be tied to this book in any possible way.

If Beth were to mention Jug, she may have to explain how their relationship began, and that could be tricky. Her image might be tarnished just a bit.

We know the word "kidnapping" on the cover of the book was a real stretch of the truth, a total fabrication actually. Now we know that Jug has been eliminated from the book. It's unfortunate that anyone could still believe that this book is honest account of her life, or of anything at all.

JMO

That was off her bio sheet on the Nashville Speakers' Bureau on internet, I haven't seen the new book yet, I think it's coming out in October, the one that has the truth about the "kidnapping", so I don't know if Jug will be in the book or if she will just say she married her college sweetheart and then took the 2 kids to Alabama.

Actually, who knows what she will say, the sky is not the limit.

IMO

[ortiga]

What's really interesting and really odd is how those with an anti-j2k POV believe Joran's statements to be true whenever those statements support their theories.


JMO

I am wondering if it is now OK to put all parts of Joran's book here, despite that it was translated by who knows who.

There are many parts here that shed light on the behavior of the teens after they left the bar, quite personal details about what happened, and other parts that claim some conversation between Croes and Beth, which was very personal.

It would seem that if it is OK here on this board to pick out Joran's translated text as being the truth, then the whole book should be seen as the truth.

I don't have time right now, but if the moderator says it is OK to quote from this translation of Joran's book, that is OK for posters to pick things out of context to try to make Joran look bad, then I would ask the moderator if it is OK to pick out the things he says that are not flattering to other players.

Riviera??? OK to quote from the translation of Joran's book as published on Scrux.com? As No Nic and others are doing?

Always good to get an OK or not OK.

[pnavas]

This is the second time this is mentioned on this thread. I believe this to be a scurrilous insinuation, but stand to be corrected.

Please share with us "how their relationship began." And please make sure you are careful to provide a link or statement as proof. TIA.

jmo

I purposely left that statement vague so the readers of the post could interpret it in any way they choose. Since you chose to interpret it as "scurrilous", then the onus is on you to prove that the insinuation is scurrilous, not me. Why does the mere mention of the beginnings of the Beth & Jug relationship cause such discomfort? Do you know something we don't?

It might be tricky, and IMO tarnish Beth's image to have to describe a relationship with a husband who has been omitted from the book. How do you do that?

For all I know, Beth and Jug met in a field of flowers while riding unicorns.

JMO

[ortiga]

I could only DREAM about such a well-stocked party when I was 17.:beer:

I can only guffaw at what my parents would have said, and the look they would have had on their faces, if I had wanted to go on an all inclusive alcohol party for 5 days and 4 nights in a foreign country, without chaperones, only with passport holders, for my graduation party. And, then another hardy har har for thinking of them paying for any part of it.

Too bad Mom and Dad aren't here anymore to laugh about that one with me.

:(

[ortiga]

I completely agree. Who could be so cruel? The poor Holloway/Twittys :( Can you imagine the suspect accused of disappearing your daughter mocking your daughter in this despicable way?? Low, low, low.

IMO


Let's make a choice......which is REALLY despicable...

1) a kid photoshops a picture of himself fully clothed next to the disappeared woman who is also fully clothed, someone allegedly steals it off his computer and publishes it around the internet.

2) a grown woman in her 40's goes on TV in the US and Holland and calls foreign teenagers gang rapists, kidnappers, and said they took her daughters life, all without any indictment, any trial, and without the remotest proof.

IMO

[ortiga]

It seems very complicated to me. Perhaps not complicated, maybe confusing.

Joran hangs with the MB crowd all week and plays cards with them. Then he kidnaps, drugs, gang rapes, murders and buries one of them.

Joran says he is an exchange student staying at the HI but Natalee wants to see his big house.

When Beth arrives, Natalee is packed and ready to go. Or her roomies packed her things, took her stuff to the airport. The chaperone took it back, put it in the room and left her passport there.

Beth while driving home (or to the airport), from her mom's or a spa, with or without friends, gets a call from a chaperone, her son or Jody Bearman. Beth calls 911 because she immediately knows Natalee is kidnapped. In over two years, no one plays the 911 tape! :patriot:

Beth looks at casino tape and sees Joran and Paulus but doesn't notice Natalee drinking a Red Fire.:confused:

Marcia Twitty handles the PR from Mountain Brook but never mentions her sons were on the trip. Carla is spokesperson for the family in Aruba but also works for the Aruba tourism group.

After two years, who is absolutely sure who the chaperones were? Has anyone seen the agreement signed by the participants? Does anyone know how many there were from MB that were not with the group? :cool:

I have to agree that Beth knows many things we don't know. She knows what was in Natalee's camera. But ALE, J2K, the other suspects, Aruban authorities all know things we don't know. :shrug:

And it is possible no one knows the answer.

In some ways this case is backwards to me. In stead of looking at the evidence, studying the crime and coming up with a suspect. Many of us have arrived at a theory and evaluate evidence to fit the theory. If our theory is J2K murdered Natalee, then anything bad said about Natalee and her family is bashing the victim. But if our theory is Natalee went off on her own, there is no victim and things look very different. People might not want Beth to find Natalee.:patriot:

I see it not so much as studying evidence but taking things on faith based on each posters theory. If one believes Joran murdered Natalee, it is convenient to believe everything bad about Joran. But being bad doesn't equal being guilty. And acting like Hitler doesn't mean Natalee hates you.

Maybe what it comes down to is it is simple. J2K are guilty. Or it is complicated, something else happened.http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/dunesdig.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/15_2_1v1.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/char054.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/anxious/3.gif

Is it all about lies?http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/lienose.gif

So true, so complicated when there are so many contradictions and people like Beth purposely obfuscating the facts. IMO.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/obfuscating

PS I love that little smiley with the shovel!!

[ortiga]

This is the second time this is mentioned on this thread. I believe this to be a scurrilous insinuation, but stand to be corrected.

Please share with us "how their relationship began." And please make sure you are careful to provide a link or statement as proof. TIA.

jmo

She doesn't even MENTION Jug in the Nashville Speakers' Bureau listing I just linked to.

Do you think that is honest? To mention only one of her marriages and not to mention the other marriage or either of the 2 divorces?

I don't think it is honest at all, expecially when one is trying to get business bookings for inspirational speaking (ie $$) based on that bio.

IMO

[ortiga]

I remember when this was first mentioned on this board, even I thought that Joran photoshopping a picture with him and Natalee was a rumor. Then he goes on to brag about this in his book? Lord have mercy, this kid is one strange individual.

What's interesting some try to rationalize his behavior as being normal. This photoshopping a picture sounds like something a serial killer would do...it's just spooky. This kid ain't normal, in my opinion.

jmo

This "photoshopping a picture sounds like something a serial killer would do"?

I'd like to see a reference to any case of a serial killer wherein that killer was found to be photoshopping 2 fully clothed kids together in a fake picture.

[No Nic]

I am wondering if it is now OK to put all parts of Joran's book here, despite that it was translated by who knows who.

There are many parts here that shed light on the behavior of the teens after they left the bar, quite personal details about what happened, and other parts that claim some conversation between Croes and Beth, which was very personal.

It would seem that if it is OK here on this board to pick out Joran's translated text as being the truth, then the whole book should be seen as the truth.

I don't have time right now, but if the moderator says it is OK to quote from this translation of Joran's book, that is OK for posters to pick things out of context to try to make Joran look bad, then I would ask the moderator if it is OK to pick out the things he says that are not flattering to other players.

Riviera??? OK to quote from the translation of Joran's book as published on Scrux.com? As No Nic and others are doing?

Always good to get an OK or not OK.

Have you changed your mind?

From the Natalee II thread (post # 9030):

Originally Posted by Ortiga
We all link to Scrux, or many of us do, because it has the transcripts, interviews, videos, and translations.

Please do