Children who kill

[AmyW]

If I put this in the wrong place, I apologize. I wasn't sure where else to put it since the "Murders and Killings" forum is closed to new topics.

Has anyone else read / studied the Shanda Sharer case? I have read several books about her murder and it really bothers me. I have a huge collection of true crime books, and while they disturb me, I can put most of them in the back of my mind. This one is a different story.

Here's the link:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/1.html

A link talking about Hope Rippey's release:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/features/fea_printPage.asp?curPage=&thisFile=/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/new10.html

A link talking about Toni Lawrence's release:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/9.html

These girls disgust me, they really do. I can't seem to wrap my mind around the idea that a group of girls would find it acceptable to torture and kill a 12-year-old. In the mug shots, two of them are smiling!
http://www.geocities.com/shandasharerwebsite/shandamurderers.html

:flamemad: :mad: :cuss:

[Levi]

If I put this in the wrong place, I apologize. I wasn't sure where else to put it since the "Murders and Killings" forum is closed to new topics.

Has anyone else read / studied the Shanda Sharer case? I have read several books about her murder and it really bothers me. I have a huge collection of true crime books, and while they disturb me, I can put most of them in the back of my mind. This one is a different story.

Here's the link:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/1.html

A link talking about Hope Rippey's release:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/features/fea_printPage.asp?curPage=&thisFile=/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/new10.html

A link talking about Toni Lawrence's release:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/9.html

These girls disgust me, they really do. I can't seem to wrap my mind around the idea that a group of girls would find it acceptable to torture and kill a 12-year-old. In the mug shots, two of them are smiling!
http://www.geocities.com/shandasharerwebsite/shandamurderers.html

:flamemad: :mad: :cuss:

Wow. Sounds like a very disturbing case!
That would be an excellent idea. Have you contacted Freshwater about starting a sub-board about Children who kill? It will be good to spotlight cases like this & debate whether or not they should be tried as adults.

[AmyW]

I'll contact Freshwater about that. Thanks for the good suggestion! And this case is very disturbing, believe me. Those girls took Shanda against her will, tortured her, beat her, and finally burned her alive. She was only 12! It breaks my heart to think about what she must have felt and how her family has suffered. I can't believe they released any of them. :flamemad:

[User615]

It's curious how we all admit that the teenage mind is not fully developed enough to understand long term consequences or even right from wrong, yet we treat them as adults. I think the parents are just as much to blame, but they never bear the burden it seems. Recently in Nashville we had a "ghetto girl" murder a store owner in cold blood. She was 15 years old, and gunned down an unarmed 53 year old man. Now is this "normal" behaviour for a 15 year old? Certainly not. She is probably a product of her environment. I don't have an answer, I just know that at some point blame has to be more than simply putting teenagers in jail.

[AmyW]

I agree with you that the parents are responsible. One of the murderers, Melinda Loveless, endured a horrible childhood thanks to her perverted father. Her mother was abused by the man on a regular basis. The teens are, in my opinion, old enough to know that what they did was wrong, but the parents could possibly have done something different and this crime may never have been committed.

I'm not sure what could be done, other than put them away where they can't hurt others. Do you think they could be rehabilitated?

[walton]

If I put this in the wrong place, I apologize. I wasn't sure where else to put it since the "Murders and Killings" forum is closed to new topics.

Has anyone else read / studied the Shanda Sharer case? I have read several books about her murder and it really bothers me. I have a huge collection of true crime books, and while they disturb me, I can put most of them in the back of my mind. This one is a different story.

Here's the link:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/1.html

A link talking about Hope Rippey's release:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/features/fea_printPage.asp?curPage=&thisFile=/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/new10.html

A link talking about Toni Lawrence's release:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/9.html

These girls disgust me, they really do. I can't seem to wrap my mind around the idea that a group of girls would find it acceptable to torture and kill a 12-year-old. In the mug shots, two of them are smiling!
http://www.geocities.com/shandasharerwebsite/shandamurderers.html

:flamemad: :mad: :cuss:

After reading your post I went to check out the story at Crime Library. This is just crazy.

Do you know if there were any books written about this story? Was there ever anything mentioned about the girls doing anything like this before?

[User615]

I agree with you that the parents are responsible. One of the murderers, Melinda Loveless, endured a horrible childhood thanks to her perverted father. Her mother was abused by the man on a regular basis. The teens are, in my opinion, old enough to know that what they did was wrong, but the parents could possibly have done something different and this crime may never have been committed.

I'm not sure what could be done, other than put them away where they can't hurt others. Do you think they could be rehabilitated?

That's a great question, but I am not well versed enough to know the answer to that. Someone in criminal psychology could probably shed more light. I think we all remember our teen years, and how out of control we were at the time, and how we eventually "saw the light". I just don't know if someone that was abused and mistreated during those years can ever get over it. I spoke with a lady that was raped repeatedly from the time she was 9 until she was 14, and she told me that it took much therapy and time to heal from it. She said by the time she was 30 she was finally able to achieve something of a normal sex life. She has been married and divorced 4 times though, so I suspect she still has some issues, but thankfully she hasn't taken them out on anyone that I know of.

[bluedemond]

this is the bluedemond, can anyone tell me about the child killer named mary Bell? and what happened to her when she got older? does anyone know if shes alive?:shrug:

[mjwe]

Do you know if there were any books written about this story? Was there ever anything mentioned about the girls doing anything like this before?

there r two books about the shanda sharer murder:

'little lost angel' - michael quinlan
'cruel sacrifice' - aphrodite jones


'little lost angel' was written with shanda's parents cooperation. 'cruel sacrifice' heavily discusses melinda loveless' (1 of the killers) disturbed childhood.

go here to see pix of shanda and of her killers:

http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/shandapix/

[walton]

there r two books about the shanda sharer murder:

'little lost angel' - michael quinlan
'cruel sacrifice' - aphrodite jones


'little lost angel' was written with shanda's parents cooperation. 'cruel sacrifice' heavily discusses melinda loveless' (1 of the killers) disturbed childhood.

go here to see pix of shanda and of her killers:

http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/shandapix/

Thanks. I was curious about the girlfriend Amanda Heavrin. I wonder if Melinda ever made contact with her after the trial.

[walton]

this is the bluedemond, can anyone tell me about the child killer named mary Bell? and what happened to her when she got older? does anyone know if shes alive?:shrug:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/child/story/0,,688123,00.html

She is alive and well.

I don't know how they can say rehabilitation works in this case if Mary Bell is hiding from the truth about who she is and what she did. jmo

[icemaiden]

Hi

I have always been a bit cynical about things being to blame for people's behaviour, and I have always thought that at some point we all have a choice of how to behave and can't go through life blaming our experiences for the decisions we make.

I guess it's not fair to apply this cynicism to children. I was reading on the site yesterday the theories about video games and television and the effect they have on children from an early age. It made a lot of sense to me... that children have no idea of the consequences of murder etc. They learn to shoot to kill and that life is expendable.

I don't know how aware all of you are of the Jamie Bulger case but one of the Child's Play films got a lot of the blame for what those 2 young boys did to that child.

I suppose I'm just interested in what any of your thoughts are about this subject?

[walton]

I had to go back and read the story here at the Library. I didn't remember that the movie Child's Play was an issue.

I have a hard time swallowing the fact that when certain crimes are comitted that they can blame video games, television shows or music. jmo

These kids might have had access to the video Child's Play but something tells me that they also had access to other video's and television shows. Did they act out any of the things done on Mr. Rodgers? Little House? or other shows?

From chapter 8: Teachers started noticing Jon’s attention-seeking behavior when it began in 1991. He would do strange things, like rock back and forth in his chair, holding onto his desk, moaning and making odd noises. His teacher moved him to the front of the class where she could keep an eye on him, but then he took to knocking things over on her desk. At first, Jon’s violence was self-inflicted. He banged his head on the furniture, against the wall, and would throw himself on the floor. Jon cut himself with scissors and tore at his own clothing. But sometimes his self-destruction pivoted outward.

These two have since been released. Here is an article from 2001

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1394595.stm

Interesting topic.

[mjwe]

Thanks. I was curious about the girlfriend Amanda Heavrin. I wonder if Melinda ever made contact with her after the trial.

np! i was just discussing this case with someone over email. i think everyones curious about amanda. shes the 1 stuck in the middle of the whole thing, yet we dont know much about her. which is ok b/c i dont think shes @ all guilty like someone people do. from what ive read, i dont think she had contact with melinda after she went to prison. i think melinda quickly found herself a new gf (or many) and i think amanda has moved on. although i have no way to know if thats true.

people have come online as 'amanda heavrin' on a couple of different forums. supposedly, she was even on the 'shanda-sharer-murder' yahoogroup a few years ago. and right now theres someone on topix.net claiming to be her. i dont buy it @ all, but heres the link if ur interested:

http://www.topix.net/forum/city/albany-in/TAO51NM4THM53PHJT

and the yahoogroup:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shanda-sharer-murder/

[walton]

I read thru a few pages here and there and it all makes me raise an eyebrow.

Did you see the last line in her profile @ topix forum? If it is her who could call her on any of the stories? If it isn't her. I'd have to say that there is one warped puppy out there in cyber land. I'll have to read more on that forum later.

I've never been a part of the yahoo thing. Not even sure how it works.

Thanks for the links.

[Auntie Venom]

I have my doubts as to whether those posts were made by Amanda Heavrin. Judging by the bad grammar and spelling it looks to me like some drunk put them up there to be "funny". I can't imagine why Amanda would be knocking around on sites about Shanda anyway, I would think that she would want to distance herself from the whole thing and try to put the past behind her. She was in a no-win situation that got way out of control and I'm sure she's had her own guilt to work through. There was a "look at me!" quality to those posts that I found suspicious and not at all the kind of behavior you would expect from a person in Amanda's circumstances. But then again, stranger things have happened...

[walton]

I went back to the topix site and did a little more reading and of course got side tracked.

There is an Amanda listed in Floyd Knobs IN.

I checked out some other sites that she has posted on and some of her writing skills seemed a little different.

But check this out. http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/The-Murder-of-Innocence-93158.html


Hmmmm

I go back to topix and pick up where I left off.

[icemaiden]

I had to go back and read the story here at the Library. I didn't remember that the movie Child's Play was an issue.

I have a hard time swallowing the fact that when certain crimes are comitted that they can blame video games, television shows or music. jmo

These kids might have had access to the video Child's Play but something tells me that they also had access to other video's and television shows. Did they act out any of the things done on Mr. Rodgers? Little House? or other shows?

From chapter 8:

These two have since been released. Here is an article from 2001

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1394595.stm

Interesting topic.
hi walton

i remember when it all happened the film was banned in the UK. i'm with you on the "influencing" theory, it's very easy to blame outside influences when it's children who are involved..

[mjwe]

I have my doubts as to whether those posts were made by Amanda Heavrin. Judging by the bad grammar and spelling it looks to me like some drunk put them up there to be "funny". I can't imagine why Amanda would be knocking around on sites about Shanda anyway, I would think that she would want to distance herself from the whole thing and try to put the past behind her. She was in a no-win situation that got way out of control and I'm sure she's had her own guilt to work through. There was a "look at me!" quality to those posts that I found suspicious and not at all the kind of behavior you would expect from a person in Amanda's circumstances. But then again, stranger things have happened...

i agree. idk amanda or n e body from this case, but i just dont think its her. this 'amanda' person is a member of the yahoogroup and has posted recently, yet shes not claiming to be her on there @ this moment. something else i was thinking about..... on topix.net, there is no new info supplied by this 'amanda'. i only see info that has been written in books. not that i would expect the real amanda to give private details, but u know?

i think that amanda heavrin has moved on as much as she can. i dont believe she lurks around websites inviting people to this problem in her life. maybe she has/does read them though!

[walton]

In my travels last week I picked up Cruel Sacrifice by Aphrodite Jones. I am about half way done.

Today I ordered Little Lost Angel by Michael Quinlan.

And to try and make sense of it all I ordered Human Predator by Katherine Ramsland.

I also ordered a few other books does anyone know the how to and what for on books that are printed to order? Does this mean that the Author can add new information as he/she gets it?

Thanks
Walton

[mjwe]

idk really. but i googled this not too long ago. one site said it offers print to order books for books that r hard to find or not in print n e more. last year or so, i bought 'justice for selena' which was printed on demand. i read that people do this to build a market for their books, control sales and keep their options wide open. :)

[walton]

Thanks mjwe. The book in question could be considered a history book. I was thinking that the author might be adding new information as he/she gets it.

3 more days and the rest of the books come. :) I just finished Cruel Sacrifices.

[mjwe]

what did u think of it? :confused:

[AmyW]

In my travels last week I picked up Cruel Sacrifice by Aphrodite Jones. I am about half way done.

Today I ordered Little Lost Angel by Michael Quinlan.

And to try and make sense of it all I ordered Human Predator by Katherine Ramsland.

I also ordered a few other books does anyone know the how to and what for on books that are printed to order? Does this mean that the Author can add new information as he/she gets it?

Thanks
Walton


"Little Lost Angel' Is a much better read, in my opinion. From my experience, A. Jones is not a great writer and I avoid anything written by her. But that's just my opinion.

[walton]

I kind of felt like I was jumping all over the place when I was reading it. But I am glad that I read this one first.

Reading about these four girls and the family background does make me shake my head and ask what the heck. It was like Dominoes. Signs all over the place. Noticable signs. And yet.....

Some people might read it and think that some of the events that took place are reasons these girls did what they did. But I see it differently.

Each and everyone of these girls had a choice. They chose the wrong path time and time again.

Sad and very scary.

[mjwe]

Some people might read it and think that some of the events that took place are reasons these girls did what they did. But I see it differently.

Each and everyone of these girls had a choice. They chose the wrong path time and time again.

i agree! :no:

The parents are not always responsible. Sometimes they are, sometimes they are not.

i definitely think some of these parents of this case r responsible in a way. not the murder of shanda itself b/c i think all the girls were old enough to know murder is wrong. but what i mean is..... these girls were out all night, driving around. lauries mother saw them how early in the morning just getting in? and laurie was able to just yell @ her and continue on her way? :no: even melindas mom..... wasnt she aware of them being out all night? doesnt so much apply to toni & hopes parents b/c didnt they lie to them about where they were going/doing? its like these girls just didnt have rules..... or @ least no consequences for their actions. :shrug:

[walton]

Blaming the parents.

Where does it stop? Sexual, physical,verbal and mental abuse from one set of parents on down. But why were they like they were? Her parents? Were they abusive? His parents? Were they abusive? Those apples don't fall far from the tree. jmo

Some of these girls even sought counseling. How far can a person go?
What about the principal? Child welfare? This is what I am saying there were so many signs that this group of girls was headed for a big Crash. And there were other options. Sometimes therapy just doesn't work. Dominoes. One right after the other.

There could be another book written about just the parents from this story. And what is really scary is that this happened not that long ago. Many of todays programs were already in place.

How about the practice of "cutting"? What does one do? Who do you tell? And what could they do about it?

I am working on a different book now, but when I finish that I am going to read Little Lost Angel.

[mjwe]

Some of these girls even sought counseling. How far can a person go? What about the principal? Child welfare? This is what I am saying there were so many signs that this group of girls was headed for a big Crash. And there were other options.

i agree. i think a bunch of people neglected their responsibilities to these girls. like when melinda went to the guidance counselor (or principal?) to talk about her being a lesbian...... the adult handed her a pamphlet on interracial dating and showed her the door. :shrug: or when the police came to arrest melinda & laurie...... melindas mom grabbed her by the shoulders and asked 'what did u do to amanda?'..... not knowing shanda was the victim. marjorie knew what melinda was capable of!?! :eek: or even melindas childhood.... majorie had a responsibilty to get those girls out of that abusive household. but... im not quite sure about lauries parents. i dont have the books in front of me (my sister is reading them).... her mother beat her, right? and forced to go to church? idk whats so bad about going to church. didnt laurie admit in court that her mother didnt beat her as often and/or as bad as she had claimed? :confused:

but even after i say all this, those girls r the only ones responsible for shandas murder. THEY beat shanda. THEY cut her. THEY locked her in a trunk all night. THEY sprayed windex on her wounds. THEY set her on fire.

[walton]

mjwe,


I think Lauries mother was a little over the edge with the Church issue. There is just something about having a minister or priest coming over to the house to do an excorcism or what ever it was to cast away the evil. Talk about a blind eye. whew!

Yup, this story could have easily gone on into another book or two.

I must tell you that this was nice being able to share this story with someone. Thanks.

[mjwe]

oh yeah, i forgot about that! :confused:

[clover]

hi walton

i remember when it all happened the film was banned in the UK. i'm with you on the "influencing" theory, it's very easy to blame outside influences when it's children who are involved..

I find this very interesting. I remember a case from when I was a child where three 6-year old boys killed a 5-year old girl. It was blamed on the influence from TV. "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" was banned in Norway because of that case. I too feel it's easy to blame outside influences when kids are concerned. Now, I think I may have been about the same age as these kids at the time and I was shocked. It never would have crossed my mind to be violent to another kid, except maybe pushing them around a bit - which can't really compare. So I ask myself who's to blame? It can't just be a TV show.

[clover]

Sorry, it was "Power Rangers" that was banned, not "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles". I can't edit my post.

[lildoxiedog]

When you torture somebody and ignore their cries for help/mercy, etc. Then you know what you are doing is wrong. It's not like they did one act of violence on her and then felt terrible, this was a whole night of torture. If you read about what that girl endured, it should turn your stomach. Also, why would they try to cover up their crime if they didn't know/felt it was wrong? I think the act was horrendous enough and the girls old enough to be tried as adults.

[mjwe]

i agree.

u know what REALLY bothers me is indianas 'serve a good day, get 1 taken off ur sentence' rule. what IS that? i could maybe see that for people who commit white collar crimes, but 4 murder!?! :eek: :no: :cuss:

[AmyW]

i agree.

u know what REALLY bothers me is indianas 'serve a good day, get 1 taken off ur sentence' rule. what IS that? i could maybe see that for people who commit white collar crimes, but 4 murder!?! :eek: :no: :cuss:

I have to agree with you that it's outrageous. I found some info online about it:

Caroline Peterson, Greencastle:

I recently visited a prison facility for juveniles. While I was there, a young inmate told me her mother went into labor with her in that very same prison when she was only 14 years old. Something needs to be done to stop this cycle. Simply locking people up for longer is clearly not the solution. Senate Bill 2 would require most prison inmates in Indiana to serve 85 percent of their sentences. Currently, inmates get one day off their sentence for every day they are well-behaved. In theory, this bill seems like a great idea -- lock the criminal up and they will not commit any more crimes. In practice, however, this doesn't solve problems, but rather, delays them. Senate Bill 2 will cost Indiana nearly $115 million a year to operate new prisons. Half of all prisoners don't graduate from high school. Great expectations start at the lower level. Shouldn't that $115 million a year go toward funding full-day kindergarten, giving kids education, keeping them off the street and away from prisons in the future?


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070128/OPINION03/701280402

[dallasvic]

np! i was just discussing this case with someone over email. i think everyones curious about amanda. shes the 1 stuck in the middle of the whole thing, yet we dont know much about her. which is ok b/c i dont think shes @ all guilty like someone people do. from what ive read, i dont think she had contact with melinda after she went to prison. i think melinda quickly found herself a new gf (or many) and i think amanda has moved on. although i have no way to know if thats true.

people have come online as 'amanda heavrin' on a couple of different forums. supposedly, she was even on the 'shanda-sharer-murder' yahoogroup a few years ago. and right now theres someone on topix.net claiming to be her. i dont buy it @ all, but heres the link if ur interested:

http://www.topix.net/forum/city/albany-in/TAO51NM4THM53PHJT

and the yahoogroup:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shanda-sharer-murder/

I just went to that first site ww.topix.net and it shows her name -AMANDA HEAVRIN<, Indianapolis, IN and the message reads . I still live in New Albany and have joined the miliary. How can she be in IN and New Albany at the same time ? Wierd !:confused:

[dallasvic]

I read the story and is hreat breaking. I am like you this one is going to stick in my mine for awhile. Kinda wished i had not read it. These girls were cruel . I noticed in the story the they attened a rock concert . hard heavy metal .Some people say that that type of music has a influnce on kids. Thats just what I have heard .I feel for the mother that is for sure and the parents that lost their girls to prison.s

[Jadedblueeyes]

I read the story and is hreat breaking. I am like you this one is going to stick in my mine for awhile. Kinda wished i had not read it. These girls were cruel . I noticed in the story the they attended a rock concert . hard heavy metal .Some people say that that type of music has a influence on kids. Thats just what I have heard .I feel for the mother that is for sure and the parents that lost their girls to prison.s

What seems so obvious in these cases there is some kind of disconnect. Not only are the murders usually extremely horrendous, cruel and torturous many times the suspect(s) exhibit no remorse whatsoever. They cant feel what is not within them.

It seems our young people are filled with vengeful anger and will show that anger in the worst possible way. I really don't know why this is...it may be an accumulation of many things in our society. Most of them just dont seem to have much of a conscience to guide them in what is right and what is terribly wrong.

I haven't read this particular story and dont know if I will. I have gotten where these cases of children who murder very hard to digest.

imoo

[Athena]

I find this very interesting. I remember a case from when I was a child where three 6-year old boys killed a 5-year old girl. It was blamed on the influence from TV. "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" was banned in Norway because of that case. I too feel it's easy to blame outside influences when kids are concerned. Now, I think I may have been about the same age as these kids at the time and I was shocked. It never would have crossed my mind to be violent to another kid, except maybe pushing them around a bit - which can't really compare. So I ask myself who's to blame? It can't just be a TV show.

Just to address this post. This happened approximately 12-13 years ago. I remember it so well because my son who is now 17 was totally into the Power Rangers as were millions of other kids all over the US. The schools had to monitor recess time because almost every kid 3-8 years old wanted to play "Power Ranger". As far as I can recall this was the first case of a death but many, many children got hurt doing this role playing. I banned the Power Rangers movies, toys, etc in my home and would not allow other children to come into my home with their toys and I was the "meanest" mom. While I believe parental control is necessary in this instance it was definitely the result of media gone wild with the profits that the toys associated with this show produced. TV shows especially geared to youngers 3-8 are very instrumental and influential on our children. Comparing 3-6 year olds to teens are very different as 3-6 year olds do not understand related consequences.

If anyone recalls when violence started appearing on TV it was after deregulation in 1984. The shows just continue to get worse and its up to the public to attempt to stop this. JMO

[MaggieMay]

There was also a case in England in around 1993, when 2 ten year old boys killed a 2 year old child in Liverpool. The 2 boys are now in their twenties and never went to prison, they did around 8 years in a juvenile detention centre and when they were 18 were released to get on with their lives. The little boy was called James Bulger and he endured a couple hours of torture before he was killed.

[cinnamonface]

I've read "Cruel Sacrifice" twice now. Once about 5 years ago and then again just recently. I think many things factor in when you start passing blame. There is no doubt Melinda's parents bear a large portion of blame for Melinda's lack of conscience I have no doubt about that. No child should ever witness the things she witnessed. Her father was a psycho and her mother didn't have enough sense to get her children or herself out of that nightmare. Anyone can look at that situation and say well she had two sisters who endured it and didn't go out and kill anyone but again, they weren't Melinda and each person has their own perspective, their own strengths, their own weaknesses and their own way of handling things so you can't compare one child to another. Emotionally, according to the psychologist/psychiatrist Melinda was still a very immature person. Her growth was stunted by that freakazoid of a father she grew up with. Yes, there's no doubt she's guilty of murder and what she did was wrong and she deserves to be in jail because no matter what your upbringing and no matter what you go through in life you can't just go around murdering people and you must pay the consequences of your actions for such things but I have no doubt her upbringing had everything to do with it!!!! I don't believe anyone could go through such an ordeal in their life day in and day out and not be negatively effected by it. Then its just a matter of personality and perspective as to what you'll do with all that negativity. Just my opinion of course!

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m71/cinnamonface/Thumbnails/DSCN1512.jpg

[sallynuts]

I've read "Cruel Sacrifice" twice now. Once about 5 years ago and then again just recently. I think many things factor in when you start passing blame. There is no doubt Melinda's parents bear a large portion of blame for Melinda's lack of conscience I have no doubt about that. No child should ever witness the things she witnessed. Her father was a psycho and her mother didn't have enough sense to get her children or herself out of that nightmare. Anyone can look at that situation and say well she had two sisters who endured it and didn't go out and kill anyone but again, they weren't Melinda and each person has their own perspective, their own strengths, their own weaknesses and their own way of handling things so you can't compare one child to another. Emotionally, according to the psychologist/psychiatrist Melinda was still a very immature person. Her growth was stunted by that freakazoid of a father she grew up with. Yes, there's no doubt she's guilty of murder and what she did was wrong and she deserves to be in jail because no matter what your upbringing and no matter what you go through in life you can't just go around murdering people and you must pay the consequences of your actions for such things but I have no doubt her upbringing had everything to do with it!!!! I don't believe anyone could go through such an ordeal in their life day in and day out and not be negatively effected by it. Then its just a matter of personality and perspective as to what you'll do with all that negativity. Just my opinion of course!

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m71/cinnamonface/Thumbnails/DSCN1512.jpg

I am not familiar with the case, or book that you are referring too,,, please let me know, then i can read it for myself,,..

However,,, i don't have the same sentiments as you,,, because,, unless this person you are referring to, 'Melinda' who committed the crime, was mentally incapacitated, that she did not know, that what she was doing was wrong, then there is no excuse. She had a choice.

JMO,,,


Sharon

[cinnamonface]

The book is "Cruel Sacrifice" by Aphrodite Jones.

However,,, i don't have the same sentiments as you,,, because,, unless this person you are referring to, 'Melinda' who committed the crime, was mentally incapacitated, that she did not know, that what she was doing was wrong, then there is no excuse. She had a choice.


I agree with you completely here. Melinda knew what she was doing was wrong, what happened to her as a child is no excuse for murdering someone, and especially as cruelly as she did it, and she deserves the sentence she got and she most definitely had a choice. But, had she not had the upbringing she had I am willing to bet she would have made different choices. We'll never know but thats just my opinion.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m71/cinnamonface/Thumbnails/DSCN1512.jpg

[mjwe]

I just went to that first site ww.topix.net and it shows her name -AMANDA HEAVRIN<, Indianapolis, IN and the message reads . I still live in New Albany and have joined the miliary. How can she be in IN and New Albany at the same time ? Wierd !:confused:

i know. 'amanda' logged in from a few different locations. :rolleyes:

[CelticAussie]

That's a great question, but I am not well versed enough to know the answer to that. Someone in criminal psychology could probably shed more light. I think we all remember our teen years, and how out of control we were at the time, and how we eventually "saw the light". I just don't know if someone that was abused and mistreated during those years can ever get over it. I spoke with a lady that was raped repeatedly from the time she was 9 until she was 14, and she told me that it took much therapy and time to heal from it. She said by the time she was 30 she was finally able to achieve something of a normal sex life. She has been married and divorced 4 times though, so I suspect she still has some issues, but thankfully she hasn't taken them out on anyone that I know of.

I agree that it takes years to get over some things , I never cop that abused as a child excuse for doing evil things , I have never had the inclination to commit violence or rape or to hurt other people in my life , other than being a bit reclusive and not very out going socially,and workig jobs with a fair to middling chance of ending up a fatility (oil rigs,gas platforms,drilling ships an oil refineries) I consider myself fairly normal ,I dont hurt anyone in this world if I can possibly help it despite the fact that my stepfather was a sadistic pedophile who had control of my life from the age of 3 until I was 11...as a child who lived through that I know with out a doubt I could never inflict that sort of suffering on other children or on people in general .Although I do not understand why my mother stood bye all those years until my grandparents took us away I guess i never will .In my opinion evil is just evil ..and letting the circumstances of your childhood control your adult life is letting whoever it was who caused you that painfull childhood to win because ultimately thats there aim is to change you and control you so bye living your life free of violence and suffering you beat them and thats something they can never take away from you for the rest of your life ..well I dont know if this make any sense to anyone else I tend to be a little emotional when I write on this subject ..so I will sign off now ..be well all ..till next time ...

[cinnamonface]

Well I certainly can't say what it is like to be raised in such a horrible way because that wasn't my upbringing but I can say without a doubt that while one child comes out one way another may come out of the same situation very differently. No one reacts to the same situation in the same way. Some are stronger and some are weaker than others. Some are never rescued by grandparents or ever have any sort of support system to fall back on. You can't compare one person to another because each handles things differently. Anyone who has more than one child knows that each child handles things differently and while raising your children you may use certain methods that work with one child but the same methods may not work with another because children just don't react to the same things in the same ways. We are all individuals. There is no doubt that all of us have to be responsible for our actions and that is why Melinda Loveless is in prison for her crimes. She deserves to be there but it is also understandable that given the conditions she grew up in she may have lost it somewhere along the way. While one child may be able to endure such a childhood another just might not and could end up being a couple cards short of a full deck.

In my opinion evil is just evil ..and letting the circumstances of your childhood control your adult life is letting whoever it was who caused you that painfull childhood to win because ultimately thats there aim is to change you and control you so bye living your life free of violence and suffering you beat them and thats something they can never take away from you for the rest of your life ..

While I agree with you that its wise to find a way to let go of the past and try to move forward as an adult I think you would have to agree that Melinda wasn't exactly an adult when she commit these crimes. Yes she was tried as an adult but a 16 year old is not an adult and especially a 16 year old Melinda who the psychiatrists found to be very immature for her age. Her emotional growth was very stunted because of her childhood so I would say that she was still a child trying to deal with the nightmare she was living with as a child in her crazy home life and wondering why Amanda didn't want to be with her anymore. Killing someone was certainly not the answer but she was still a confused, very abused and mixed up child who boiled over and didn't know how to deal with those emotions. I'm not saying what she did was right or even that what she went through as a child excuses it all I'm saying is if not for her childhood I believe things would have been much different and she probably would not have reacted as she did and Shanda would still be among us today. Just my opnion of course.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m71/cinnamonface/Thumbnails/DSCN1512.jpg

[Jadedblueeyes]

I've read "Cruel Sacrifice" twice now. Once about 5 years ago and then again just recently. I think many things factor in when you start passing blame. There is no doubt Melinda's parents bear a large portion of blame for Melinda's lack of conscience I have no doubt about that. No child should ever witness the things she witnessed. Her father was a psycho and her mother didn't have enough sense to get her children or herself out of that nightmare. Anyone can look at that situation and say well she had two sisters who endured it and didn't go out and kill anyone but again, they weren't Melinda and each person has their own perspective, their own strengths, their own weaknesses and their own way of handling things so you can't compare one child to another. Emotionally, according to the psychologist/psychiatrist Melinda was still a very immature person. Her growth was stunted by that freakazoid of a father she grew up with. Yes, there's no doubt she's guilty of murder and what she did was wrong and she deserves to be in jail because no matter what your upbringing and no matter what you go through in life you can't just go around murdering people and you must pay the consequences of your actions for such things but I have no doubt her upbringing had everything to do with it!!!! I don't believe anyone could go through such an ordeal in their life day in and day out and not be negatively effected by it. Then its just a matter of personality and perspective as to what you'll do with all that negativity. Just my opinion of course!

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m71/cinnamonface/Thumbnails/DSCN1512.jpg

I totally believe it is according to the individual person and the amount of abuse being more or even less for one or the other doesn't really matter that much. The thought processes of each individual defines what the abuse meant to them and how they have dealt with it. I was severely abused as a child from the age of 5 until 15. To say the least I certainly had no good foundation laid for me to follow by my highly dysfunctional parents but still through it all I knew 1) it was very wrong 2) that I would never treat another human being as I had been treated..... which I have kept that promise to myself and have never broken. THAT was my choice in dealing with the abuse. To make my life unlike them.

Sure I lacked self esteem and went through all the frozen fear factors during those years but I never lost sight of who I was. My one goal in life was to be the opposite from whence I came. I never let go of that goal not once. My parents left me a roadmap on what not to do and how not to conduct myself. So I endured the abuse and although fearful of my shadow they did not rob of my spirit within even though they tried their best to destroy it. I dreamed of better days...... One day having a loving family......being a good and loving moma to my children and an all round good person and as my world came down around me so many times I just kept dreaming my dream of hope and my spirit held on by the grace of God. I had no anger.......I just longed for the day that it would stop.

I determined after many years of therapy they were the ones who were weak and that is why they preyed like cowards on their child that only wanted love and approval from them.

So I do not and never have believed that any excuses should be allowed because of any abuse done to someone especially when trying to say it is the cause of why some would do such things as taking the life of another human being. THAT is not normal behavior abused or not.

It makes absolutely no sense to do so imo. Millions unfortunately are abused in our country today both males and females yet it is only a tiny majority of those 300 million that resort to the ultimate act of murder. It wasn't because of abuse imo it was a choice they made just like we all have choices to make the right or wrong decision.

Since we have seen murderers that were not abused in their lives then it shows imo that it is more of a character flaw that makes a human capable of murder. Something not in the mind set of most. Something in their thought processes are very different than most others who would never kill no matter their past.

It seems one who is a narcissist or has psychopathic tendencies would be more likely to murder as they simply have no feelings for anyone other than themselves.

I have forgotten the author but has anyone ever read "When Rabbit Howls"? IIRC that is the name. Such a tragic case about childhood abuses endured by this lady.
She has to be in her 60s now I would think. I saw her on Oprah many years ago and ordered her book.

imoo

[Mishell1383]

<snipped> to save space

I have forgotten the author but has anyone ever read "When Rabbit Howls"? IIRC that is the name. Such a tragic case about childhood abuses endured by this lady.
She has to be in her 60s now I would think. I saw her on Oprah many years ago and ordered her book.

imoo
Read Dave Peltzer's book A Child Called It. WOW The abuse he endured only to become an advocate for abused children and a great father and husband.

[clover]

Just to address this post. This happened approximately 12-13 years ago. I remember it so well because my son who is now 17 was totally into the Power Rangers as were millions of other kids all over the US. The schools had to monitor recess time because almost every kid 3-8 years old wanted to play "Power Ranger". As far as I can recall this was the first case of a death but many, many children got hurt doing this role playing. I banned the Power Rangers movies, toys, etc in my home and would not allow other children to come into my home with their toys and I was the "meanest" mom. While I believe parental control is necessary in this instance it was definitely the result of media gone wild with the profits that the toys associated with this show produced. TV shows especially geared to youngers 3-8 are very instrumental and influential on our children. Comparing 3-6 year olds to teens are very different as 3-6 year olds do not understand related consequences.

If anyone recalls when violence started appearing on TV it was after deregulation in 1984. The shows just continue to get worse and its up to the public to attempt to stop this. JMO

Oh, wow, this case got worldwide attention? To this day I still cringe when I hear about the case, because it was such a horrible event and it happened in my own town. I agree about parental control, parents can't tune out to what their kids are doing and seeing. And when thinking back I remember that the show aired right after school/kindergarten, no wonder kids were influenced.

[jlhnokc]

Hello all-I have read that book and it is utterly guttwrenching. While I believe a children's upbringing can have an effect in determining their personality disorders, I stand firm those are never excuses. A child that was abused and becomes a sociopath is not an excuse for murdering someone, it's a reason to get help and get on the right path. Even people out there that do not feel anything and are incapable of remorse or guilt, still know they are wrong when they commit a crime. Before they commit a crime is when they should get help, instead of going ahead and doing it, hurting tonz of people and then using their upbringing as an excuse. IMO

[DigitalDreamKat]

Lots of points here :)

1. I think blaming video games, movies etc argument is bogus. I'm fairly certain there is an article in the CL about this. If you take the millions of children who watch these shows and don't commit crimes and compare them to the few who do, you will see just how meaningless the argument is.

2. The OP, that case is just heartbreaking. When I first read it, I was sick to my stomach. Every single one of those girls who participated had a choice. None of it was in a moment of anger, it was slow, oh so slow, torture. By all accounts, the girls were educated enough to know what a cry for help is.

3. I don't hold much sway with the I was abused as a kid so now I abuse argument either. I once saw a fascinating documentary, wish I could remember the name of it, on pedophiles and child molesters. They had a bunch of peds and CMs in a 12 step type program, so at one point, they had to face the parents of the children that had been abused. One of the abusers trotted out the same old argument. Then one of the parents looked the guy right in the eye and told him that he too had been abused as a child and he therefore made sure that never abused his kids, so why couldn't he (the abuser) make the same choice. The abuser had no answer, except to say, well, I guess I'm just a bad person.

[Mishell1383]

Lots of points here :)

1. I think blaming video games, movies etc argument is bogus. I'm fairly certain there is an article in the CL about this. If you take the millions of children who watch these shows and don't commit crimes and compare them to the few who do, you will see just how meaningless the argument is.

2. The OP, that case is just heartbreaking. When I first read it, I was sick to my stomach. Every single one of those girls who participated had a choice. None of it was in a moment of anger, it was slow, oh so slow, torture. By all accounts, the girls were educated enough to know what a cry for help is.

3. I don't hold much sway with the I was abused as a kid so now I abuse argument either. I once saw a fascinating documentary, wish I could remember the name of it, on pedophiles and child molesters. They had a bunch of peds and CMs in a 12 step type program, so at one point, they had to face the parents of the children that had been abused. One of the abusers trotted out the same old argument. Then one of the parents looked the guy right in the eye and told him that he too had been abused as a child and he therefore made sure that never abused his kids, so why couldn't he (the abuser) make the same choice. The abuser had no answer, except to say, well, I guess I'm just a bad person.

What a huge step for the parents to be able to face these perps. That gave me chills when I read it!

[Family Snapshot]

I agree with you that the parents are responsible. One of the murderers, Melinda Loveless, endured a horrible childhood thanks to her perverted father.

It is apalling to think of a human being enduring what Melinda (or any other victim) endured at the hands of a parent or anyone else. It does not change or lessen the horror of what was suffered at her hands. How can someone who has endured abuse in turn inflict it on others? How many children are abused every day? How many of them perpetrate the same (or worse) on others? How many choose a different path? The answers speak for themselves.

Choice is a powerful thing.