One Of The Most Famous Unsolved Cold Cases

[watson]

The Black Dahlia crime has got to be up there with Jack the Ripper, and Lizzie Borden as one the the most infamous unsolved crimes of history. But this one is really unsolved, and unlike the ancient 'jack the ripper', 'lizzie borden' crimes this one happened in the late 1940's in fairly modern L.A. and there is lots of evidence. (Just google it for a flood of info and hype). I use to think that the unsolved 'Black Dahlia' crime was a good example to demonstrate profiling, and evidence techniques on, till I learned the trully horrific and tragic details of the crime against the victim, a real life young woman seeking her fortune in the LA of the day, named Beth Short.
Interestingly enough almost all book authors, tv producers etc. concerning this case miss the central and telling fact that the torture murder of Beth Short (aka Black Dahlia) was one of a series of similar crimes being committed by a serial killer in the Hollywood LA area before the keystone cops of the 1940's knew what a serial killer was.

[AmyW]

Interesting start! Which other crimes are you referring to? This could be a really good discussion. :beer:

[watson]

Interesting start! Which other crimes are you referring to? This could be a really good discussion.
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Of course I was hoping someone would ask. Sorry it took so long to get back here, but I took a little holiday break. I can't currently give a source for the following info (as I looked it up sometime ago) but I can say it is on the internet somewhere in Black Dahlia sites, these companion crimes are also mentioned by profiler John Douglas in his books where he discusses the case (but without listing them) and by many Black Dahlia book authors who mention and dismiss them only as 'copycat' crimes since they want their books only to build up the legend of Black Dahlia, not to discuss just another serial killer. I don't see how anyone though looking at the evidence can conclude other than 1 or maybe 2 serial killers were working the Hollywood downtown LA area of the 1940's. The series of crimes could be dubbed the '1940's Hollywood/LA Serial Killer Murders'. Anyway the other seemingly related crimes...................
7-23-43 Ora Murray 42 found nude, bludgeoned to death dumped in golf club parking lot after 2am, after a night of drinking and dancing in downtown bars.
10-12-44 Georgina Bauerdorf 20 (a friend of Beth Short's) found nude strangled in her own apt. bathtub, after apparently being followed home from the Hollywood servicemans club.
1-15-47 Elizabeth (Beth) Short aka Black Dahlia 22, found nude, bludgeoned to death dumped in vacat lot on downtown LA Hollywood border, after leaving downtown LA Biltmore hotel with no apparent place to stay the night. Her body was also cut in 2 at the waist, she'd been elborately sexually assulted, and also tortured. It's important to note that all the victims were
sexually assulted but papers and police reports of the time usually would not say so.
2-10-47 Laura French 40 found nude vacant lot bludgeoned, beat to death, strangled, signs of torture, after being seen in downtown/hollywood bars with brown haired man, a message written in lipstick possibly referring to the Short crime written on body.
3-12-47 Evelyn Winters 42 found nude, bludgeoned to death in vacant lot 2 miles from downtown, strangled, last seen in bars the night before.
5-11-47 Laura Trelstad (Telestad) 37 found nude strangled with strip of cloth, bludgeoned, dumped in vacant lot near oil rigs, after being last seen intoxicated bars Long Beach.
7-8-47 Rosenda Mondragon 20 found nude strangled with stocking signs of torture, dumped side of street 1 miles from Winters scene.
2-14-48 Viola Norton 36 (survived) abducted from sidewalk 1:30am Alhambra after bars, by 2 men in a car, beaten, bludgeoned, slashed, dumped for dead blocks from Short scene.
There are several more but must go now....

[watson]

To continue the list from the above post of victims of what would seem to be the downtown LA/Hollywood serial killer(s) of the 1940's who also murdered the 'Black Dahlia'.
6-13-49 Louise Springer 28 abducted with her car while waiting in a downtown parking lot, found 2 days later in car bludgeoned, strangled with a cloth strip, sexually assulted/tortured.
8-11-49 Jean Spangler 27 starlet a onetime roomate of Beth Shorts, body never found, after going on date with new man, and being seen in bars with a brown haired men, or 2 men, purse found on street at Hollywood's Dell park.
8-18-49 Mimi Boombauer (age ?) known as 'the happy widow' after going out on date to nightclubs, body never found, purse left in Wilshire phone booth with note written in lipstick...we found this at beach....

There are 2 more crimes that don't fit as well with all the rest above, but that occured during time gaps in the above series......

Mariann Newton 36 found nude along dirt road San Diego strangled and bludgeoned after leaving popular nightclub late with unknown dark haired man.
Gladys Kern 50 a real estate agent found dead in a empty house after showing it to an unknown dark haired man, stomped to death. Police recieved a note 'before' the body found or they knew of a crime in a mailbox 1/2 block from Biltmore Hotel from the killer or his accomplice, claiming to be the killers accomplice, telling of the crime, saying he wanted to 'help' police.

All the above victims were white. All except Newton and Telestad were last seen in the downtown LA/Hollywood area, almost all, if not all were sexually assulted. To my knowledge none of the crimes were solved.
I think anyone looking at this series of crimes over the time period indicated, with all the similarities would have no doubt a serial predator was involved, but police in the 40's (and even through the 50's and 60's) were unaware of such serial offenders.

[packy]

Quite a list and would seem to point to a serial killer at work. I have heard of many of these. Thanks for compiling this list. Gives a nice frame of reference for those of us who want to continue with questions and discussion.

Although murders of children don't seem to fit with a profile of one or more killers who committed the crimes against the victims you have listed, there were a couple in Chicago that come to mind. I believe a suspect at one time in the Elizabeth Short killing lived in Chicago. Did I read somewhere that Elizabeth was interested in the Suzanne Degnan case in 1946, and she visited Chicago??? Suzanne was kidnapped and found dismembered, her body parts found in a sewer. Later, I believe Judith Mae Anderson was found dismembered and parts found in a barrel floating in the lake. My opinion as I have no links for these but trying to go on memory.

William Heirens was convicted of Suzanne's murder but to ths day claims he was coerced to say things and maintains his innocence.

I've wondered if these cases could be connected.

[Tober]

I don't see how anyone though looking at the evidence can conclude other than 1 or maybe 2 serial killers were working the Hollywood downtown LA area of the 1940's.

IMO, none of the cases you mention are the work of the Black Dahlia's killer. Dahlia's killer was so psychopathologically unique that it's unlikely he or she would be able to kill without an overt representation of his or her personal killing style present in the crime.

[Tober]

Did I read somewhere that Elizabeth was interested in the Suzanne Degnan case in 1946, and she visited Chicago???

http://www.williamtrasmussen.com/ IMO, William Rasmussen makes an excellent case for who most likely killed both the Black Dahlia and Suzanne Degnan.

[One2Snoop]

I watched the movie the other night and thought it was very strange and confusing - I think I need to watch it again.
I'd like to read more on this case. Is there one book over another you would recommend?

[packy]

http://www.williamtrasmussen.com/ IMO, William Rasmussen makes an excellent case for who most likely killed both the Black Dahlia and Suzanne Degnan.

Thank you, Tober. I believe that is where I had read about Elizabeth's visit. Yes he does make a good case. If they would check the dna across the crimes, it may at least be helpful to William Heirens.

[Tober]

Is there one book over another you would recommend?

IMO, the best book on the case is "Severed" by John Gilmore.

[One2Snoop]

IMO, the best book on the case is "Severed" by John Gilmore.

Thanks for the info - I'll check it out. :seeya:

[watson]

IMO, none of the cases you mention are the work of the Black Dahlia's killer. Dahlia's killer was so psychopathologically unique that it's unlikely he or she would be able to kill without an overt representation of his or her personal killing style present in the crime.
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No one acts without motivation?
Old Vern should modify this saying...to no 'normal' person acts without motivation. Sociopathic serial killers by definition are 'not' normal. They act out on what they 'want', that gives them 'pleasure' right 'now'. The morality of their acts, or the harm they do to others never enter into it. The potential consequences to themselves of their acts are of only little and distant importance.
Come on Tober doesn't the above series of crimes (if accurate and I believe them to be) scream out 'serial killer'. This past month (Dec 2006) in Suffolk in the UK when 5 prostitutes in 3 months were abducted from streets of Ipswitch and found dead, nude, and dumped around the countryside, all strangled or sufficated, the UK police and all the world media had no trouble saying 'serial killer' and an arrest was soon made.
In 1940's LA we have 13 victims in 6 years, all females, all out late at night, all but 2 abducted from the small area of downtown LA/Hollywood, all found dead, nude, bludgeoned, and dumped in vacant lots, roadsides, parking lots in that small downtown LA/Hollywood area (except 2 cases). 3 of the victims even knew each other, 3 were dumped almost in the same spots, the killer communicated with press/police in 3 of the cases. Sexual assault was common to all victims and with most victims even fit the same pattern (as far is known). Are we to believe all this was just coincidence, and each of these 13 very similar crimes, in the same area, to the same type of victim, with bodies being dumped almost on top of each other in the same places, were committed by 13 different killers for 13 seperate 'motivations'?
Of course E. Short was the only victim cut in half, but then she was the only victim the killer kept for a long length of time. Clearly he had to cut the body in two to remove it from his apt. without being noticed, perhaps in 2 suitcases, or 2 laundry bags (he could not have had a house or he could have taken the body out whole, rather than making it smaller), but otherwise her case is completely consistent with the series, and what about the reference to E. Short written on the dead body of the next victim, even more 'proving' a link?
Rasmussen? yeah I"ve read his stuff.....he links together the Cleveland 'torso murders' of the 1930's in Cleveland where someone was chopping up and burning male hobo's in a skid row, with a 1940's sex killing in Chicago where a home invader broke in a raped and murdered a female victim, and wrote up the room with lipstick, to another 1940's Chicago case of a little girl a victim of a for profit kidnapping, that was not returned, but found dead chopped up in parts in storm sewers with the Elizabeth Short abduction-rape-murder, and vivisection in LA a few years later. Where's the similarities??? Male hobo victims Cleveland, 1 sex killing Chicago years later, 1 kidnapping killing Chicago, and then the abduction sex killing of E. Short way out in LA. Different victims, different type of crimes in different locations spanning 14 years and 2500 miles.IMO not even possible.

[Mae West]

In all fairness the cleveland torso killer did kill women as well I think it is a leep to think it was the same person! My dad and I used to talk about the BD and we think a mortury worker may have killed her! However the movie was a joke (the black dahila movie) If she was killed in the hollywood hills why move her?? Up there no one would have found her! The Doctor never made since to me unless it was his Greman lover. The main thing is her murder will never be solved since the crime scene was so tainted in that everyone who wanted to walked all thru the place! I am going to buy this book as I have bought every other book on the subject. So far severed is the best one I agree.

[sadie1263]

I watched the Black Dahlia movie this weekend. I had really been interested to see it because the case has always fascinated me.

It was horrible. I can say that it was filmed beautifully. But, it came to a point where we were laughing at the acting (or over acting). I didn't understand the story, and the ending where they tried to wrap everything together (in about 5 mins) was laughable and unbelievable. It was barely about the Black Dahlia.

I'll look into the book (Severed).

[watson]

To all new to the Black Dahlia case.......
I guess I missed some posts from people around the xmas break about what to read and source material for real Black Dahlia case.
We should all be thankful for Hollywood movie makers, and many fiction authors who do movies and books on real life, unsolved cases because without them these cases would have been forgotten over time. BUT for real case info, forget the recent Black Dahlia movie (I heard the movie plot was confusing too) and a lot of books, there're works of total fiction, 'based' (often barely at all) on the true story.
I'd recommend the retired head of the US governments FBI profiling dept. John Douglas's book.....The Cases That Haunt Us.... for a good concise (if short) primer on the case in the books section 'Black Dahlia'), don't buy it (unless you want to), it's been out for some time (c.1995-99) so your library probably has it. (P.S. if you want to know real crime study, this guys several books are a must).
2nd I'd agree with Tober, John Gilmore's book has been considered 'definitive' on the case. Gilmore grew up in Hollywood in the 1950's, his mother was an actress, his father an LA detective, he claims special access to LA police files, and making a hobby of the case, and published his book 1994.
I'd say just remember though, Gilmore is a for profit author, and things he says in his book that are not 'fact' may not be true.
3rd I'd look at Steve Hodel's book (Black Dahlia Avenger 1998-2000) 'NOT' for his premise, that his rich daddy who dumped him and his mother, (when Steve was a kid) did it, but for what 'case facts' can be strained from the book.
4th is the internet, there is LOT'S of stuff, some good, some bad, but the intetrnet is for everything........
There's 1 guy who does a neat thing with codes, and letters from the real Black Dahlia's letters to police (as well as some that aren't real). It's as real as space aliens did it, but it is interesting. Just google 'Black Dahlia codes'.
There is internet author/poster Rasmmusin as above and his theories.
There is Crime Library (here).
Court TV...
and
Smoking Gun which have useful case facts.
Happy reading.

[walton]

After reading the thread about BD I picked up the movie this last weekend.

I have to say I was a bit confused as to what was going on towards the end of the movie. I was sure there was a point in there somewhere but I just wasn't getting it. I'd see it again just to find out what it was I missed.

[packy]

Seems like a lot of people didn't care for the movie. I didn't see it, but did see the old made-for-tv movie. It was okay.

Couldn't fine the Black Dahlia codes. I kept getting gamers cheatsheets or something. Can anyone find a link to the codes? TIA

[packy]

I read an article about Jean Spangler mentioned in Watson's post in the Chicago Tribune, Oct. 1949. According to the article she had written a note to a prominent actor and mentioned she couldn't take it anymore and was going to see Dr. Scott.

Is there much information about a Dr. Scott?

[cherry]

I have always been fascinated by the black dahlia. Its one of the most infamous crimes in history. I recently went on a website about the dahlia and it had alot of info on the the murder and what each message meant. It also went in to detial about howf shef was murdered. Its a very intersting website.

http://blackdahliasolution.org/index.htm

hope it works

[margiej]

I have always been fascinated by the black dahlia. Its one of the most infamous crimes in history. I recently went on a website about the dahlia and it had alot of info on the the murder and what each message meant. It also went in to detial about howf shef was murdered. Its a very intersting website.

http://blackdahliasolution.org/index.htm

hope it works

The link works. Thank you.

[januaap]

I have read the story of a the Black Dahlia and its definitely one of the most mysterious unsolved crimes, but so was the mad butcher of Kingsbury. He was mentioned in the story Beth shorts murder was identical to the Kingsbury murders. I wonder if he was the culpret, after he went into the v.A hospital the murders stoped but there was nothing ever stopping him from leaving the hospital. I did not see the Black Dahlia movie only because those moves always seem to lack something. I plan on gettting the book as well as the book on the mad butcher.
My favorit stories on crime Liberary are Mad butcher of Kingbury and the story of Carl Pazram. I true pycopath, this guy was a product of his envoriment. His crimes were hurific, but his life was hell. A part of me felt sorry for this guy the world treated him like gargabe, he was raped and beaten so many times in his life, never treated with any kindness, no wonder he hated the human race. I feel its one of the most interesting storie I have ever read.