The Life and Times of John Karr [Archive] - Crime Library Message Boards

watson

08-17-2006, 09:11 PM

Does anyone have any info to say that John Karr is anything more than a delusional case groupie arrested by Mary Lacy the new and apparently not experienced Bolder DA, in what might prove to be the biggest prosecutorial mistake of all time?
It's still early, 48 hours after this lead broke, but everything I've seen says this guy is nothing more than a case groupie, who has been writing Mike Tracey (producer of the 'an intruder did it' JonBenet tv programs from 2002 on), Patricia Ramsey, Lou Smit, and other members of 'team Ramsey' for 4 years.
So far Lacy and CO authorities have not breathed 1 shred of corroberating evidence to back up this guys confession. Nothing placing him in CO on xmas day 1996, nothing on how he targeted the Ramseys house, nothing on how he knew Jonbenet, nothing on why he targeted her. So far even the guys own statements seem ridiculous and false. As, when asked for details of the crime he says...............'It would take several hours to describe that (that's as long as it took to committ the whole crime).....it's a very involved series of events' (the real BTK killer was able to describe in detail everyone of his 'kills' this guy can't even begin to describe one?). Also his 'confession' seems suspect because......he doesn't say 'I killed her'.......... but..'I was present at her death'.......... who talks like that about their victim that they purposely killed with a slip knot noose and a crushing blow to the head? It doesn't sound like a real criminal confession.
Like I said it's still early, and it's nearly impossible to believe that Mary Lacy or anyone in public life would go out on a limb on such a case, if they did not have the case sewn up, but so far it seems to be happening. So far this seems like the fake and false arrest of the Walmart cell phone buyers in Michigan. I really hope Mary Lacy has more than this because so far she has nothing but a loser nut saying...'I did it'.

The R

08-17-2006, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by Hotwater
It appears as though the confirmation of John Mark Karr as a reasonable suspect in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey is still up in the air.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0806/1703_ramsey_arrest_john_karr.html

I checked it out already on the Internet and I couldn't find any evidence that ties him to the case. Curiouser and curiouser...

--Hh20

Yep...

My first reaction to the arrest was "Thank God they got him"........now I think he isn't the right person and is one of those psychos that confesses to something he didn't do. Whan I saw hin in the news conference my gut feeling was that something wasn't right....seems he just was looking for the TV cameras too much. Hope I'm wrong and he is the guy but it ain't lookin good.

R

bred

08-17-2006, 09:48 PM

If JMK had truly studied her case, written atleast one paper, and discussed it through email for 4 years...why would he throw in the "false facts" that he drugged and molested her? I'm sure not liking what I'm hearing on Greta. Wack-job.

elroh6

08-17-2006, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by bred
If JMK had truly studied her case, written atleast one paper, and discussed it through email for 4 years...why would he throw in the "false facts" that he drugged and molested her? I'm sure not liking what I'm hearing on Greta. Wack-job. I'm so glad you mentioned that. I've been waiting all day to hear someone ask that question? Either he didn't do the extensive research, and is just saying what he thinks might have happened, or he didn't do the research, and just wants attention for whatever reason, or he did extensive research, wants attention, but doesn't want to be convicted now that he's in custody, so he's dileberately saying things he knows are incorrect...these suppositions assume that he didn't do it. OR, he DID do it and knows everything, and hopes that by saying things inconsistent with what LE knows to be true, he won't be prosecuted. Of course, if he did do it, his inconsistent statements won't negate a DNA or handwriting match or put him in a different location. BTW, I was flipping between Greta and Dan during that hour, but just saw Greta on O'Reilly's re-play. She actually said that if the DA doesn't have more than what we know, then it should be rethought who should lead the investigation.

Pennibelle

08-17-2006, 10:34 PM

Let's all just 'chill'. Time will tell.

peachdaquari

08-18-2006, 12:56 AM

I didnt read your whole long post but, I think he is too, I think he is maybe fantasizing that he killed her...sick sob

Lili007

08-18-2006, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin
to set himself up for an insanity defense?

Or just to get out of Thailand... as it has been suggested.

Too early to tell, IMO, but from what I've read, he has made some statements which appear to be inconsistent with the original reports.

One in particular which struck me as suspect was where he said he picked JB up from school and took her to her parents' house basement. But in her statements, JB's mother says she tucked her in that night and prayed with her. So who is lying?

I'm thinking Karr is, because if JonBenet's parents did not see her or tucked her in that night, surely they would have been frantic with worry about where she was and would have called LE.

JMO
Lili

TuscanDreams

08-18-2006, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by peachdaquari
I didnt read your whole long post but, I think he is too, I think he is maybe fantasizing that he killed her...sick sob

Like I mentioned, I'm not closed off to the idea that an intruder could have killed JonBenet Ramsey.

I just don't believe THIS guy was the intruder. Nothing fits, other than Michael Tracey, Professor of Colorado, has a bias in this case and turned him in.

nuisanceposter

08-18-2006, 08:36 AM

There was no school on Christmas Day in Boulder. JonBenet spent the day at her home with her parents and brother, and later on in the evening they went over to the White's house for a Christmas Party. They didn't come back home until about 8 or 9 pm.

There is no way Karr picked JonBenet up from school when there was no school. It is also completely unlikely that she would allow him to pick her up, not knowing who he is, and unlikely that if he did pick her up that her brother and parents would not notice that she didn't return home from school on time.

Karr said he took her to her parents basement when he picked her up. I have to wonder why a man who wants to kidnap a child wouldn't have a place to take her set up already and would risk being seen or caught by taking the child to her own house. Weren't her parents or brother going to be in the home as well at some point that day, especially considering it was Christmas Day and there was no school or work?

Not to mention the toxicology report and autopsy show no signs of JonBenet having been drugged or raped as Karr claims.

Karr's ex-wife, who divorced him when he was charged with kiddie porn in 2001 and has no reason to lie for him, claims he spent every Christmas with her from 1989 - 2000, including 1996 when JonBenet was killed. She said he was with her and their children that year and not in Boulder at all.

Karr's story does not fit the known version of events. He's not telling the truth.

floridasweet5

08-18-2006, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by The R

Yep...

My first reaction to the arrest was "Thank God they got him"........now I think he isn't the right person and is one of those psychos that confesses to something he didn't do. Whan I saw hin in the news conference my gut feeling was that something wasn't right....seems he just was looking for the TV cameras too much. Hope I'm wrong and he is the guy but it ain't lookin good.

R

Yep, me too. I believe he is a groupie that just wants the media limelight.
I hope I'm wrong also............:shrug:
If not, what a sicko to do this to the family. They have gone through enough. :rose: for Jon Benet

RogerV

08-18-2006, 12:04 PM

This certainly isn't the first time someone has fallen in love with someone who is already dead, though this time is a little different in that the living party is most likely a pedophile. Kerr has said that he loved JBR I think at least twice. Whatever his motive for telling his bizarre story, he's definitely a loose canon, and a school is the last place he should be.

As for all the criticism that is being heaped on the DA and other authorites in Colorado, remember that they have an obligation to follow ALL leads. It was Kerr himself who upset the investigation by going public with his story. At this point the authorities really have no choice but to bring him back the the US for questioning and DNA testing, even if they've already decided he couldn't possibly be the murderer.

apskad

08-18-2006, 03:57 PM

Even if JMK isn't factually responsible for JBR's murder (and a DNA comparison with the scrapings found under JBR's fingernails should be conclusive of that), it's still positive that Karr's employment as a second-grade school teacher has ended. He clearly has an unhealthy obsession with young girls and an obsession with famous murder cases. Isn't it plausible that maybe he was on a downward psychological spiral that might have ended in murder or physical violence to a youngster? Maybe it's good that he will never be anonymous again.
--Apskad

JM 417

08-18-2006, 06:45 PM

yes he is!
shame on the media for blowing this out of proportion.
i met hundreds like him during our trial (mcmartin)

a parent
JM

bred

08-18-2006, 09:19 PM

Whoa! We're all guilty of researching various cases for various reasons. Hopefully the difference is that we are not obsessive. I've heard 2 mentions about the bear found in JBR's room... could someone please explain more thoroughly?

athy

08-19-2006, 02:06 AM

i don't know if this guy is guilty or not but i do think its possible its a calculated confession.

many people that do this type of crime feel the need to confess, to get it off their chest eventually. by confessing he's done that. its not to get him out of prison in Thailand as some have said. the ONLY reason he was in jail in Thailand was because our LE asked them to detain him until they got there because of the charges in california and because of jon benet. anyway, in answers about the inconsistancies...if this is a calculated confession, giving inconsistancies helps to sent it up for reasonable doubt if it goes to court.

this is a little side note.... a few months back i was reading in and MSN community that has a chatroom attached to it that they had someone came into the chat room and started talking about jon benet. started giving them details that they didn't know about. they didn't know if this guy was a crackpot or anything but they did get in touch with LE in colorado just in case. from what i understand they sent a copy of the conversation and the guys IP addy to the LE. this was back around february i believe. i'd have to go back to check on the date. but what i found strange was the guy said the killer had written to Patsy. then i saw on the news where Karr said he contacted Patsy (at least he thought it was Patsy but apparently it was LE instead). it sorta gave me chills.

mylipsaresealed

08-19-2006, 05:55 AM

I am wondering if his calculated responses are for his own benefit. For someone as well versed with the aspects of this crime as it appears Karr is to state facts that he KNOWS are inconsistant with autopsy reports and sequence of events just doesn't add up. If he is guilty, he is purposely distancing himself from the actual act of killing JBR. I do think he is at the very least a pedophile and a very mentally disturbed man. JMO

Lili007

08-19-2006, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
There was no school on Christmas Day in Boulder. JonBenet spent the day at her home with her parents and brother, and later on in the evening they went over to the White's house for a Christmas Party. They didn't come back home until about 8 or 9 pm.

There is no way Karr picked JonBenet up from school when there was no school. It is also completely unlikely that she would allow him to pick her up, not knowing who he is, and unlikely that if he did pick her up that her brother and parents would not notice that she didn't return home from school on time.

Karr said he took her to her parents basement when he picked her up. I have to wonder why a man who wants to kidnap a child wouldn't have a place to take her set up already and would risk being seen or caught by taking the child to her own house. Weren't her parents or brother going to be in the home as well at some point that day, especially considering it was Christmas Day and there was no school or work?

Not to mention the toxicology report and autopsy show no signs of JonBenet having been drugged or raped as Karr claims.

Karr's ex-wife, who divorced him when he was charged with kiddie porn in 2001 and has no reason to lie for him, claims he spent every Christmas with her from 1989 - 2000, including 1996 when JonBenet was killed. She said he was with her and their children that year and not in Boulder at all.

Karr's story does not fit the known version of events. He's not telling the truth.

An excellent summary of the discrepancies we've heard so far, buisanceposter. I think it speaks volumes. I agree with you about him, not telling the truth, but I can't quite work it out why he confessed in the first place.

Unless, of course, he wanted out of Thailand (although apparently he wasn't under arrest in Thailand - ? - but just detained at the request of US authorities), or unless he one of those unfortunately many who confess for the sake of it, for some 'thrill' or for other reasons of their own, obscure as they may be to you and I (and most people, IMO).

His story just doesn't seem to 'hold' together, but then I have no idea what else LE have to link him to JonBenet and her murder, so all of this is speculation and questions I have based on what I've heard and read so far.

One thing remains true, regardless of who took her young life so mercilessly, and why - they need to be brought to justice and their punishment needs to fit the crime.

But that's JMO,
Lili

Lili007

08-19-2006, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by athy
i don't know if this guy is guilty or not but i do think its possible its a calculated confession.

many people that do this type of crime feel the need to confess, to get it off their chest eventually. by confessing he's done that.

Are you suggesting he may have confessed because he committed 'this sort of crime' against someone else, so he fulfilled his need to get it off his chest by confessing to JonBenet's murder instead, as some sort of "atonement"?

An interesting idea indeed. But if that's the case, why not confess to the original crime?

Or maybe I just misunderstood your meaning.

its not to get him out of prison in Thailand as some have said. the ONLY reason he was in jail in Thailand was because our LE asked them to detain him until they got there because of the charges in california and because of jon benet.

Thanks for clarifying that.

anyway, in answers about the inconsistancies...if this is a calculated confession, giving inconsistancies helps to sent it up for reasonable doubt if it goes to court.

Now there would be a clever move. But I still don't see the reason for confessing in the first place, if that is the case. Unless, as before, he's some sort of macademia who hasn't got anything better to do and wanted a few days of fame or infamy to brighten up his dull life. Or maybe it was just the ultimate fantasy of a pedophile's sick mind. Yick! :mad:

this is a little side note.... a few months back i was reading in and MSN community that has a chatroom attached to it that they had someone came into the chat room and started talking about jon benet. started giving them details that they didn't know about. they didn't know if this guy was a crackpot or anything but they did get in touch with LE in colorado just in case. from what i understand they sent a copy of the conversation and the guys IP addy to the LE. this was back around february i believe. i'd have to go back to check on the date. but what i found strange was the guy said the killer had written to Patsy. then i saw on the news where Karr said he contacted Patsy (at least he thought it was Patsy but apparently it was LE instead). it sorta gave me chills.

Then there's the other 'theory' doing the rounds... that Karr might have known or even helped the 'real killer', without actually having done it himself.

Too soon - much more needs to be corroborated or eliminated. IMO, the discrepancies between his statement and known, established facts are the problem.

JMO,
Lili

polli

08-19-2006, 07:42 AM

He most likely appares as a case groupie, but but ... his former wife's testemony is kind of stereotype answer, "...I don't remember him not being there...' or somthing like that. And is this true? Bad Politics (http://www.kbcafe.com/politics/?guid=20060816210025) this is new to me, that a DNA match already has bin preformed.

Lili007

08-19-2006, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by mylipsaresealed
I am wondering if his calculated responses are for his own benefit. For someone as well versed with the aspects of this crime as it appears Karr is to state facts that he KNOWS are inconsistant with autopsy reports and sequence of events just doesn't add up. If he is guilty, he is purposely distancing himself from the actual act of killing JBR. I do think he is at the very least a pedophile and a very mentally disturbed man. JMO

Yes, but as I've just said in another post, why confess at all if he wants to muddy the water with falsehoods? I mean, he wouldn't need to muddy the water if he were in the desert, because there's no water to muddy.

ie, no confession = no need for subterfuge to contradict said confession. :shrug:

I agree about him being a very disturbed man, as well as a sick pedophile. Maybe both had a lot more to do with his "confession" than the actual crime he confessed to. ;)

JMO,
Lili

elroh6

08-19-2006, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by athy
i don't know if this guy is guilty or not but i do think its possible its a calculated confession.

its not to get him out of prison in Thailand as some have said. the ONLY reason he was in jail in Thailand was because our LE asked them to detain him until they got there because of the charges in california and because of jon benet. anyway, in answers about the inconsistancies...if this is a calculated confession, giving inconsistancies helps to sent it up for reasonable doubt if it goes to court.

It seems that nobody gets this (the reason he was being detained, and how he wouldn't be in a Thailand jail if it weren't for charges in the states). Even the "experts" are still perpetuating this faulty theory. I hear it over and over and get so frustrated because nobody corrects them. I agree with everything you said, athy.

nuisanceposter

08-19-2006, 08:23 AM

Patsy Ramsey said she didn't recognize the white bear, and a woman from a pageant JonBenet had been in recognized it and identified it as coming from that pageant.

tpop

08-19-2006, 08:28 AM

I know that a lot can change depending upon new evidence that is discovered and disclosed, but so far it seems that this guy has an overactive fantasy life. It's possible that he actually believes these fantasies as being true. He may not have killed her, but after obsessing over her and the case for some time he now thinks he did b/c he cannot separate fantasy from reality.

About his ex-wife's comments that he was home on that Christmas (which was in Alabama, correct? That's a long way from Colorado), I wonder if there is anyone else who could vouch for that. What about their children? I'm not sure how old they were at that time. Other family members that may have been present? Any photographs? I thought most people took pictures at Christmas, especially if they had children. Has anyone checked flight records to see if he indeed took a flight to Colorado? To take that trip by car would take quite some time, and it would be unlikely that he could do that fast enough to sneak away and then return home without his wife knowing. I also realize that she could be lying to protect him.

I'm also interested in the handwriting analysis, especially since some of the experts were able to rule out everyone they studied with the exception of Patsy.

I read one report that indicated he knew specific information about the Ramsey home, such as seeing a check stub on Mr. Ramsey's desk for $118,000. Well, after that was made public that he had a bonus for that amount, one could guess that he may have a check stub for it, and that it would likely be on his desk. Another thing was details about the staircase and basement. I've seen pictures of both areas of their home online, and perhaps could have made the same obversations myself. So, unless I am missing something, these "obversations" are not very convincing.

So far I am not convinced that he did this, so I'm waiting to see what develops next.

And if he really did kill her, how does one accidentally beat and strangle somebody to death?

Whether or not he did this, he is a SICK PUPPY.

nuisanceposter

08-19-2006, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by TuscanDreams

Like I mentioned, I'm not closed off to the idea that an intruder could have killed JonBenet Ramsey.

I just don't believe THIS guy was the intruder. Nothing fits, other than Michael Tracey, Professor of Colorado, has a bias in this case and turned him in.

I agree with all of this. Tracey is well-known to be Ramsey biased and has put out two documentaries in the past four years fingering two other guys as the killer, now he's claiming this guy is the one - and it doesn't look like much investigation went into grabbing this guy Karr. DA Lacy hasn't even interviewed his ex-wife, who claims he was with her that Christmas. No one has any solid evidence Karr was ever in Colorado. I can't wait to see how the DNA test turns out.

bred

08-19-2006, 09:01 AM

Thank you. Now hopefully the media will drop the bear discussions.

Claudia

08-19-2006, 09:23 AM

Inside Edition just reported last night that nobody knew where the bear came from....:rolleyes:

cougermom

08-19-2006, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
Patsy Ramsey said she didn't recognize the white bear, and a woman from a pageant JonBenet had been in recognized it and identified it as coming from that pageant. Could you please give a link with this info? TYIA.....cougermom

cougermom

08-19-2006, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by GabrielleAus
I will ALWAYS be of the solid conviction that JBR's killer has already been dealt with by the highest power of all.This sicko willno longer have access to young girls & all left is for JR to pay for his part in the crime. Burn Patsy Burn.
GabrielleAus
Member

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: melb. vic. aust.
Posts: 1
NOW,WOULD YOU BE SEEKING ATTENTION? First POST FOR YOU!!!!! I WOULD VENTURE TO SAY YOU ARE AS SICK AS JOHN kARR HIMSELF. I hope NO ONE buys into your game.....GOOD BYE!!!!!CM:rolleyes:

denisevans2003

08-19-2006, 11:36 AM

I agree, i do not think this guy is the killer he said he drugged her but there were no drugs in the toxicology report hello?????

robiss

08-19-2006, 12:32 PM

>>no drugs in the toxicology report

is this report public..??

I believe the "drug" Karr mentioned was chloroform... this is a highly volitile chemical, and when used as an INHALENT... it may yield very low blood levels. Without knowing more specifics... *NO* drugs may be an extreme statement.

robiss

08-19-2006, 01:07 PM

what little news re:Lara Karr, I found:

Karr's ex-wife, Lara Karr, told KGO-TV in California that she was with her former husband in Alabama at the time of JonBenet's killing and she does not believe her former husband was involved in the homicide.

She said her ex-husband spent a lot of time studying the cases of Ramsey and Polly Klaas, who was abducted from her Petaluma, Calif., home and slain in 1993.

A search of public records indicates that a John M. Karr and a Lara Karr shared a Petaluma address as recently as 2001, but The AP could not independently confirm that they are the suspect and the woman identified by the television station.

so...........

Lara would have been a teenager at the time of the Colorado murder... she provides an alibi for JMK; but who can vouch for HER at the time..??... investigators have said there is a possibility that TWO people did the deed... the ransom note was profiled more toward a female, than a male. I sure would like to compare LK handwriting with the ransom note..!!... it certainly would help explain a few things... including the SBTC signature that corresponds with JMK's high school reference to "Shall be the Conqueror".... not the physical evidence that everybody is looking for... but sure is overwhemingly circumstantial..!!

watson

08-19-2006, 03:15 PM

I'm glad to see a lot of suport for the idea that this guy is just delusional and didn't really do it. From what I've read the last 2 days, a lot of the legal and law enforcement community thinks so too. I guess though, I should amend my original post to say the guy is a 'pediophile' case groupie. Like someone said above, he is one sick SOB, but that and a groupie fantasy life doesn't make him the killer. I really hope Mary Lacy has more than what she has so far revealed.

watson

08-19-2006, 03:37 PM

Yo Robiss,
I can give you some input on this one. Lara would have to be so far lying twice if this guy actually did it. Once when she gave him the alibi for Xmas 1996 as you say, AND when she says 'he studied the case'.....why would the real murderer have to 'study' the case? If he did it, he would in fact know more about the case than anyone else living in the world, he would not have to study it.
I also for one see no connection between the S.B.T.C. in the ransom script or letter and this guys words in a yearbook 'shall be the cnqueror'. The words in the yearbook are not capitalized, do not stand out in any way, and are taken out of mid sentance and out of context. It's like going to any printed book and finding 4 words in a row that start with those letters.
Until new Bolder DA Mary Lacy shows us, the world,and the legal and law enforcement community more (if she has anything), I'll stick with the prior interpretation............S.B.T.C. stands for, most likely John Ramsey's navy service at Subic Bay Philippnes....Subic Bay Training Center or Subic Bay Technical Center.

robiss

08-19-2006, 05:19 PM

>>Lara would have to be so far lying

yup... if you help out with a murder, you would do some major lying, too. Charles Manson ring a bell..??... he coerced young girls into violent murder... "Helter Skelter"

I'm just trying to consider ALL possibilities... UNLIKE the Boulder cops did..!!

>>are taken out of mid sentance

These weren't random words together... it's what he SIGNED the yearbook.!! Go to CNN, & read the clip on this...they are already working on this...it's been a major mystery since day 1... could be part of JMK's delusion.

FYI....Acronym Definition
SBTC Ministry of Small Business, Tourism, and Culture (Canada)
SBTC Saved By the Cross
SBTC Small Business Technology Coalition
SBTC Stream-Based Trace Compression

robiss

08-19-2006, 05:34 PM

this is a followup on Subic Bay [from another forum, & confirmed by several posts]:

"SBTC'' is a reference to the defunctional at the US naval base in the Philippines, where John Ramsey served from March 1968 through 1969.
Wrong! Subic Bay Naval Station is where he was.... there is no such place as "Subic Bay Training Center".. the acronym would be SBNS not SBTC.

TuscanDreams

08-19-2006, 07:12 PM

It is more than obvious that this guy needs to be put away. He is a dangerous pedophile.

That doesn't mean he killed JonBenet. It means he needs to be locked up and made to swallow the key.

I've looked and looked at news stories and can't find anything to show HOW he's connected to this case other than Michael Tracey.

nuisanceposter

08-19-2006, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by TuscanDreams
It is more than obvious that this guy needs to be put away. He is a dangerous pedophile.

That doesn't mean he killed JonBenet. It means he needs to be locked up and made to swallow the key.

I've looked and looked at news stories and can't find anything to show HOW he's connected to this case other than Michael Tracey.

I'm in complete agreement with everything you've said. The idea that this man was accepted in any teaching position is very disturbing.

RogerV

08-19-2006, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by tpop
Whether or not he did this, he is a SICK PUPPY.

Boy, do you ever have THAT right. It occurs to me that no matter WHAT he's charged with, he will not be safe in the general jail/prison population. Child molesters/murderers are at the very bottom of prison society and he's going to have to be put in protective custody from the word go.

Helping Hand

08-19-2006, 09:41 PM

Crime Library experts listy the following in their Criminal Mind Section about what a Pedophile looks like. Here's an excerp and the link - fits Karr to a T (a little scary huh?):

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/psychology/pedophiles/7.html

Pedophile Characteristics

A pedophile will usually exhibit a series of personality characteristics that are common in this type of offender. It is important to understand that these characteristics alone do not conclusively determine that a person is a pedophile. But if these indicators, combined with a pattern of behavior that arouses suspicion, are present then there may be enough probable cause to believe that the person is a pedophile.

He carries on what can be termed “a special relationship” with a wife. Often pedophiles have failed marriages due to their sexual interests but remain in the marriage to mask their true intentions. Sadly, the wife sometimes knows about her husband’s preference, but prefers to keep quiet to avoid social stigma and disgrace.
He displays a fascination or unusual interest in children. If an adult has an inordinate amount of interest in pre-pubescent children, it doesn’t confirm he is a pedophile, but it should at least arouse suspicion.
He makes frequent references to children in exalted or exaggerated terms such as “pure,” “innocent,” ”God sent,” “blissful” and other descriptive labels that seem inappropriate and excessive. Remember that a pedophile cannot help the way he behaves and therefore will inadvertently reveal aspects about himself during speech.
He has hobbies or interests that commonly belong in the realm of a child’s world such as toy collecting, building models of cars or planes. His home or room is decorated in a child’s theme. And often, that theme will reflect the age bracket of his preferred victim.
He is over 30 years of age, single and has few or no friends his own age. He may also have frequent and unexplained changes of residence. He may be unable or unwilling to discuss why he lost his last job. He may have a military discharge that he cannot explain and a past that he can not easily talk about.
He has systematic and prolonged access to children. Pedophiles, because of the wide age disparity between themselves and their victims, cannot just hang around children. The pedophile has to find a way to legitimize his contact with kids. He usually accomplishes this by obtaining employment in a field where he is forced to deal with children on a daily basis. Jobs like schoolteachers, bus drivers, camp counselors, photographers and sports coaching(14) serve their needs perfectly. They will always volunteer for activities in which they are left alone with children with no parental supervision (Lanning, p. 19).

athy

08-19-2006, 09:44 PM

Are you suggesting he may have confessed because he committed 'this sort of crime' against someone else, so he fulfilled his need to get it off his chest by confessing to JonBenet's murder instead, as some sort of "atonement"?

i'm saying perhaps if he did this crime, he needs to confess to get it off his chest....but he also doesn't want to actually "pay" for the crime.

Lili007

08-20-2006, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by athy

i'm saying perhaps if he did this crime, he needs to confess to get it off his chest....but he also doesn't want to actually "pay" for the crime.

There are other avenues for making a "confession", if that's all he wants/needs. Broadcasting it to the world is not one of them, if he actually doesn't want to pay for it. He could have found a priest of ANY persuasion, a tree, or even another sick pedophile 'buddy'. But instead, he had to confess to the whole world, on camera. And then interject some doubt to make sure he's not convicted?

Seems unlikely to me. IMO, he wants his 15' and the notoriety, for however long it lasts. He probably fantasized so much about poor JonBenet that his ultimate fantasy is that he 'loved her' and she died 'accidentally' and 'he was with her when she died'. Sort of a sick version of Romeo and Juliet. In his mind. And I think it's ALL in his mind.

He didn't pick her up from school, she wasn't in school. He didn't take her to her parents' basement, she was with her parents at that time. He wasn't even anywhere near Boulder at the time, according to his wife - and by all accounts she has no reason to lie for him.

IMO, he belongs in an institution for people who fancy and marry 13-year-olds, fantasize about girls under 10 and profess to 'love' 6-year-olds who are killed 'by accident' while he's holding their hand, or some such nonsense, and whom they've probably never met except on TV or on the street.

Bogus is written all over it. The guy may even have convinced himself that it's true, but that just makes him delusional, not truthful.

Anyway, that's just what I think based on what I've heard and read, until I have a reason to change my opinion.

JMO,
Lili

LindaA

08-20-2006, 07:08 AM

The reporters are now saying that he did not make those statements about drugging JBR or about picking her up from school.

I have my doubts about his being the man, but I wonder why so many people here feel that the DA has revealed all she knows when she clearly stated she has not. How can so many people be so sure who did or did not commit this crime?

TuscanDreams

08-20-2006, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by T.O Jays
You have to committ a crime to face charges on a crime. IMO

He's committed a crime in CA or he wouldn't have a warrant for his arrest.

As to the one he supposedly committed in Boulder- he didn't.

watson

08-20-2006, 01:28 PM

Now that the Ramsey case is back as top news, you hear a lot about the DNA LE was able to come up with from the victim. As I understand it however, and I'm sure people will correct me if I'm wrong, this DNA is far from certain. The facts on the DNA.......DNA was recovered from under the victims fingernails and from the blood spots in the underware. The report of the analysis of this DNA reads (the report was shown on a program of 'The Invitigators' Court TV)...the major component of the DNA recovered belongs to the victim herself JonBenet Ramsey, the minor component if it was contributed by one individual belongs to a white male, which if it was contributed by 1 individual, the Ramsey family would be excluded as contributors...In other words, almost all the DNA found was from JB herself. There was minor foreign DNA found amongest hers that could have come from anywhere and from multiple people, but if it did come from 1 individual he would be a white male, and not of the Ramsey family. The police lab of CO tried to sequence this DNA from the blood spot but there was just not enough. Years later and in the last 4 years using new techniques the lab enhanced this minor component or foreign DNA to the point where they got 10 of the required 13 markers for a full DNA profile. This 'partial profile was then put into the DNA Database CODICE and no match has yet been found. I've never heard of the DNA contamination from the nails being sequenced at all.
So, it seems LE has a partial possible DNA profile of the criminal that rules out male Ramsey's....or equally possible.... just DNA contamination from several sources and unrelated people not connected to the crime, that does not rule out male Ramsey's.
My info comes from the 'Investigators' documentary, and from the recent 'JonBenet A Cold Case 2006' both Court TV.

watson

08-20-2006, 01:53 PM

I certainly agree this guy is a pedophile, no doubt in the world. I would guess he's also a transvestite. It would be hard to find a more reptillian icky suspect. Does he fit the profile of a pedophile? You bet.
But the real question is....does he fit the profile of a mission oriented kidnapper for profit and killer.....which is what the JB case is about assuming a stranger did it...isn't it?

nuisanceposter

08-20-2006, 02:16 PM

Yes.

Some questions I have -

How did he get to Boulder to abduct JonBenet - plane, car, train, what? If he travelled by other than car, how did he get around while he was in Boulder?

Are there any credit card receipts, car rentals, gas station purchases, or eyewitnesses, anything, anyone, that can place him in Boulder during Christmas of 1996?

How did he get in and out of the house, and how did he know his way around?

How did he get JonBenet to eat the pineapple, and why did he wait long enough for it to digest as much as it did before he killed her?

If he went to abduct JB, he had to have somewhere to go with her once he got her...where?

When did he write the note, and why did he? Why not bring his own?

Why leave the ransom note if he didn't even take JB with him?

Why would he write that long note and make those references to business and need for revenge against JR if, by his own admission, he was there because he was in love with JonBenet? The note claims the reason for the kidnapping is for the ransom.

Pretty Leaf

08-21-2006, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by GabrielleAus

snipped

Burn Patsy Burn.

This is disgusting,:flamemad:

rovaan

08-21-2006, 12:36 PM

watson

08-21-2006, 12:50 PM

I have to agree NP and Victims feel there all great questions....and it doesn't look like we'll be hearing any answers to them soon. From what I've read today, articles in both the Chicago tribune and the Denver Post have confirmed that Mary Lacy did 'no' investigation of Karr prior to his arrest......to see if he was ever even in CO, even he even could have done the crime, if he matched ANY evidence.....incredible isn't it. As I read it the papers confirmed this by checking with the FBI, the CO state police, authorities where Karr used to live and people in his back ground, none had ever been contacted about Karr before his arrest. She's just starting NOW to see if he could've even done the crime, but she's charging him with murder....

Lili007

08-21-2006, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by rovaan

First, I agree Karr is not telling the truth. Why? I don't think we know yet.

I have wondered if an intruder could have entered the home while the Ramseys were at the White's home for the Christmas Party. It owuld give the intruder time to scope out the place, find information related to the bonus John Ramsey received, and write his lengthy ransom note without hurry. The intruder stays hidden in the basement(?) when the Ramseys return and waits for everyone to be sleeping before he makes his move. Perhaps he was dressed as Santa and coaxed JonBenet downstairs for a surprise. Just some thoughts. Have to admit Karr would make a lousy Santa.

rovaan

No kidding! (about the lousy Santa)

JMO,
Lili

Richard_Diamond

08-21-2006, 10:36 PM

I do not understanding why John Karr is so willing to return to the US and not fight to remain in Thailand. Dosn't he realize that he can face the death penalty if he is convicted of first degree murder? Most murderers try to avoid extradition to the US for a capital crime. Unless Mr. Karr didn't do it and is delusional.
In the past, murderers from the US who went to Canada try tooth and nail to avoid going back to the US. For example, Charles Ng, resisted going back to the US and went to the Supreme Court of Canada, which said it was ok to return Charles Ng to the US.

Richard_Diamond

08-21-2006, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter

I agree with all of this. Tracey is well-known to be Ramsey biased and has put out two documentaries in the past four years fingering two other guys as the killer, now he's claiming this guy is the one - and it doesn't look like much investigation went into grabbing this guy Karr. DA Lacy hasn't even interviewed his ex-wife, who claims he was with her that Christmas. No one has any solid evidence Karr was ever in Colorado. I can't wait to see how the DNA test turns out.

Mr. Tracey has produced documentaries that support the position that the Ramseys are innocent. He has a vested interest in seeing someone other than the Ramseys committed the crime.
If he can get Karr into a trial, regardless of whether he did it or not, it will vindicate both him and the Ramseys. Is it possible Mr. Tracey is trying to deflect attention from the Ramseys?

TuscanDreams

08-22-2006, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by T.O Jays
I must've missed the charges you speak of . On cnn they only referred to 5 misdemeanors .

I need to check, but if I remember correctly, he had charges in CA and jumped bond for them. Were those charges child porn related? Sorry, it's early and my brain is still frosty. :D

TuscanDreams

08-22-2006, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by Richard_Diamond
Mr. Tracey has produced documentaries that support the position that the Ramseys are innocent. He has a vested interest in seeing someone other than the Ramseys committed the crime.
If he can get Karr into a trial, regardless of whether he did it or not, it will vindicate both him and the Ramseys. Is it possible Mr. Tracey is trying to deflect attention from the Ramseys?

:beer: YES! Of course he wants to deflect attention away from the Ramsey's. Regardless of whether or not Karr is innocent or guilty, he has a vested financial interest in this case.

And, his spewing hatred about the American Justice System really speaks volumes.

curious mom

08-22-2006, 10:41 AM

Below is a copy of a couple of posts I found at another forum:http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID72/92.html

I wonder if LE ever looked for a connection to this pagaent and JBR's murder?
__________________________________________________

12. "RE: Date of August 11th"
In response to message #11

I wonder if he was in Atlanta and spotted JonBenet during the Sun Burst Talent Competition. Wouldn't have been hard to find out who and where the Ramsey family lived. Maybe he was stalking her from the pageants.

Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Evening2
Member since 7-7-03
08-20-06, 09:56 PM (EST)
_________________________________________________

13. "RE: Date of August 11th"
In response to message #12

Ashley, do you realize that:
Sun Burst Talent Competition

equals

SBTC ??

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

elroh6

08-22-2006, 11:01 AM

I'm pretty sure that SBTC has something to do with Tom Cruise. LOL, ( It was just so "there") Please don't smash me.

EDDIEisMINE

08-22-2006, 01:15 PM

Yes he is a sick pedophile but I think he is also the one who did this. It makes sense. He marrys young girls, is arrested for child porn, obsessed with her murder. How many pedophiles out there are obsessed with childrens murders? Not many. Most of them molest or murder children after they are released the first time, but, J Karr wasn't arrested again because he was never caught for what he did to JonBenet, so he became obsessed with her. I wonder how many other children he has done this too. I think he probably found a way to get away from the wife even if it were while she was sleeping. She may of never even knew he was gone. Who knows, maybe he drugged her up and she can't remember. You just never know about this stuff. Strange that she has no pictures of them during Christmas and they were married! And, so what if he were with them during Christmas? It was the day after Christmas, not Christmas. He could of took a plane or something. Who knows! These people find ways because they are not dumb, just evil.

EDDIEisMINE

08-22-2006, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by watson
Yo Robiss,
I can give you some input on this one. Lara would have to be so far lying twice if this guy actually did it. Once when she gave him the alibi for Xmas 1996 as you say, AND when she says 'he studied the case'.....why would the real murderer have to 'study' the case? If he did it, he would in fact know more about the case than anyone else living in the world, he would not have to study it.
I also for one see no connection between the S.B.T.C. in the ransom script or letter and this guys words in a yearbook 'shall be the cnqueror'. The words in the yearbook are not capitalized, do not stand out in any way, and are taken out of mid sentance and out of context. It's like going to any printed book and finding 4 words in a row that start with those letters.
Until new Bolder DA Mary Lacy shows us, the world,and the legal and law enforcement community more (if she has anything), I'll stick with the prior interpretation............S.B.T.C. stands for, most likely John Ramsey's navy service at Subic Bay Philippnes....Subic Bay Training Center or Subic Bay Technical Center. \

Maybe he gets off doing things, then, reading how wrong everyone is about it. Maybe he likes that!

athy

08-22-2006, 01:34 PM

still not sure if he's the guy or not but one question comes to mind

was he actually studying the case or was he checking out what info they had about the case and if it led to him?

nuisanceposter

08-22-2006, 03:27 PM

There was never a check stub sitting around with the amount of $118, 000 on it.

The police didn't even find out that was roughly John Ramsey's bonus amount until Ramsey's secretary mentioned it to them.

nuisanceposter

08-22-2006, 03:34 PM

The only evidence that Karr did this is his "confession". No one has ever proven that he was ever in Colorado, much less the Ramsey house.

How did he get there - plane, train, car? If it wasn't by car, how did he get around in Boulder?

Are there are car rental records, any cell phone bills, any gas station receipts, any credit card purchases that place him in Boulder during Christmas of 1996?

If he planning on kidnapping her, he had to have a place to take her - where?

How did he get in and out? How did he do it all without waking anyone up, or leaving any forensic evidence?

Why did he leave that ransom note? Why did he claim this was a revenge kidnapping?

Karr's story makes no sense at all. He said he picked her up from school - there was no school. He said he was at a party with the Rs - they've never heard of him. He said he hid in the room across the hall from JB's - there is no room across the hall.

I know everyone would like to find the killer, but let's not nail this guy if he wasn't the one.

I'm willing to bet the DNA will not match.

polli

08-22-2006, 05:52 PM

There are other things to, he sems to me as an obsessive controll freak, and I just cant belive him leaving her alone for any amount of time, of fear for her groing a brain and escaping, which she later did as soon as he vas in jail. But then again, there is a possebility, he can have sent her to Atlanta to his own folks, by air, bus train whatever, and then self taken the red Deloren or other car, he sold used cars at the time. I altso belive his lawyers, which say that he's absolutly not crazy. And capable has he shown him self to be, by taking two dauthers. He vas taped in 2001 in California before he vas arrested, there are houers of him spewing his guts about JonBenet. (http://abcnews.go.com/Video/guide?category=US&subcategory=jonbenet_subnav&id=2341625)

TuscanDreams

08-22-2006, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
The only evidence that Karr did this is his "confession". No one has ever proven that he was ever in Colorado, much less the Ramsey house.

How did he get there - plane, train, car? If it wasn't by car, how did he get around in Boulder?

Are there are car rental records, any cell phone bills, any gas station receipts, any credit card purchases that place him in Boulder during Christmas of 1996?

If he planning on kidnapping her, he had to have a place to take her - where?

How did he get in and out? How did he do it all without waking anyone up, or leaving any forensic evidence?

Why did he leave that ransom note? Why did he claim this was a revenge kidnapping?

Karr's story makes no sense at all. He said he picked her up from school - there was no school. He said he was at a party with the Rs - they've never heard of him. He said he hid in the room across the hall from JB's - there is no room across the hall.

I know everyone would like to find the killer, but let's not nail this guy if he wasn't the one.

I'm willing to bet the DNA will not match.

:beer: My money is with yours, that DNA won't match.

EDDIEisMINE

08-22-2006, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by athy
still not sure if he's the guy or not but one question comes to mind

was he actually studying the case or was he checking out what info they had about the case and if it led to him?

I think the latter of your statement is right on it.

EDDIEisMINE

08-22-2006, 09:37 PM

I agree something doesn't fit. Maybe he picked her up from school in his mind, lol. j/k. I think he planned this out for a long time. Pre meditated. I think he knew what he was doing and he knew how he would get away and what time he would get away from his family and do this in a timely manner so noone would notice, and he would be back home in bed by the time his wife awoke on the 26th. Scary but probable. Now the question is, did he killl anyone else?

I would say he probably has. And...I think the reason he didn't have a "place" to take her is he had to do this in a timely manner and their home was so big, why not just take her to the cellar? It worked didn't it?

Richard_Diamond

08-23-2006, 04:13 AM

Why is DA Lacy rushing headlong into charging Karr with first degree murder without checking his whereabouts in Dec., 1986.
Afterall, its been almost ten years and a few more weeks won't hurt. If the DA loses the case, and Karr is released, the prosecutors will look like fools again.
I doubt Karr did it but the prosecutors will try to build a circumstantial case against him and may succeed, even if there is no DNA Match. Remember, the DNA found is very poor quality.
BTW, if the profile of a Pedophile fits Karr to a T, you could say it also matches Michael Jackson, who is walking around free.

polli

08-23-2006, 11:56 AM

Now when more news is coming on who this guy is, you have to agree that this guy is a creadble suspect. But was he in Bolder at that time?

polli

08-23-2006, 12:18 PM

You have probably read this (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=2345711).

dandb729

08-23-2006, 12:47 PM

Has anyone heard any of the phone conversations allegedly between JMK & Wendy Hutchins from 2001? Showcased on Nancy Grace last night but I can't find the transscripts anywhere.

dandb729

08-23-2006, 02:20 PM

Apparently, my prior post was lacking too much so here is a transcript from last nights show and there are remarks about the audio tapes however it doesn't show them verbatim.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0608/22/ng.01.html

TuscanDreams

08-23-2006, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by polli
Now when more news is coming on who this guy is, you have to agree that this guy is a creadble suspect. But was he in Bolder at that time?

I believe he needs to be cleared and that Michael Tracy did the right thing by turning the emails to LE.

However, I think that the DA jumped the gunin this case and that he's most likely innocent.

JMO, but if the DNA matches, I'll believe he did it.

Helping Hand

08-23-2006, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by Pretty Leaf

This is disgusting,:flamemad:

Have you ever wondered how mean and just awful can a person be? Now you know. I doubt you will last long freshwater has been on tonight and the waters will find you. every one else if you happen to feel as I do then put this poster on ignore!

Hey Paula

08-23-2006, 08:22 PM

While I'm still on the fence, I'm leaning towards JMK being the real killer of JonBenet.

Everyday, I hear about another instance where JMK's signature is SBTC, and that is too much coincidence to be coincidence. I also see significant similarities in JMK's 11th grade handwriting and the person who penned the ransom note, keeping in mind that one of them was written more than 25 years prior and that our handwriting does change somewhat over the years. However, the letters a, d and double l, were written in the same unusual way, even 25 years later.

I think JMK truly believes JonBenet's death was an accident, as he tightened the garrotte he used in this version of EA. When he discovered she died, it might have angered him to the point that he struck JBR in the head with great force.

JMK appears to be a deeply disturbed person, whose prior wife claims that she feared for her life. He also seems to have a morbid interest in the murders/deaths of little girls, perhaps to the point of arousal.

IMO

poplife

08-23-2006, 08:36 PM

The blow to the head came before she was dead, hence the swelling of her brain. The strangulation came last and final; according to reports I've read.

I'm leaning towards JMK having MPD.

Hey Paula

08-23-2006, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by poplife
The blow to the head came before she was dead, hence the swelling of her brain. The strangulation came last and final; according to reports I've read.

I'm leaning towards JMK having MPD.

I heard there was very little bleeding from JBR's head, which meant that she was either already dead when the blow was struck, or nearly dead.

All the medical experts, who've commented on this case, said JBR died of strangulation/asphyxiation, not blunt force trauma.

IMO

polli

08-23-2006, 08:43 PM

There are people out there who realy hate JMK PowerWurks (http://powerwurks.com).

EDDIEisMINE

08-23-2006, 09:44 PM

Sounds like that's him allright there at powerwurks. How creepy.
God I hate the internet. I'm glad my kid likes to play outside, oh wait, that's not safe either. :(

nuisanceposter

08-23-2006, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by poplife
The blow to the head came before she was dead, hence the swelling of her brain. The strangulation came last and final; according to reports I've read.

I'm leaning towards JMK having MPD.

You're absolutely right. The head wound was fully developed, with her brain swollen and pressing up against the inside of her skull. According to experts, that takes 10 minutes to an hour.

There was alos very little damage to the interior of JonBenet's neck. The hyoid bone wasn't broken, the thyroid was undamaged, no bruising of the strap muscles of the neck - as if she did not put up any struggle as she was strangled.

There are no claw marks on her neck where she may have tried to grab the cord, and there are no marks on her wrists indicating that she struggled against restraints. There was no sign of struggle on the tape over her mouth.

Now how is the killer able to strangle her without her fighting back at all? Because she's already unconscious and slipping into a coma from the eight inch fracture in her skull.

nuisanceposter

08-23-2006, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Hey Paula

I heard there was very little bleeding from JBR's head, which meant that she was either already dead when the blow was struck, or nearly dead.

All the medical experts, who've commented on this case, said JBR died of strangulation/asphyxiation, not blunt force trauma.

IMO

Head wounds are known to sometimes not bleed a lot. There's more blood than it sounds - there are three sections of pooled blood, and her brain was swollen with temporal lobe bruising - meaning her brain was bruised from shaking as in shaken baby symdrome.

When JonBenet was hit on the head, she lost conscious immediately, and probably gave all appearance of being dead. The person who hit her then strangled her with the cord, which killed her, but if she hadn't been strangled, that skull fracture would have eventually killed her.

IMO, the person who hit her thought she was dead when they tied the cord around her neck. It appears as though she was strangled face down, because her underwear and long johns were urine-stained in the crotch and in the front. Interesting to note - dark fibers consistent with the shirt that John Ramsey wore that night were found in JonBenet's underwear and in her pubic area, and fibers consistent with the jacket Patsy wore that night were found in the paint tray, on the back of the tape, and TIED into the knot at the back of JonBenet's neck.

The knot was not a noose knot, it was a fixed knot - described as a double knot in the autopsy. JonBenet's hair was also entwined in this knot, indicating that the ligature was "built" on her neck.

Hey Paula

08-23-2006, 10:15 PM

According to the TH medical experts, including Drs Cyril Wecht, Warner Spitz and Michael Baden, the manner of death was ashyxiation, not blunt force trauma, which means the blow to JonBenet's head was delievered either perimortem or post mortem.

IMO

nuisanceposter

08-23-2006, 11:24 PM

No, the stragulation killed her before the head wound did. The head wound was fully developed - with her brain swollen and pressing up against the inside of ther skull. That takes 10 minutes to an hour to develop. Her heart was beating when she was hit on the head, and her heart continued to beat afterwards - or the head wound with swelling would not have been able to develop as much as it did. Check what Spitz says again. He's the one I get this info from.

aproudmom

08-24-2006, 06:31 AM

Thanks I did not see that....or read about it.....Sounds like he always liked young girls.

km

aproudmom

08-24-2006, 06:48 AM

Thanks for the link...I heard that the Boulder PD and the FBI got these tapes in 2001.
I am referring to the Hutchins tapes....I have not heard why she was taping him..does anyone know?
And what or did the BPD or FBI look into him in 2001 since they had already made up there mind the parents did it..

km

dandb729

08-24-2006, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by aproudmom
Thanks for the link...I heard that the Boulder PD and the FBI got these tapes in 2001.
I am referring to the Hutchins tapes....I have not heard why she was taping him..does anyone know?
And what or did the BPD or FBI look into him in 2001 since they had already made up there mind the parents did it..

km

Well, I believe Wendy Hutchins was advised by the FBI to start recording their conversations. Here is the link for the transcripts from last nights show.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0608/23/ng.01.html

EDDIEisMINE

08-24-2006, 10:39 AM

I know he was about to have a sex change they said so could SBTC have anything to do with this?

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=22464

Obviously he is a bisexual if he is going to become a woman?

watson

08-24-2006, 12:24 PM

Just wanted to chime in to say, I've heard the tapes (at least the ones brodcast). In them Karr goes on in the fashion we've already come to expect from him.....his 'love' and sexual feelings for Polly Klass (long since dead when the tapes were made). His 'love' and feelings for the long since dead JonBenet, his attraction to little girls, what these feelings mean blah, blah. He really says nothing useful to solving the JonBenet case that I heard.

watson

08-24-2006, 02:35 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=2351162&page=1

Check out the link above for a forensic psychological profile of Karr.

EDDIEisMINE

08-24-2006, 04:54 PM

SOOOOOO, could it be that John Karrs own mother either treated him like a girl when he was small and either molested him, or, he just felt like a little girl as a child and was molested, and as he is talking to little girls, or hurting them, like JB, he put himself into her shoes?

TN_Profiler

08-24-2006, 05:18 PM

I heard recently some talking heads discussing a former "POI" who was investigated in the months following the murder. They said he wore a hat that had the SBTC initials on it.

Does anyone remember this? He apparently was a person who came from the "sex offender" files that lived in/near Boulder. He committed suicide within 1 year of her murder.

Now, I am not saying he is responsible but it sure does make me wonder about the initials on the hat. At the very least .... it is a bizarre coincidence.

Using it as a sign off on a letter would make the "Subic Bay" references seem unlikely.

Also, did anyone notice that the letter uses singular and plural references? (i.e. "we" & "I") I thought that was important because it starts out as if she is kidnapped by more than one person but then reverts back to singular references. :shrug:

polli

08-24-2006, 05:32 PM

How do you based on the profile see JMK? Is he Mr. Nice trying to behave, or Mr. Bad in disquise?

shadowraith

08-24-2006, 05:48 PM

To my mind, JMIK fits one of two profiles. He's either an obsessed post-mortem stalker (likely) or he was really there.

If the former, I think his "so-called" confession is a part of his fantasy and has very little to do with publicity. In fact, I think the reason he waived extradition is the potential that he will not only get to visit the crime scene but he will be escorted by the Boulder PD. Imagine how that would play into his fantasy?

As to the latter, I personally, do not think he is the killer. In fact, I would be prone to think he was more of an ancillary player. Was he the one who wrote the note & took pictures?

For example, he claims he looked into her eyes while she was dying. But she was strangled from behind. So... who was working the garotte?

He also says, "I was there. It was an accident." If he was in fact there and if he did not in fact kill her then the question that comes to mind is, was this a botched child sex slave kidnapping?

Okay, that's pretty out there. However consider the degree of security involved in the case as well as the legal players. As I note in my article, The Iceman cometh (http://www.shadowraiths.net/?p=76), I think there is more than meets the eye. Much more.

In any event, all this is just some outloud musings. In the end, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

In the meantime, for those who are interested in reading about the "facts" as opposed to "rumors" of the case, I've uploaded several pdf documents to my document management system (DMS). Justice Julie Carnes opinion in Wolf v Ramsey is quite comprehensive and imho, worth a read. You can find the docs here (http://dms.shadowraiths.net/jonbenet).

NB: Wolf v Ramsey pdfs [click the folder icon to get to these]-though compressed-are extremely large files. Especially the two pdfs covering the document analysis expert testimony. The latter being multi-megabytes. So high bandwidth and the patience of Job is required.

__________________
§hadoΨraith§ Note Bored (http://forum.shadowraiths.net)

"There is no such thing as chance, only patterns we do not understand." — Ellison, Chaos Theory

Lili007

08-25-2006, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by EDDIEisMINE
I agree something doesn't fit. Maybe he picked her up from school in his mind, lol. j/k. I think he planned this out for a long time. Pre meditated. I think he knew what he was doing and he knew how he would get away and what time he would get away from his family and do this in a timely manner so noone would notice, and he would be back home in bed by the time his wife awoke on the 26th. Scary but probable. Now the question is, did he killl anyone else?

I would say he probably has. And...I think the reason he didn't have a "place" to take her is he had to do this in a timely manner and their home was so big, why not just take her to the cellar? It worked didn't it?

Well, actually no - it didn't. Why take the trouble and the risk of writing a ransom note, just to abscond JonBenet from her bed, assault her, hit her on the head, and take the time to make a garotte to strangle her with? She was just a 6-year old child. All of what was done to her doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Whoever it was, if they were after a ransom, they wouldn't have gone through all the totally unnecessary overkill in the family's own basement.

And if *he* wasn't after any ransom, but had other ideas, why write a ransom note at all? And why not take JonBenet far away from her own home, instead of killing her and leaving her in the basement?

IMO, this was 'personal'. She was gagged with duct tape - for a 6-year-old, one would think it's more than enough to "quieten" her. Then she's hit over the head, and then she's strangled, not with hands, or anything else "handy", but with a garotte which had to be fashioned from rope and a wooden handle. This, for a tiny girl who was most probably unconscious by then (I hope!), and certainly not some muscle-bound macho mad max who was going to threaten her fearless 'abductor(s)'. It's just such overkill and it makes no sense.

Whoever did this is truly sick, IMO, so maybe what makes or doesn't make sense to you or me doesn't even enter the equation, to the person(s) who killed her. Maybe they're that far out from reality that they just don't give it a second thought. Now that's what I call scary.

The way she was killed, and where, and how, point to something very 'personal' about this crime. I don't know who, but I'd almost guarantee it wasn't some stranger who just walked in off the street because he found a window or a door open. There's much too much deliberation and calculation in all that happened prior to JonBenet's murder, as well as afterwards.

JMO,
Lili

EDDIEisMINE

08-25-2006, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Lili007

Well, actually no - it didn't. Why take the trouble and the risk of writing a ransom note, just to abscond JonBenet from her bed, assault her, hit her on the head, and take the time to make a garotte to strangle her with? She was just a 6-year old child. All of what was done to her doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Whoever it was, if they were after a ransom, they wouldn't have gone through all the totally unnecessary overkill in the family's own basement.

And if *he* wasn't after any ransom, but had other ideas, why write a ransom note at all? And why not take JonBenet far away from her own home, instead of killing her and leaving her in the basement?

IMO, this was 'personal'. She was gagged with duct tape - for a 6-year-old, one would think it's more than enough to "quieten" her. Then she's hit over the head, and then she's strangled, not with hands, or anything else "handy", but with a garotte which had to be fashioned from rope and a wooden handle. This, for a tiny girl who was most probably unconscious by then (I hope!), and certainly not some muscle-bound macho mad max who was going to threaten her fearless 'abductor(s)'. It's just such overkill and it makes no sense.

Whoever did this is truly sick, IMO, so maybe what makes or doesn't make sense to you or me doesn't even enter the equation, to the person(s) who killed her. Maybe they're that far out from reality that they just don't give it a second thought. Now that's what I call scary.

The way she was killed, and where, and how, point to something very 'personal' about this crime. I don't know who, but I'd almost guarantee it wasn't some stranger who just walked in off the street because he found a window or a door open. There's much too much deliberation and calculation in all that happened prior to JonBenet's murder, as well as afterwards.

JMO,
Lili

Well, he did get away with it for awhile. Obviously it hasn't been solved for 10 years. If John Karr committed this crime, It would seem he was already obsessed with John Benet, because he told the lady who taped him in the tapes that sometimes little girls could tell him things that they don't even tell their own moms, etc. We don't know how or why or how long he could of been watching her. But, we do know he was totally obsessed with her, so maybe the thrill of doing it to her in her own home got him off in a sick sort of way. His family, who claim he was with them during Christmas, don't even know if he spent that Christmas with them in Atlanta or with his wife in Alabama. The ransom note was probably written by him to throw off the family and police in case they woke up while he was in the basement with her. Or, maybe it was written by him to make it look like she was kidnapped for money to keep them from suspecting a single person. Maybe he knew people would suspect Patsy if he wrote it the way he did. He already told the people in Thiland he knew about the check stub for the ransom amount. Noone knew about that but him. He said something to that lady on the phone about Jon Benets home dripping with her sweet spirit or something to that effect. Plus, a handwriting analysis said like a 99% chance this was written by Karr. That's a pretty good chance. Not to mention the DNA found on her body that could not be traced to anyone by an unknown male. The answers are all before us, but yet, some of us don't want to believe it. Why? It's already been concluded he's not crazy or doesn't appear to be. He's very intellegent obviously, and no picture of anything has been brought forth from his family to prove he was anywhere during that Christmas season, so What is not to believe? It all fits.

Lili007

08-25-2006, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by EDDIEisMINE

Well, he did get away with it for awhile. Obviously it hasn't been solved for 10 years. If John Karr committed this crime, It would seem he was already obsessed with John Benet, because he told the lady who taped him in the tapes that sometimes little girls could tell him things that they don't even tell their own moms, etc. We don't know how or why or how long he could of been watching her. But, we do know he was totally obsessed with her, so maybe the thrill of doing it to her in her own home got him off in a sick sort of way. His family, who claim he was with them during Christmas, don't even know if he spent that Christmas with them in Atlanta or with his wife in Alabama. The ransom note was probably written by him to throw off the family and police in case they woke up while he was in the basement with her. Or, maybe it was written by him to make it look like she was kidnapped for money to keep them from suspecting a single person. Maybe he knew people would suspect Patsy if he wrote it the way he did. He already told the people in Thiland he knew about the check stub for the ransom amount. Noone knew about that but him. He said something to that lady on the phone about Jon Benets home dripping with her sweet spirit or something to that effect. Plus, a handwriting analysis said like a 99% chance this was written by Karr. That's a pretty good chance. Not to mention the DNA found on her body that could not be traced to anyone by an unknown male. The answers are all before us, but yet, some of us don't want to believe it. Why? It's already been concluded he's not crazy or doesn't appear to be. He's very intellegent obviously, and no picture of anything has been brought forth from his family to prove he was anywhere during that Christmas season, so What is not to believe? It all fits.

I don't think it fits at all. I think he may have fantasized about it, AFTER the fact, and "confessed" because in his 'sick' mind he may actually have convinced himself that he did.

I think you're a lot smarter than you portray yourself, but not quite enough to convince anyone (or at least not me) of anyone's guilt but his own.

KMO,
Lili

EDDIEisMINE

08-25-2006, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Lili007

I don't think it fits at all. I think he may have fantasized about it, AFTER the fact, and "confessed" because in his 'sick' mind he may actually have convinced himself that he did.

I think you're a lot smarter than you portray yourself, but not quite enough to convince anyone (or at least not me) of anyone's guilt but his own.

KMO,
Lili

I'm not trying to convince anyone that I am bright or smart. I am a mother of one who doesn't work and bored, so in my spare time, I post on this board. I have read up on the case, and I could be wrong, but obviously, it doesn't take me to convince anyone, it all falls down to if they have any proof whether he did it or not. Does the DNA match, etc. The law enforcement team obviously had enough of a suspicion to arrest this man. We aren't trained law or investigators so what we guess that happened is just that, a guess. I guess whether I prove to be right or wrong will all come out in the wash, and until then, I respect your opinion, so please try to respect mine.

createthis

08-25-2006, 01:12 PM

Last thing I heard was that the parents of Karr's first wife said he signed letters to their daughter SBTC.

watson

08-25-2006, 06:21 PM

How do I see Karr based on the profile? First, let me say I agree with the profile completely. Like the Dr. says in the profile one of the biggest things about Karr that struck me right away, was that he was not acting like a real criminal, and certainly not like a confessing child killer. He was instead acting like a celebrity, who was enjoying the attention (the champagne toast on the flight from Thailand comes to mind, what would a real child sex killer have to toasting to?).
Second, from all we now know about him, he sounds like a guy at the very end of his rope. He left the US to skip out on CF porn charges that would land him in the state pen, where he would live about 1 month. He's bummed around to the worlds most sleazeball spots and couldn't even keep a teaching job there. He's toyed with turning into a woman and didn't complete that. I think he long ago decided to end it all and kill himself when the time was right, all he's had left were his fantasies. He's a pedophile with confused sexual identity. His fantasies are all about turning murdered real little girls into fantasy romantic and love objects for himself, where he inserts himself into the crime. Then along come the wonderful Boulder DA's office, not a trained policemen or detective among them, and snap him up because of his pedophile e-mails. Why shouldn't he go along, what does he have to lose? If the world believes it, and they do convict him, CO will execute him (after years), but then he was ready to die anyway, and this way his name, and the rest of his life will always be linked and inter-twined with the subject of one of his most loved fantasies.

TuscanDreams

08-25-2006, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by shadowraith
Okay, that's pretty out there. However consider the degree of security involved in the case as well as the legal players. As I note in my article, The Iceman cometh (http://www.shadowraiths.net/?p=76), I think there is more than meets the eye. Much more.

That was a very interesting article, thank you for posting that link.

And I do agree with you that the fantasy is what motivates Karr. I have serious doubts that he killed JonBenet, but he is a dangerous pedophile/ fixated child molestor.

TuscanDreams

08-25-2006, 08:31 PM

Actually, one of the theories on pedophiles is that they only identify with those at the age that they quit developing at. For example- I know that Michael Jackson is "innocent" but let's say that the rumors are true and that he's pedophile. In his case, he molests young boys- which are the same age that he started touring the US at. The case can be made that this is when he became emotionally stunted and that he only identifies with boys of the same age as friends or sexual partners.

JMO only!

Lili007

08-26-2006, 03:07 AM

Originally posted by EDDIEisMINE

I'm not trying to convince anyone that I am bright or smart. I am a mother of one who doesn't work and bored, so in my spare time, I post on this board. I have read up on the case, and I could be wrong, but obviously, it doesn't take me to convince anyone, it all falls down to if they have any proof whether he did it or not. Does the DNA match, etc. The law enforcement team obviously had enough of a suspicion to arrest this man. We aren't trained law or investigators so what we guess that happened is just that, a guess. I guess whether I prove to be right or wrong will all come out in the wash, and until then, I respect your opinion, so please try to respect mine.

I do respect your opinion, EDDIEisMINE. Just because we argue some points or principles doesn't mean I disconsider what you believe or what you post. We just don't happen to agree on some points - that's all.

All the best,
Lili :seeya:

aproudmom

08-26-2006, 03:23 AM

Does anyone have a link to Wendy Hutchins website...I can't seem to find it...But it has been talked about on 2 shows...

curious mom

08-26-2006, 07:52 AM

http://www.wendyhutchens.com/

At least it was working last night and this morning.

rosebud

08-26-2006, 08:31 AM

On Nancy Grace also one of the reporters said that behind the scenes some Boulder investigators are worried that the Ramsey family fed the filmmaker/professor Tracy "inside information" about the crime scene, and that Tracy has passed it on to Karr. They specifically mentioned the location of the drawer where Ramsey financial records were kept including the information on the 118,000 dollar Christmas bonus, which is apparently one of the things that Karr got right in his emails back to Tracy and which convinced the DA that Karr was the guy.

The reporter also mentioned the bracelet which JBR got for Christmas and which was apparently on her wrist when she was found in the basement. But since Nancy Grace produced a photo of the bracelet I am not sure what else Karr could have said about that would have meant anything.

Apparently Karr is not the first person not named Ramsey that Tracy has accused of murdering JBR. Although he poses as someone who is just a critic of the news media coverage and its "one-sided" nature in accusing the Ramsey's, he has interviewed them several times and is considered "close" to them. It sounds more like Tracy is a soldier in the cause to prove them innocent.

If the Ramseys did it it would also be very clever to feed Tracy inside information that the police are withholding to muddy up the works for eternity so that everyone thinks they might be innocent, or at least muddy it up enough so that their own family and friends think they are innocent.

I have seen some handwriting samples of Karr compared to the ransom note and some letters are very similar. And yet, some are saying it is no match. I also realize that there are handwriting "experts" who swear that Patsy wrote the note and others who say she did not or it was inconclusive. If I ever get on a criminal case jury and handwriting analysts testify for one side or another, I think I may discount all of their testimony. It sounds to me like it is one step removed from palm reading.

One thing about emotional cases like this one, is that people dig trenches around their opinions and defend those positions with emotional vigor. Over time it becomes more than a "position" and it sort of becomes personal and part of who we are, and we never want to admit that the other side, which part of us has come to resent or even despise, might be right and then it becomes very important to prove that one's position is right and the other side is wrong. Somewhere in the descent from the trees the desire to tell the other monkey, "see I told you so" became ingrained on our DNA.

That may have happened with Tracey.

If Karr did it and it is NOT his pubic hair that was found on JBR and not his DNA that was found under her fingernails or on her panties, it may be impossible to convict him. I see that at least 36 lawyers have volunteered to defend him for free, just for the publicity. I would assume some are very competent.

It will be very easy to suggest that Tracey fed him inside information and that Karr is mentally unbalanced and just wants attention or is just what Ellen DeGeneres says they used to call all people with one or more of the myriad of mental "conditions" we know about today, "just plain crazy."

rosebud

08-26-2006, 08:43 AM

I read that over 200 people falsely confessed to The Black Dahlia murder in Los Angeles in the 1940s. It was a case like JBR's in that the press milked it for every publicity seeking and paper selling dime they could. It got a lot of publicity for a long time. It is still worth something on the profitable tabloid circuit today.

Since the police were under a lot of pressure to solve it, one has to wonder just how crazy all these people were that the police did not try to pin it on one of them.

Lili007

08-26-2006, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by rosebud
I read that over 200 people falsely confessed to The Black Dahlia murder in Los Angeles in the 1940s. It was a case like JBR's in that the press milked it for every publicity seeking and paper selling dime they could. It got a lot of publicity for a long time. It is still worth something on the profitable tabloid circuit today.

Since the police were under a lot of pressure to solve it, one has to wonder just how crazy all these people were that the police did not try to pin it on one of them.

Rosebud, it was only a couple of days ago I heard about the Black Dahlia case, and here you are mentioning it in your post. It's uncanny.

Good point about false 'confessions'. I think - I HOPE! - LE don't try to fit a murderer to the crime just to "solve" a case. We've all seen it, many times, when people tried to "confess" to some horrible crime for their own sick reasons. If we, the public, know better than to believe them, you can bet that LE know much, much more.

JMO,
Lili

FurthurBB

08-26-2006, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Richard_Diamond

Mr. Tracey has produced documentaries that support the position that the Ramseys are innocent. He has a vested interest in seeing someone other than the Ramseys committed the crime.
If he can get Karr into a trial, regardless of whether he did it or not, it will vindicate both him and the Ramseys. Is it possible Mr. Tracey is trying to deflect attention from the Ramseys?

I dunno, lots of people have confessed and not been arrested. I have to believe that the DA has more than she is saying on this guy. There is a 40 page indictment. We have not seen fourty pages worth of evidence.

irishlady

08-26-2006, 06:15 PM

i watched a programme on the bbc where they interviewed "former" pedophiles and one guy said that they are attracted to children who look like children.Why then would this creep like JON-BENET as she looked like an adult?If anyone has an insight into this i would really love to know

Richard_Diamond

08-26-2006, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by rosebud
I read that over 200 people falsely confessed to The Black Dahlia murder in Los Angeles in the 1940s. It was a case like JBR's in that the press milked it for every publicity seeking and paper selling dime they could. It got a lot of publicity for a long time. It is still worth something on the profitable tabloid circuit today.

Since the police were under a lot of pressure to solve it, one has to wonder just how crazy all these people were that the police did not try to pin it on one of them.

I believe the news said 200 people falsely confessed to the Lindberg baby kidnapping case in the 1930's.

In any event, the prosecutors seem to determined to find Karr guility. Are the prosecutors over zealous in pursuing Karr?

irishlady

08-26-2006, 07:31 PM

my opinion is that they need to close this case and if this guy is willing to stand up for it well they'll be only too happy to accept his confession...even as a non american i can see how bad this case makes the boulder police dept look and i'm sure they will happily close the file if they can

Jadedblueeyes

08-26-2006, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by rosebud
On Nancy Grace also one of the reporters said that behind the scenes some Boulder investigators are worried that the Ramsey family fed the filmmaker/professor Tracy "inside information" about the crime scene, and that Tracy has passed it on to Karr. They specifically mentioned the location of the drawer where Ramsey financial records were kept including the information on the 118,000 dollar Christmas bonus, which is apparently one of the things that Karr got right in his emails back to Tracy and which convinced the DA that Karr was the guy.

The reporter also mentioned the bracelet which JBR got for Christmas and which was apparently on her wrist when she was found in the basement. But since Nancy Grace produced a photo of the bracelet I am not sure what else Karr could have said about that would have meant anything.

Apparently Karr is not the first person not named Ramsey that Tracy has accused of murdering JBR. Although he poses as someone who is just a critic of the news media coverage and its "one-sided" nature in accusing the Ramsey's, he has interviewed them several times and is considered "close" to them. It sounds more like Tracy is a soldier in the cause to prove them innocent.

If the Ramseys did it it would also be very clever to feed Tracy inside information that the police are withholding to muddy up the works for eternity so that everyone thinks they might be innocent, or at least muddy it up enough so that their own family and friends think they are innocent.

It will be very easy to suggest that Tracey fed him inside information and that Karr is mentally unbalanced and just wants attention or is just what Ellen DeGeneres says they used to call all people with one or more of the myriad of mental "conditions" we know about today, "just plain crazy."

I am not so sure I agree with the premise "it will be very easy to suggest". The defense will have to do more than just suggest.

It is very logical that all emails from Tracey to JMK will be entered and all emails from JMK to Tracey will be entered. It will not be a one sided issue. So if those emails from Tracey have no information given to JMK then what JMK emailed to Tracey will carry more weight.

I highly doubt that Tracey led JMK to say anything about JBR. I don't think you could shut this man up if one tried.

I do not know if he is guilty or a loon or both but I will wait until the evidence comes out in court.

IMO

Ocean

Jadedblueeyes

08-26-2006, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by Lili007

Are you suggesting he may have confessed because he committed 'this sort of crime' against someone else, so he fulfilled his need to get it off his chest by confessing to JonBenet's murder instead, as some sort of "atonement"?

An interesting idea indeed. But if that's the case, why not confess to the original crime?

Or maybe I just misunderstood your meaning.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Now there would be a clever move. But I still don't see the reason for confessing in the first place, if that is the case. Unless, as before, he's some sort of macademia who hasn't got anything better to do and wanted a few days of fame or infamy to brighten up his dull life. Or maybe it was just the ultimate fantasy of a pedophile's sick mind. Yick! :mad:

Then there's the other 'theory' doing the rounds... that Karr might have known or even helped the 'real killer', without actually having done it himself.

Too soon - much more needs to be corroborated or eliminated. IMO, the discrepancies between his statement and known, established facts are the problem.

JMO,
Lili [/B]

I think in all reality we do not know conclusively any "known and established facts" with JMK or his statements.

He has supposed to have said this or that........then it comes out he didn't really say that at all.

IMO, this case is going to have to come to light in a court of law for any known established facts and statements actually made.

IMO

Ocean

Jadedblueeyes

08-26-2006, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by irishlady
my opinion is that they need to close this case and if this guy is willing to stand up for it well they'll be only too happy to accept his confession...even as a non american i can see how bad this case makes the boulder police dept look and i'm sure they will happily close the file if they can

DA Lacey is not Ex-DA Alex Hunter.....you can take that to the bank. She is highly respected and is known as being extremely thorough and cautious with her cases.

IMO this will end because there will be evidence showing he is the one if not then it will continue. I am going to let DA Lacey try her case and see what she has.

IMO

Ocean

tiredoftheguff

08-26-2006, 09:07 PM

I think he did it! I think the inconsistencies are a result of miscommunication between he and the Thai authorities. He signed his yearbook Shall be the conqueror! The ransom note said Victory SBTC at the very end! Hello....how many people are gonna sign a ransom note like that? Also I think he wrote the note before they even came home that night. I think he intended to kidnap her and hold her for ransom and molest her but obviously his plan went awry. He killed her and left her there. He may not have been able to get her out the window and could have at some point dropped her on her head accounting for the skull fracture. My two cents only. I think DNA will prove that he did it. Also supposedly the check stub from John Ramseys bonus check was there on Patsy's desk so I am sure he saw it and that is why he used that figure in the ranson note.

froggy

08-26-2006, 09:20 PM

In advance of John Karr's deportation to America, wouldn't someone have taken his DNA seriptiously if not legally in an attempt to determine his culpability and legitimacy of his confession?

rosebud

08-26-2006, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes

I am not so sure I agree with the premise "it will be very easy to suggest". The defense will have to do more than just suggest.

It is very logical that all emails from Tracey to JMK will be entered and all emails from JMK to Tracey will be entered. It will not be a one sided issue. So if those emails from Tracey have no information given to JMK then what JMK emailed to Tracey will carry more weight.

I highly doubt that Tracey led JMK to say anything about JBR. I don't think you could shut this man up if one tried.

I do not know if he is guilty or a loon or both but I will wait until the evidence comes out in court.

IMO

Ocean

Well, I would not judge Karr's guilt by any handwriting analysis, that is for sure. I just looked at a detailed comparison of the ransom note compared to Patsy Ramsey's handwriting and the many similarities in both and the oddities of the handwriting that appear to match in both are remarkable.

Tracey sounds like someone to me who wants to be proven right and to prove all of those who "persecuted" Patsy are wrong.

rosebud

08-26-2006, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Richard_Diamond

I believe the news said 200 people falsely confessed to the Lindberg baby kidnapping case in the 1930's.

In any event, the prosecutors seem to determined to find Karr guility. Are the prosecutors over zealous in pursuing Karr?

Right, according to Wikipedia ONLY sixty people falsely confessed to The Black Dahlia murder. Sheeesh.

rosebud

08-26-2006, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes

DA Lacey is not Ex-DA Alex Hunter.....you can take that to the bank. She is highly respected and is known as being extremely thorough and cautious with her cases.

IMO this will end because there will be evidence showing he is the one if not then it will continue. I am going to let DA Lacey try her case and see what she has.

IMO

Ocean

Mary Lacey may have thought she had to move on Karr because it took months to find him and she was afraid he would take off if he knew he was about to be arrested or she may have honestly felt a moral duty to take him out of the classroom in Thailand, although she could have just told the Thais he was a pedophile.

Mary Lacey is probably a decent person and a conscientious DA but I think this is going to be a major embarressment for her. I don't think the guy did it.

I think Tracey somehow fed Karr inside information that the Ramseys gave to him and I think Karr is regurgitating it to the police to make them think he is the guy.

rosebud

08-26-2006, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by tiredoftheguff
I think he did it! I think the inconsistencies are a result of miscommunication between he and the Thai authorities. He signed his yearbook Shall be the conqueror! The ransom note said Victory SBTC at the very end! Hello....how many people are gonna sign a ransom note like that? Also I think he wrote the note before they even came home that night. I think he intended to kidnap her and hold her for ransom and molest her but obviously his plan went awry. He killed her and left her there. He may not have been able to get her out the window and could have at some point dropped her on her head accounting for the skull fracture. My two cents only. I think DNA will prove that he did it. Also supposedly the check stub from John Ramseys bonus check was there on Patsy's desk so I am sure he saw it and that is why he used that figure in the ranson note.

Karr could not get JB through a basement window? He could have simply walked through a door to exit the house. He could have left through a window in any unoccupied room. Instead why would Karr walk into the only room in the house that had no windows or exits from it and only one door? No intruder would hide there. If people got up he would have been trapped in there. It was a damp cold room. It had mold on the floor. It makes no sense for an intruder to go in there.

Lili007

08-27-2006, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes

I think in all reality we do not know conclusively any "known and established facts" with JMK or his statements.

He has supposed to have said this or that........then it comes out he didn't really say that at all.

IMO, this case is going to have to come to light in a court of law for any known established facts and statements actually made.

IMO

Ocean

My reference to "known, established facts" was regarding JonBenet's whereabouts that day, which clash with JMK's statement.

1. JonBenet was not at school that day, so he couldn't have picked her up there.

2. JonBenet was at home with her family that night and tucked into her bed, not taken to the basement after "being picked up from school".

3. If 1. and 2. are not true, I would have expected LE to be contacted by the Ramseys that afternoon, not the next morning. No 6-year old goes "missing" for half a day, all of the evening and night without someone noticing it. Therefore, it didn't happen.

Those are known and established facts and JMK's story doesn't match. That's all I meant.

JMO,
Lili

rosebud

08-27-2006, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by froggy
In advance of John Karr's deportation to America, wouldn't someone have taken his DNA seriptiously if not legally in an attempt to determine his culpability and legitimacy of his confession?

Yes, unless the DA has decided that this is the very rare case: one where the DNA is not relevent.

tiredoftheguff

08-27-2006, 08:40 AM

Yes in fact there were a series of 3 windows in the room where JBR was found by her father. One of them was open and there was a suitcase sitting just below it. As though the killer sat it there in order to stand on it to get out the window. The Ramseys had a security system in there home and so he may have thought that they might turn it on before going to bed. Therefore he would not have gone out one of the doors.

EDDIEisMINE

08-27-2006, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by irishlady
i watched a programme on the bbc where they interviewed "former" pedophiles and one guy said that they are attracted to children who look like children.Why then would this creep like JON-BENET as she looked like an adult?If anyone has an insight into this i would really love to know

I don't think she looked like an adult and I don't think Jon Karr is attracted to them so much sexually as he is emotionally attracted to them. The fact that he didn't (as far as I've read) penetrate her sexually but with an object proves this. I think he is just a murderer who gets off killing kids just to spite the parents, as how he talked about what he did to the lady who taped their phone calls. I think where people are going wrong is putting him into a position of Just a pedophile instead of a disturbed child murderer position. He is considered a pedophile because he had pictures of naked children, not because he is sexually attracted to them. I think he is a freak and not the normal pedophile and they should stop trying to compare what he did to what other pedophiles have done to their victims. That is where this case is going wrong. Look at him. Look at him. That is not the face of an innocent man. He looks like a canabal (sp?) and people who think he didn't commit this crime are so far off it's pitiful.

emmeblu

08-27-2006, 08:38 PM

No one at this point can say with any certainty JMK killed JBR. I have a strong feeling that he did not commit this crime but I am not certain of that fact. I do hope that LE has evidence they are holding as the "smoking gun". DNA may be that smoking gun but I hope they have something concrete.

In the end, it is entirely possible that this will be the murder case that remains cold years from now.
Sad but true.
JMO

:rose: JB rest in peace

A_seeker

08-27-2006, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by EDDIEisMINE

I think he is a freak and not the normal pedophile

Uhmmm, there is no such this as a "normal" pedophile. They are all freaks.

EDDIEisMINE

08-28-2006, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by A_seeker

Uhmmm, there is no such this as a "normal" pedophile. They are all freaks.

Believe me, that's not what I meant. I'm sure you understood what I was saying.:rolleyes:

A_seeker

08-28-2006, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by EDDIEisMINE

Believe me, that's not what I meant. I'm sure you understood what I was saying.:rolleyes:

Well....at this point...looks like your theory was off.....

according to the news....DNA has ruled him out as the killer.

watson

08-28-2006, 08:03 PM

Hooray! Boulder DA Mary Lacy's and 'team Ramsey's' (who I believe are her 'investigators') HOAX upon the citizens of Boulder, the people of CO, all of the US and the world is EXPOSED and OVER! They had the media fooled, homeland security fooled, and the ,military government of Thailand fooled, and made fools of all of them. But, now the the jig is up. All they did was find a perverted crackpot, and try to pin one of the crimes of the century on him, without any reasonable police work, proper investigation or evidence. They must think the public and taxpayers are fools. Can anyone say.........false arrest lawsuit......and attorney ethical violations?

watson

08-28-2006, 08:33 PM

Now that perhaps the most incompetent elected prosecutor in the US, the town of Boulder CO's DA has dropped all charges against the person she accused of the crime of the century and swore out an arrest warrant against, can we all start talking about a FALSE ARREST LAWSUIT? In discussing this earlier today, someone pointed out that Karr 'had' to be arrested because he confessed to the crime, but this is inaccurate.
Karr did NOT confess to the crime first, but fantasized in e-mails, he did NOT turn himself in, the Lacy numbnuts went across the whole world at taxpayers expense and surprised him. When already UNDER arrest he still didn't really 'confess', but said he was 'with' JB when she died, which in this nuts case could mean he was 'with' her spirtually in his dreams whatever. When also asked if he was innocent, he said 'no'. So what, technically that is not a 'confession', the only human I ever heard of who was totally innocent was Jesus.
THey had no right to arrest him on this 'confession', and besides they already had, had him arested in TLand, and had sworn out a US warrant against him without any investigation or evidence to back it up. This sounds like now, a false arrest lawsuit that will cost the poor taxpayers of BOulder a lot more millions than Mary Lacy's TLand flights at taxpayers expese.

rosebud

08-28-2006, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by watson
Now that perhaps the most incompetent elected prosecutor in the US, the town of Boulder CO's DA has dropped all charges against the person she accused of the crime of the century and swore out an arrest warrant against, can we all start talking about a FALSE ARREST LAWSUIT? In discussing this earlier today, someone pointed out that Karr 'had' to be arrested because he confessed to the crime, but this is inaccurate.
Karr did NOT confess to the crime first, but fantasized in e-mails, he did NOT turn himself in, the Lacy numbnuts went across the whole world at taxpayers expense and surprised him. When already UNDER arrest he still didn't really 'confess', but said he was 'with' JB when she died, which in this nuts case could mean he was 'with' her spirtually in his dreams whatever. When also asked if he was innocent, he said 'no'. So what, technically that is not a 'confession', the only human I ever heard of who was totally innocent was Jesus.
THey had no right to arrest him on this 'confession', and besides they already had, had him arested in TLand, and had sworn out a US warrant against him without any investigation or evidence to back it up. This sounds like now, a false arrest lawsuit that will cost the poor taxpayers of BOulder a lot more millions than Mary Lacy's TLand flights at taxpayers expese.

In the words of a 1980s song, "Another one (DA) bites the dust."

watson

08-28-2006, 09:07 PM

I'll be the first to agree he didn't have much of a life left to ruin. Apparently nothing more than his sick fantasies and his gender identity crisis to keep him company. But then came the dumbest posse in the west, the Boulder DA, and her investigators who have announced this guy to the WHOLE world (even Thailand) as the guy who did it, AND HE DIDN'T. What are they going to do now? Apologize?? Who will remember that? This guy had trouble getting a job in a slum of Bangcock Thailand, who is going to hire him now, in this solar system? On top of that, all his personal e-mails and sick fantasies, pedophilia, and transvestite desires have been brodcast and made public to the whole world and every late night comedian. We should all remember, that this sick loser has NEVER been convicted of even ONE crime. That as far as we know despite his mental problems, he's NEVER hurt a fly. Even, as I understand it the CA charges against him from 2001 are the lowest order misdemeanors, and they've yet to be tried.
For a public offical of CO (elected DA Mary Tracy), a Homeland Security exec. from the current fedreral government, a Thai General, and all the media outlets to go on tv and the internet and announce that this guy did it, when they've not one shred of proof it's true.......... is in my opinion just wrong.... and an outrage. What does anyone else think?
P.S....yeah I know the guy's got major mental health issues, but if we had a government financed mental health system in the US, maybe he would not still be sick, or still be sending sick e-mails to tv producers.

froggy

08-28-2006, 09:26 PM

Given that Karr has pedophile tendencies it stands to reason that he was able to walk in the shoes of the perpetrator. Criminal Profilers will often attempt to do the same. It is also known that Pedophiles' communicate their sick stories with each other. Karr may have been privy to some of these communications. When Jon Benet was murdered the Pedophile network would have been running at warp speed.

Karr is one very sick puppy, who needs medical care. Nevertheless, he is a Pedophile and statistics show a high recidivism rate in this category. His face is now very well known. His life will be a living hell. He has obtained what he sought. His face is known Worldwide and he has established himself in the Jon Benet saga.

Sadly, for his own children he is their father. They are innocent and will have to live with the knowledge of what their father is. He has done them no favours. :( :( :(

dragonlady

08-28-2006, 09:31 PM

No. THEY haven't done anything that this idiot didn't beg for with his own behaviour.

Make no mistake, this guy is enjoying every minute of his new found fame. Losers like this enjoy the notoriety even through these means because they have absolutely no other way of becoming famous.

Don't worry about him for even a second. He'll make a mint from telling his story & living the American dream of being able to sue someone for big bucks.

Think of it this way, as a pedophile he's finished & that's a good thing.

froggy

08-28-2006, 09:36 PM

Karr ruined his own life. No one did it to him. We all make choices. Before anyone can be helped they need to acknowledge that they need help. Having an acceptable Mental Health System is the ideal, however, it would not have helped Karr in this instance. Pedophilia is the norm to him. In his mind there is nothing wrong. Many Pedophiles' wrongly believe it to be a normal sexual desire.

kattitude

08-28-2006, 10:06 PM

No one ruined John Karr's life but his own self!

Here's a thought to ponder....
How many children did he ruin the lives of? Or try to ruin.

Man, what a sicko Karr is

:flamemad: :cuss: :flamemad:

freeze

08-28-2006, 10:38 PM

According to information on the motion to quash the arrest warrant I can see how they had to move when and how they did it. THEY ruined Karr's life? How ridiculous.

dandb729

08-29-2006, 08:45 AM

:cuss: Here's another thought ... how about focusing on how many children's lives were saved because this crazy goofball was detained for 10 days or so. No one here knows how many children he hurt in Bangkok while he was there.

Honestly, I don't feel a damn bit sorry for this freak. He brought this all on himself. I do, however, feel sorry for everyone involved in this case including the Ramsey's themselves. What an emotional roller coaster ... they lived under an umbrella of suspicion for 10 years, Patsy dies of a horrific illness and now this. My thoughts and prayers are with them.

RIGHT ON FREEZE!

:flamemad:

A.J. Mann

08-29-2006, 11:35 AM

I have to agree with most in that he has ruined his own life. This man has gotten a free ride back to the U.S. First class at that. Hopefully he will be paying Colorado back. But he will probably end up trying to sue Colorado or Ms. Lacy for "ruining" his life. Sure that probably won't happen but he has so many big time lawyers wanting to help this guy for their own reasons that he has made all of us aware of him and his life. This is a sick man but, in the same sentence I have to think that there is more to his story. Yes I am sure he wanted the 15 minutes of fame, but he is up to something more. He seems to be a pretty intelligent man for the most part. He is going to end up a rich man some how in this sad, sad story. My heart goes out to the Ramsey family. Mr. Ramsey told everyone to let it be and let everyone do their jobs but we all got rapped up in this man and his story. Ms. Lacy is not the only one to be blamed, all of us are for giving this man the attention he wants. I can only hope he will spend some time in prison. While he is in prison, I hope that they allow him in with all of the prisoners. John Karr will get what he deserves. Mr. Karr has brought all of this on himself. No one should be at fault for ruining his life but himself. If he gets out of prison alive (assuming he goes in CA) he will be getting money out of this to pay for his sex change and won't have to live in fear for the most part because who knows what he will look like. The man is smart. That's to bad.

EDDIEisMINE

08-29-2006, 12:30 PM

As far as I'm concerned, he has either already hurt some little girl or boy, or intending to with the way he talks. We might as well expect that he will probably eventually kill someones "jonBennet."
Let's just hope he hasn't and won't. I can't believe someone with a mind like this is put back into society. Those thoughts should be enough to lock him up.

EDDIEisMINE

08-29-2006, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by A_seeker

Well....at this point...looks like your theory was off.....

according to the news....DNA has ruled him out as the killer.

Yup guess it was. What a bummer, I just knew he killed her.

EDDIEisMINE

08-29-2006, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by watson
Now that perhaps the most incompetent elected prosecutor in the US, the town of Boulder CO's DA has dropped all charges against the person she accused of the crime of the century and swore out an arrest warrant against, can we all start talking about a FALSE ARREST LAWSUIT? In discussing this earlier today, someone pointed out that Karr 'had' to be arrested because he confessed to the crime, but this is inaccurate.
Karr did NOT confess to the crime first, but fantasized in e-mails, he did NOT turn himself in, the Lacy numbnuts went across the whole world at taxpayers expense and surprised him. When already UNDER arrest he still didn't really 'confess', but said he was 'with' JB when she died, which in this nuts case could mean he was 'with' her spirtually in his dreams whatever. When also asked if he was innocent, he said 'no'. So what, technically that is not a 'confession', the only human I ever heard of who was totally innocent was Jesus.
THey had no right to arrest him on this 'confession', and besides they already had, had him arested in TLand, and had sworn out a US warrant against him without any investigation or evidence to back it up. This sounds like now, a false arrest lawsuit that will cost the poor taxpayers of BOulder a lot more millions than Mary Lacy's TLand flights at taxpayers expese.

No, not false arrest. He said he was with her when she died. That's enough if you ask me. :patriot:

WarDEagle

08-29-2006, 05:28 PM

The official papers quashing the investigation into Karr.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/MOTIONTOQUASH1.pdf

watson

08-29-2006, 06:19 PM

In reply to the reply posts, I wasn't defending Karr or what he has of a life (see the begining of the thread) as much as I was critizing the Boulder DA for perpetrating a giant HOAX and FIASCO on the American public and the world. This sick puppy had NOTHING to do with the JB crime, the Boulder DA Mary Lacy wasted a million taxpayer dollars on this Thailand fiasco.
She could have notified the proper Thai authorities to monitor this pathetic sicko to protect the children of Thailand. HER job is not safeguarding the children of fricking Thailand, but in finding the REAL killer of JB, and enforcing the law through our courts in her district of Boulder CO!(where Karr has never been).
So everyone hates this Karr, well I agree with that, he seems to have no redeeming qualities, maybe the best thing he ever did was leave our country to bum around 3rd world Thailand, where he would be the LE problem of that country. We never would have to even known of him, or be bothered by him (nor would our children), if Mary Lacy, and 'team Ramsey' didn't dig him up
and FALSELY say he killed JB or EVER killed anyone.
He's a nobody, that to date, and as far as is known has NEVER hurt one child (not even his own), despite his sicko desires to do so. Frankly, I wish I never heard of him and if we didn't, he would have died of AIDS, or got sex change surgery, or got wiped out by Thai police without anyone bothering about him.

EDDIEisMINE

08-29-2006, 06:34 PM

He'll probably just move on to another country like the other time and get another job somewhere and hurt little girls.:(

Spyder88

08-29-2006, 07:30 PM

He was in big trouble in Thailand and needed to get out of the country fast. He was facing prison in that country and he knew he'd be killed in there, so he trumped up a confession in the JonBenet case so he would be brought back to the USA. He used his "Get out of jail free" card and voila`...it worked like a charm. This freak is dumb like a fox.

7Sandi7

08-29-2006, 10:56 PM

was HOMELAND SECURITY doing in this fiasco?
Aren't they supposed to be hunting terrorist from the ME?
Isn't THAT what we are paying for?

j/c

:7}

7Sandi7

08-29-2006, 11:08 PM

won't be stopped until it is legal to lock them up, permanently.

:7}

LisaM22

08-30-2006, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by froggy
Karr ruined his own life. No one did it to him. We all make choices. Before anyone can be helped they need to acknowledge that they need help. Having an acceptable Mental Health System is the ideal, however, it would not have helped Karr in this instance. Pedophilia is the norm to him. In his mind there is nothing wrong. Many Pedophiles' wrongly believe it to be a normal sexual desire.

exactly - jmho

LisaM22

08-30-2006, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by 7Sandi7
won't be stopped until it is legal to lock them up, permanently.

:7}

I agree, if he goes free and latter kills, who is to blame - jmho

mylipsaresealed

08-30-2006, 06:17 AM

John Karr is responsible for this whole mess, and should be facing charges for creating this whole fiasco. Not only is he a pedophile, but he is very mentally disturbed, a great combination. :mad:

agapemomma

08-30-2006, 01:53 PM

I have no pity for John Mark Karr. I feel badly that he had such trauma in the beginning of his life, but let's not forget that he is an admitted/confessed pedophile. That's the demon he's possessed by. I believe he could do something to change that, but clearly he doesn't desire any change, other than his own gender (supposedly).

Has no one heard the audio tapes of his 'very excited' detailed description of how JonBenet was killed? It's bone-chilling.

The only ways he could've been present at the time of her death are: (1) by means of a video of her killing, or (2) he took her soiled panties as a souvenir and re-dressed her in panties 2 sizes too large with some foreign DNA on them, in order to keep from ever being discovered.

To be honest, I felt from the beginning that he would rather face whatever penalties the U.S. would subject him to far and above what the Thailand authorities would render.

I don't believe he had an attack of guilt, just tremendous fear of what would happen to him over there.

And it sickens me that he was treated so much like a celebrity on the overseas flight.....

The best thing that could happen to him (now that his face is well known to the world) is that he be released from jail -- and let the people in the streets give him his due.

agapemomma

08-30-2006, 02:04 PM

He also said many times, "I love JonBenet..... She's my little girl."

lynda_a_c

08-30-2006, 02:05 PM

Sorry but I think he's just a very sick person who wished he was present, it doesn't mean he was, just that if it were MK, that's how he would wish to see it.

EDDIEisMINE

08-30-2006, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by agapemomma
I have no pity for John Mark Karr. I feel badly that he had such trauma in the beginning of his life, but let's not forget that he is an admitted/confessed pedophile. That's the demon he's possessed by. I believe he could do something to change that, but clearly he doesn't desire any change, other than his own gender (supposedly).

Has no one heard the audio tapes of his 'very excited' detailed description of how JonBenet was killed? It's bone-chilling.

The only ways he could've been present at the time of her death are: (1) by means of a video of her killing, or (2) he took her soiled panties as a souvenir and re-dressed her in panties 2 sizes too large with some foreign DNA on them, in order to keep from ever being discovered.

To be honest, I felt from the beginning that he would rather face whatever penalties the U.S. would subject him to far and above what the Thailand authorities would render.

I don't believe he had an attack of guilt, just tremendous fear of what would happen to him over there.

And it sickens me that he was treated so much like a celebrity on the overseas flight.....

The best thing that could happen to him (now that his face is well known to the world) is that he be released from jail -- and let the people in the streets give him his due.

I agree except what do you mean that the only 2 ways he could of been present are from taking soiled panties? Do you mean he may of taken them or someone else and gave them to him?
I think if more than 1 person was involved there would be more evidence but who the heck knows.

EDDIEisMINE

08-30-2006, 02:09 PM

Oh yeah, he loves her. That's why he fantasizes of strangling her and hitting her over the head and wants to be the one who did this? He is sick. I think he may of well really been there.

irishlady

08-30-2006, 03:19 PM

i completely agree with agapemomma...let the people be the ones to judge jmk and dole out old fashioned justice.don't get me wrong,i abhor violence but in this case i would make an exception.he's evil.i think the reason there was no evidence of an intruder is because there was no intruder.i keep going back to the fibres found on the garotte and in the paint tray,the ones from patsy's jumper,also the fibre found in jb's pants from her fathers shirt.i wish i could let go of the thought that this little girl was killed by someone close to her but i can't and until the bpd prove otherwise i know what i think.imo

poplife

08-30-2006, 06:34 PM

Thailand is not a third world country.

Where has it been stated that he was "in big trouble" in Thailand?

magpie1

08-30-2006, 10:34 PM

John Karr's half-brother, Nate, and his father, Wexford, visited John Karr in jail in Boulder, Colorado. It was the first time they've seen him in five years.

The story can be found here:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=2373703&page=1

Jayelles

08-31-2006, 01:43 AM

Unfortunately, that is what "confessors" tend to do - place themselves at murder scenes.

The police have to deal with (false) confessions all the time. It's a fascinating topic. I was reading an article about why people make false confessions (it was a link from one of the news websites... CNN?).

I was shicked to learn that Mary Lacy didn't realise that the information about JonBenet's bracelet was in the public domain. A simple search of any of the main forums could have saved her a great deal of embarassment. I would have thought Michael Tracey should have known that too - since he's made three documentaries about the case and is writing a book!

tjsmom

08-31-2006, 07:04 AM

:no: Karr surely has been destrying his own life for a long time! he really has no place in society and something needs to be done with him and his kind! i think there is a whole lot more to him than we all know! :patriot:

lost indie

08-31-2006, 09:33 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spyder88
[B]He was in big trouble in Thailand and needed to get out of the country fast. He was facing prison in that country and he knew he'd be killed in there, so he trumped up a confession in the JonBenet case so he would be brought back to the USA. He used his "Get out of jail free" card and voila`...it worked like a charm. This freak is dumb like a fox.

Was he? :shrug: For what? Do you have a link?

Frankincensed

08-31-2006, 12:16 PM

Nor have I heard that he was in "big trouble in Thailand"

Nor should Thailand be thought of as a Third World country in the snese of poor and undeveloped "I have friends whose daughter works there in the poorest of communities"

If you base your claim on the poorest of communities than the US could be considered poor and undeveloped.

TTBOMK Karr went to Thailand only after he was offered a job there.

"Those thoughts should be enough to lock him up"

Funny, I think people who publicly advocate locking others up for their private thoughts should be locked up.

"No one here knows how many children he hurt in Bangkok while he was there."

I believe the official estimate is 0.

This is a 40-some man who has been around children his entire life. There have never been any accusations or even allegations that he harmed a child.

Yes, he appears to be highly disturbed and in need of medical/psychiatric help. Is he a threat to anyone? Seems unlikely.

Even the child pornography charges are low-end - a misdemeanor charge for a total of 6 images.

Pornography collectors (or addicts if you prefer) are not known to be discriminating or limited in their tastes. Most arrests involve thousands of images.

Let us not forget that there have been more than a few parents arrested ion child porn charges for having pictures of their own children in the bath or even clothed on the beach.

This schmuck indeed brought most of his troubles on himself - but he is now being demonized in a feeding frenzy.

Frankincensed

08-31-2006, 12:20 PM

Actually what I wanted to say [which got away from me] was that it is an old police truism that seems very applicable in this case:

Killers don't call; callers don't kill.

Frankincensed

08-31-2006, 02:27 PM

"I think he is just a murderer who gets off killing kids just to spite the parents"

Why would you think this?

Frankincensed

08-31-2006, 02:58 PM

Now the guy in this story (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OR_PANTY_THIEF_OROL-?SITE=OREUG&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT/) is who it would not be unreasonable to predict is likely to violently offend.

It is these kind of behaviors along with secret planning as found on his computer that are real indicators.

datagal

08-31-2006, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Frankincensed
"I think he is just a murderer who gets off killing kids just to spite the parents"

Why would you think this?

Yeah, why would the previous poster think this? Hmmm Interesting.

irishlady

08-31-2006, 04:23 PM

there are lots of things i would stand by my sons on(i've got seven)but i think that if jmk were my son i would have to turn my back on him...offences against children are in my opinion totally indefensible and i would not be able to give my support to any of my beloved sons if they were like him...someone on another thread said that the charges in california against him are 'just misdemeanours'ie child pornography images...don't people realise that if you subscribe to this stuff that you're condoning what is being done to these children?it disgusts me and i hope if he has to face the charges that the law will come down on him like a ton of bricks...sorry for the long post

aproudmom

09-01-2006, 06:23 AM

All I have to say is I am glad the sicko is off the streets.
He is the one that said he did it in front of the camera's. I just hope they can find more on him so he goes away for along time...JMO

KM

Lili007

09-01-2006, 12:17 PM

Karr incriminated himself. I read through this whole thread looking for some mention of the FACT that Karr himself told a whole nation (not to mention broadcasts all over the world) on camera that he took JonBenet from school, brought her to her house and took her to the basement, that "he was with her when she died" and that "it was an accident" and that he answered "no" when asked if he was an innocent man. He didn't have to say any of those things. He could have shouted his innocence, or, if he couldn't be bothered, he could have just shut up.

Moreover, he could have abstained from being a pedophile, or saught help to overcome his perverted behaviour and desires.

So let's have it again:

Who "ruined" Karr's life? AND/OR his children's? ...........

JMO
Lili

EDDIEisMINE

09-01-2006, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by datagal

Yeah, why would the previous poster think this? Hmmm Interesting.

Why would I think this? hummmm, because it's what I think I guess.:rolleyes:

EDDIEisMINE

09-01-2006, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by datagal

Yeah, why would the previous poster think this? Hmmm Interesting.

Interesting that you find this interesting

deputydi

09-01-2006, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Lili007
Karr incriminated himself. I read through this whole thread looking for some mention of the FACT that Karr himself told a whole nation (not to mention broadcasts all over the world) on camera that he took JonBenet from school, brought her to her house and took her to the basement, that "he was with her when she died" and that "it was an accident" and that he answered "no" when asked if he was an innocent man. He didn't have to say any of those things. He could have shouted his innocence, or, if he couldn't be bothered, he could have just shut up.

Moreover, he could have abstained from being a pedophile, or saught help to overcome his perverted behaviour and desires.

So let's have it again:

Who "ruined" Karr's life? AND/OR his children's? ...........

JMO
Lili
It doesn't look like this notoriety has garnered too much sympathy for Mr Karr, which is a good thing. I absolutely cannot see him as an "innocent" who was wrongly suspected of a horrible crime. This nutcase injected himself into this case by the sick emails to the prof. Did he not think that someone along the way might take them seriously and turn them over to LE??? I don't understand why Mary Lacy is taking such a hit -- she tried to keep this quiet but the Thai officials and Mr Karr himself were loving the limelight.

jerzeegirl

09-01-2006, 09:03 PM

JMK ruined his own life!
And maybe even some childrens lives.
JMO

TobyTiger

09-01-2006, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by Frankincensed
Nor have I heard that he was in "big trouble in Thailand"

"No one here knows how many children he hurt in Bangkok while he was there."

I believe the official estimate is 0.

This is a 40-some man who has been around children his entire life. There have never been any accusations or even allegations that he harmed a child.

Yes, he appears to be highly disturbed and in need of medical/psychiatric help. Is he a threat to anyone? Seems unlikely.

Even the child pornography charges are low-end - a misdemeanor charge for a total of 6 images.

(snipped for space)

Agree! There has been no confirmation that Karr was facing any charges in Thailand. He had just started a teaching job the week he was arrested and had been having medical treatments there, presumably the initial stages of transgender surgery. I also agree that he is in need of psychiatric care, and probably has been for years. The first clue that he wasn't involved with JonBenet's murder should have been his equal fascination with Polly Klaas...whom we all know was murdered by Richard Allen Davis, who now resides on Death Row at San Quentin. So much so that he moved his family to Petaluma in 1997. The misdemeanor child pornography possession charges in California are 5 images, all from the same date on his computer.

jerzeegirl

09-01-2006, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by TobyTiger

Agree! There has been no confirmation that Karr was facing any charges in Thailand. He had just started a teaching job the week he was arrested and had been having medical treatments there, presumably the initial stages of transgender surgery. I also agree that he is in need of psychiatric care, and probably has been for years. The first clue that he wasn't involved with JonBenet's murder should have been his equal fascination with Polly Klaas...whom we all know was murdered by Richard Allen Davis, who now resides on Death Row at San Quentin. So much so that he moved his family to Petaluma in 1997. The misdemeanor child pornography possession charges in California are 5 images, all from the same date on his computer.

from what ive heard from talking head defense attorneys on tv, they say the whole child porn thing very well can be thrown out if they can some how get a judge to believe that he was doing research. I dont know if the prosecution in ca can use the tracey emails against him, probably not because it was after the fact. Have to wait and see.

TobyTiger

09-01-2006, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

Had who fooled? Most people were waiting for DNA results. We're you, or were you "fooled?"
And when Karr agreed to submit to a DNA sample, while in Thailand, the officials from Boulder County didn't have the DNA test kit with them, so he had to be brought back to the U.S...
Are there no test kits in Thailand that they could've purchased or used through a hospital? I don't have the answers, but it does seem unnecessary to transport him back to the U.S. with nothing to tie him into the murder of JonBenet.
:confused:

sunsplashed

09-01-2006, 11:02 PM

I don't have sympathy for Karr, but I'll admit, I have no idea what should be done with him. IMO, prison won't help him. Pedophilia can't be cured, only managed with psychotherapy and hormones. Perhaps Karr was right in seeking a sex change operation.

I don't think he's going to make any money off this fiasco, though.

The people I really feel sorry for are his children. They are innocent of any crime and the fact that their father is JMK should NEVER be held against them.

JMO

harz

09-02-2006, 12:17 AM

I dont know if Karr's life is completely ruined that Karr will feel the need to end his own misery, but he seems not sucidical. I am sure theres handful of people who have sympathy feeling for Karr and willing to open their wings for him. Some people would see Karr that he's gentle, mental ill, maybe believes he never hurt or touch children in sexual ways, others would think he just crazy but I am sure Karr will be invite in some certain types of soceity. Its unlikely Karr's life is completely ruined, its just path he choose and there are other people having the same path as his, they might get lucky if they cross the same path to share their interests and create so call tiny soceity of their own or he would become a flock under some fanatics like Warren Jeffs'. But I do agree about DA got excited by throwing murder charges against Karr before the evidences, that was DA's mistake and it should not be tolerate.

sunsplashed

09-02-2006, 11:19 AM

I have empathy and sympathy for the pain Karr suffered in his childhood. I feel bad that he was the victim of much abuse.

I feel bad (for him and for others) that he's a pedophile. I think Karr must not want to do these things or he wouldn't have been seeking a sex change operation. Of course, I don't condone or have sympathy for hurting children, no matter what.

He's proof that ALL children should be made to feel that while their actions aren't always right, they, themselves are inherently good just as they are. Maybe if Karr had had a better start in life, he wouldn't be who is today.

Just speculation. I don't know.

TobyTiger

09-02-2006, 01:24 PM

RogerV

09-02-2006, 02:25 PM

AT LAST someone has observed that some good has resulted from this whole mess. Everyone has been so busy bashing the DA and Boulder authorities that they seem to have completely overlooked the fact that a potentially very dangerous pedophile has been stopped BEFORE he could do any harm. This almost NEVER happens.

Yes, the charges he faces in California are fairly minor, but he is now at least known to the world at large.

LI_Mom

09-03-2006, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by victims feel
I do not know of any posters NOT ONE who have overlooked that Karr has been TEMPORARILY stopped. Perhaps you missed them all?

That does not change the fact that DA violated due process and best yet...has own it.....that fact she has owned it is really impressive in my books..

DA owning a mess.....never happens...

My thoughts, exactly.

It WAS refreshing to see a politician take repsonsibility for a mistake.

But I'd hardly call bringing him back to the US to face a couple of years in jail on a misdemeanor & then release him to the streets is cause for a national celebration.

LI_Mom

09-03-2006, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Jayelles

I was shicked to learn that Mary Lacy didn't realise that the information about JonBenet's bracelet was in the public domain. A simple search of any of the main forums could have saved her a great deal of embarassment. I would have thought Michael Tracey should have known that too - since he's made three documentaries about the case and is writing a book!

Could she have been THAT uninformed about what this case has become? A lay person only needs concentrate on this case for a couple of months to get up to speed on almost every aspect of the investigation & what's going on at various forums.

If not, she's lying about what she knew & when she knew it.

Or....

If not that, then she's pretty incompetent & the people advising her are incompetent also.

Louisadelmar

09-03-2006, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by irishlady
[...].i keep going back to the fibres found on the garotte and in the paint tray,the ones from patsy's jumper,also the fibre found in jb's pants from her fathers shirt.i wish i could let go of the thought that this little girl was killed by someone close to her but i can't and until the bpd prove otherwise i know what i think.imo

I think one could make a case for secondary or tertiary transfer transfer of Patsy's jacket fiber, if indeed they are 'matching' to her jacket. I hold completely in abeyance the info about John's fibers since I am very suspicious that that may have been misdirection by the questioners. I have seen articles where it was said the fibers were blue and where they were said to be brown. There was great conversation at one point that the fibers were from John"s blue bathrobe.

OT - Is your keyboard broken?

Jaded-Angel

09-03-2006, 04:07 PM

:flamemad: GET REAL! I say, he got the attention he wanted, and it SHOULD BE A CRIME to say the things he freakin' said! LOCK HIM UP! LETS BE SURE HE GETS HIS MEDS. He didn't aquire this problem in the last 30 days! We're talking years that he's been a sick ******* and he knew it! ~Jaded... by some SICK-#@*% LIKE HIM!

Jaded-Angel

09-03-2006, 04:27 PM

[B][SIZE=3][FONT=courier new][COLOR=crimson]

I can't bring myself to apologize for having COMMON SENSE..so your out of luck there.
LOOK...IT IS NOT NORMAL to say,
"hey, ya know...my Grandma french kissed me when I was 10 and really made me feel like a piece of crap, so I think I'm gonna do that to my grandkid!"
"well, my Mom was beat every day, and her husband molested me. We both lived through it, so what the hell!"

I have found that the majority says quite the opposite:

"My mother was beaten by her husband, and I WILL NEVER let that happen to me!"
"My step-father abused my mother and her children. The first sign of anything remotely similar to that will be the last."
"My parents were alcoholics, and very abusive, I WILL NEVER BE EITHER!"

When you come of age and/or out on your own, YOU decide who your going to be, and how you want to live. YOU decide your values and morals. YOU know by now what is right or wrong no matter what has been put in your head, you can see the differance. YOU CHOOSE.

LI_Mom

09-03-2006, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Holly
Is Karr "on the streets?"

It would be very interesting and enlightening to read what all of you DA bashers would be posting if the Boulder DA had simply ignored Karr.

After all, he SAID that he was present when JBR died.

What a load of codswollop.

You know very well he's NOT on the streets yet, but won't be facing a very long jail term on those misdemeanor charges.

Nobody has said the DA should have ignored Karr but it's painfully obvious that she had barely begun the investigation into this suspect BEFORE she rushed to have him arrested.

I do NOT believe all the 'excuses' she gave for why this unfolded the way it did & believe some of them were politically motivated both in Boulder AND in Thailand.

I think the WORST outcome of this whole venture was hearing the DA publically announce that there is NO EVIDENCE that the public does not know about this case & that the DNA is next to worthless.

We now know it's next to impossible to EVER solve the case & the Ramseys will NEVER be excluded.

So yes, I think it's appropriate to do a little DA bashing.

LI_Mom

09-03-2006, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by jerzeegirl

from what ive heard from talking head defense attorneys on tv, they say the whole child porn thing very well can be thrown out if they can some how get a judge to believe that he was doing research. I dont know if the prosecution in ca can use the tracey emails against him, probably not because it was after the fact. Have to wait and see.

That's what I've been saying from the beginning.

It's possible that his descent into pedophilia was brought on by his obsessions with the Polly Klaas murder & then into researching JB and it pushed him over the edge into a severe mental illness.

You have a mentally ill person who is being encouraged (By Tracey & Hutchens) to share more & more of his 'ideas' by someone who is also obsessed with the same topic & it's a recipe for disaster.

After all this time, we still have not heard about a single child he hurt or touched inappropriately. The closest we come to an allegation is with his ex-WIFE when she was 13 & he was a teenager himself.

LI_Mom

09-03-2006, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by Louisadelmar

I think one could make a case for secondary or tertiary transfer transfer of Patsy's jacket fiber, if indeed they are 'matching' to her jacket. I hold completely in abeyance the info about John's fibers since I am very suspicious that that may have been misdirection by the questioners. I have seen articles where it was said the fibers were blue and where they were said to be brown. There was great conversation at one point that the fibers were from John"s blue bathrobe.

OT - Is your keyboard broken?

I never heard about brown fibers.

I have heard the fibers were black or possibly a (very dark) navy blue.

As far as the fibers, there might be another explanation other than John's black shirt. As well as explaining the mystery of the duct tape.

We know that Aunt Pam went to the house after it was supposed to be sealed & removed a lot of personal belongings, including some dolls that JB owned. Why worry about dolls at a time like that? Strange.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5782&page=1&pp=12

http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t1672.html

LI_Mom

09-03-2006, 08:03 PM

victims feel,

What makes me question JK's emails & calls is that one 'fact' (if it IS a fact) that we DO know about his past is that he wrote a college paper about JB and his prof told him it was SO GOOD that he should consider writing a book.

We also know that author Stephen Singular contacted Hunter & told him that he was going to pursue his investigation into the child porn/pageants angle.

Singular's book came out around 1999

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1893224007/qid=1152388445/sr=2-3/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_3/103-1087584-6859009?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

and I think it's possible that this book was another 'motivator' for JK's obsession.

I just hope JK is carefully examined by forensic psychiatrists and the courts don't merely want to sentence him on the misdemeanor charges and wash their hands of all this mess.

JK certainly went 'crazy' at some point and I have a feeling he had plenty of help on the trip. It would be a terrible thing if other mentally imbalanced people were 'encouraged' by JB obsessed writers or wannabe 'heroes.'

And now we have to ask ourselves, how do we protect society from what Karr has become? Scary & sad, too.

Smooka

09-03-2006, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by watson
I'll be the first to agree he didn't have much of a life left to ruin. Apparently nothing more than his sick fantasies and his gender identity crisis to keep him company. But then came the dumbest posse in the west, the Boulder DA, and her investigators who have announced this guy to the WHOLE world (even Thailand) as the guy who did it, AND HE DIDN'T. What are they going to do now? Apologize?? Who will remember that? This guy had trouble getting a job in a slum of Bangcock Thailand, who is going to hire him now, in this solar system? On top of that, all his personal e-mails and sick fantasies, pedophilia, and transvestite desires have been brodcast and made public to the whole world and every late night comedian. We should all remember, that this sick loser has NEVER been convicted of even ONE crime. That as far as we know despite his mental problems, he's NEVER hurt a fly. Even, as I understand it the CA charges against him from 2001 are the lowest order misdemeanors, and they've yet to be tried.
For a public offical of CO (elected DA Mary Tracy), a Homeland Security exec. from the current fedreral government, a Thai General, and all the media outlets to go on tv and the internet and announce that this guy did it, when they've not one shred of proof it's true.......... is in my opinion just wrong.... and an outrage. What does anyone else think?
P.S....yeah I know the guy's got major mental health issues, but if we had a government financed mental health system in the US, maybe he would not still be sick, or still be sending sick e-mails to tv producers.

:punch: He brought that from himself......... Amen

LI_Mom

09-03-2006, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Holly
DUE PROCESS?!?

Surely, you are joking.

The most important part of "due process" is according persons in whom LE or the Justice Department is interested the PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE.

If there are a dozen posters here who even know the history and meaning of either term, I'll eat my hat.

I'm confused.

You're the one who's proud of the DA for arresting Karr for JB's murder and getting him off the streets of Bangkok (even though he hasn't been convicted of ANY CRIME) yet you're bringing up "presumption of innocence" as if that's going to help your argument?

LI_Mom

09-03-2006, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by Holly
Crimenentlies?!?

Do you know anything about criminal law and how it works?

Ever heard of probable cause?

That is the guiding principle that determines the activities of [list=1]
Law Enforcement
District Attorneys
And leads to trials.
[/list=1]

There may have been a better way for Boulder to have handled Karr but if nothing had been done and Karr had been released by the Thailand, the international uproar would be beyond imagining.

After all, Karr confessed to the crime or at least guilty knowledge.

International uproar?

John Karr was wanted by Calif. for jumping bail before his trial. He was hardly an international star before Boulder announced they arrested the man responsible for killing JB.

Why didn't DHS arrange to arrest him on the porn charges & bring him back to Calif. to stand trial?

What WAS Lacy's rush to arrest him when the ONLY 'evidence' she had were his 'crazy' emails to a guy who keeps fingering suspects in the case or his phone calls to a 'friend' of Davis?

Sorry, Lacy goofed big time & now 10 years later, the focus is back on John Ramsey again.

betinasue

09-03-2006, 10:27 PM

/QUOTE] sorry to say, there's alot of folks that were fooled!:read:

TuscanDreams

09-05-2006, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by TobyTiger
And when Karr agreed to submit to a DNA sample, while in Thailand, the officials from Boulder County didn't have the DNA test kit with them, so he had to be brought back to the U.S...:

JMO- I think that Karr needed to return to the USA to face the charges in CA on child porn. He is a dangerous pedophile. However, the Boulder DA acted in error by extradicting him to Boulder.

If he'd have stayed in CA, they could have easily done the DNA tests and saved CO a ton of money.

This DA is why a special prosecutor needs to be appointed if this case is to ever be solved.

sunsplashed

09-05-2006, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom

Could she have been THAT uninformed about what this case has become? A lay person only needs concentrate on this case for a couple of months to get up to speed on almost every aspect of the investigation & what's going on at various forums.

If not, she's lying about what she knew & when she knew it.

Or....

If not that, then she's pretty incompetent & the people advising her are incompetent also.

Until recently, I lived in Boulder. I think Mary Lacy is that incompetent, however, when I expressed this view prior to JMK being ruled out as a suspect, it was met with total disbelief.

Honestly, he may not have been correct about everything, but at least Steve Thomas worked and put in a lot of hours. I can't blame him for resigning from the case.

JMO

sunsplashed

09-05-2006, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom

I never heard about brown fibers.

I have heard the fibers were black or possibly a (very dark) navy blue.

As far as the fibers, there might be another explanation other than John's black shirt. As well as explaining the mystery of the duct tape.

We know that Aunt Pam went to the house after it was supposed to be sealed & removed a lot of personal belongings, including some dolls that JB owned. Why worry about dolls at a time like that? Strange.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5782&page=1&pp=12

http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t1672.html

IMO, if you look at the photos of the house, PR didn't keep a very neat and orderly home, even with the help of a housekeeper. There were probably all kinds of fibers in that house.

Even Steve Thomas, in his book, didn't feel fibers were very important information in this case.

No links, so...

JMO

Mrs. Y

09-05-2006, 06:51 PM

http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060905/NEWS/60905014

barskin&co.

09-06-2006, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by vaughancauthen
<snip>That would not be a man to kill or even rape JonBenet, or any little girl. He probably took part in the kidnapping to be with her and protect her.<snip>

Interesting idea. I guess he kind of blew it, didn't he?

Seriously, I think you need to read up a little on this subject. Your knowledge of the facts is a little rusty, to say the least (e.g. death by strangling with a garotte is not an accident.)

barskin&co.

09-07-2006, 11:30 AM

Good.

trt

09-07-2006, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

And how! I just can't dredge up any pity at all for Karr...not that I'm trying.

Yeah, me either. He knew what he was doing when he inserted himself into this case, whether he had anything to do with it or not.

cantaloupe

09-07-2006, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom

After all this time, we still have not heard about a single child he hurt or touched inappropriately. The closest we come to an allegation is with his ex-WIFE when she was 13 & he was a teenager himself.

WEll I am not willing to concede that. He talked a lot about various kids he messed with in his emails. I think we need to see what that investigation reveals before we start doing the "poor old John" routine.'

And he got JUST what he wanted with his false confession---attention, fame, access. He probably feels great right now.

Athena

09-07-2006, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

And how! I just can't dredge up any pity at all for Karr...not that I'm trying.

I can't either. Whether he killed JRB or not he interjected himself into this case. In addition to that he is a sick, perverted pedophile and I will not/cannot display and empathy or sympathy for this man. He needs to be off the street. jmo

Athena

09-07-2006, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom

<snip>

After all this time, we still have not heard about a single child he hurt or touched inappropriately. The closest we come to an allegation is with his ex-WIFE when she was 13 & he was a teenager himself.

Really?

But that is not the way people and court paperwork in Marion County recall it.

Karr is a man who, while wanted as a fugitive on child pornography charges,

In 1984, when Karr was 19, he married a local girl, Quientana Shotts, who was 13 at the time, county court records show. Shotts filed for an annulment the following year, complaining that she was "fearful for her life and safety." In a response filed with the court, Karr contested Shotts' age, saying she was in fact 14.

In the affidavit filed with her divorce petition, Lara Karr said her husband "was told by one school in or about '97 or '98 that he would not be asked to continue to serve as a substitute teacher because he had a tendency to be too affectionate with children."

In November of that year, a judge issued a restraining order for Karr to stay at least 100 yards away from his ex-wife and children -- ages 8, 9 and 10 at the time -- for three years.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/17/ramsey.suspect.ap/index.html

bullmoose

09-07-2006, 01:28 PM

I'm sure that Karr is still being intensely investigated by the Boulder DA and FBI and whoever else is presently on case. I have not listened to all his tapes that are ou there; frankly it creeps me out in a way Stephen King's stories don't come close to. It will be interesting to see what is turned up on Karr when all is said and done. But is it coincidence or not? If there was no DNA match, he still could have been there, if there was two or more involved. But was he there or a thousand miles away? Sick fantasies, years later, don't prove involvement in the crime, they prove that he is a pervert, but not much else. If he is involved in this or any cases like this, hopefully the authorities will find evidance of it. Right now, its not clear what they have, outside the California misdemeanor charges. bullmoose

Magnolia01

09-07-2006, 02:26 PM

Well, as for Karr the Jimmy Buffet quote "it's my own damned fault" comes to mind.

BUT: I have to agree that it's shameful our country can't do better on the mental health front! Surely someone knew how ill he was and could have gotten him help before he was too far gone :shrug:

trt

09-07-2006, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by vaughancauthen
His handwriting is an eerie exact match to the ransom note, and he never said he killed her. He said he was there when she died. If the handwriting matches, then he was there when she died.

Many have said that Patsy's handwriting was an *exact* match as well. Also, him being seen on the bus at around 12:00 really doesn't fit in with the timeline of the case, seeing as how John R. himself said that after taking JB to bed at around 10 pm, he stayed up and helped Burke put together a toy. Then he helped Burke get ready for bed, took a pill and then read himself until he went to sleep. Even allowing 30 minutes for each of these events puts us after 11:00 for John going to bed, which would give the killer only an hour to wake JB up, give her pineapple, place the note, strangle her, hit her across the head, tie up her limbs, cover her over, think about taking the window back out, fail at the attempt, find another way out, and make it over a mile away to a bus.

TobyTiger

09-07-2006, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by hohum

"asserted his right to a speedy trial "

I would think Karr gave up any rights as to how "speedy" he wants his trial to be when he fled the country. I suggest they wait 5 years, the same amount of time he has been on the run.
Good one! I believe the purpose behind the "speedy trial" is to try to circumvent the computer experts from using the technology developed over the last five years, which may add charges to the original ones.

7Sandi7

09-07-2006, 10:15 PM

in this country began in the '80s when Reagan began "deinstitutioanlizing" people. The general idea was good in that it freed many who were herded around like cattle and beaten. There were programs put in place to keep from housing those with developmental and mental deficits. Their civil rights began to be recognized. On the other side of the coin, there ARE those who need to be cared for 24/7 - those who refuse medications, those who pose threat of harm to self and others.

Karr has his rights. No one can force him into treatment and if they DID, it would be short-term and in HIS case, highly ineffective.

So now what?:shrug:

:7}

Bearkin

09-07-2006, 10:38 PM

This is my first post in this forum and even though I've read hundreds of the other posts, hopefully I won't be duplicating anyone's particular opinions. But, these are my unprofessional observations about John Karr and his involvement. Also hoping this post is in the appropriate place.

John Karr is such an eerie individual, his past definitely needs a more thorough investigation. Find the families he's worked for overseas. Talk to students he's taught. Look at every photo and video taping from any beauty pageant JB participated in. Check airflights, bus schedules, rental car agencies in Denver on Dec. 25, 1996. I'm honestly hoping something will rise out of JK's trail with enough evidence to either have him spend the rest of his life behind bars or in an institution. He does not need to be on our streets. Instead of putting down the Boulder DA's office, we should thank them for bringing this pervert to the world's attention. There's no telling how many or how horrific crimes he may commit against children in the future.

My gut feeling says he had something to do with JB's death. His DNA didn't match.. neither did the Ramsey's. Would he have left any DNA if he were wearing latex gloves? Could that also be why there were no fingerprints on the ransom note? Could it be why there were no other fingerprints on the fruit bowl from which supposedly, the pineapple came from? Which JK also says he fed to her. Is there any mention whether or not there was pineapple at the party the family attended that evening? Is it possible JK, deposited someone else's DNA? I've heard the DNA from the crime scene had been contaminated, if so how far would DNA evidence prove anything during a debate in court?

The ransom note holds clues. I don't know whether or not there were two people at the crimescene. When the note says "We are a group of individuals".. "two gentlemen watching over your daughter".. "we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics" . Or, is this one man's way of trying to throw the law off the trail of single person? The ransom note also says: "I will call you"... "I advise you"... "I do not particulary like you"...... "any deviation from my instructions". That tends to sound like a single person writing the note.

Not only are there several points for a seemingly positive comparison with JK's handwriting, but the reference to "familiar with law enforcement, etc." draws an eerie parallel to the August, 2001, People's Opposition to Defendent's Motion to Suppress Evidence when JK was arrested on the misdemeanor child porn charges. Karr told the detective that he "had a great affinity for law enforcement".

The S.B.T.C. signature, not only being similar to the "Shall Be The Conqueror" in the yearbook and (even though I haven't seen them) notes of which one of his ex-wives said he'd signed to her in a similar manner. Is this all just coincidence?

Was JK even in Boulder on that Christmas Day? It's possible to fly into the Denver International Airport, in less than three hours from almost any location in the U.S. Maybe renting a car, going by bus, on into Boulder.. another 30 minutes. One of his wives told of how she thought JK was giving her some type of drug before bedtime.. saying she would go to sleep at night and wake up and an entire day or more had passed. Could this be an explanation as to why his wife didn't miss him for numerous hours? The statements made by JK's family saying he "never" missed a Christmas with his family is questionable. In October, 2001, there was a restraining order prohibiting JK from being around his children for 3 years. So, in 2006, does "never" mean, maybe all but 3, or could it also mean, maybe all but 4??

Why does it have to be someone familiar with the house? If someone came in through a basement window.. they'd already be near where the crime scene happened. What he/they would have had to do.. was explore the house while the Ramseys were gone, to find JB's bedroom. If he/they watched the house and entered as soon as the Ramseys left, they'd had time to explore the house and write the ransom note.

Psychic Dorothy Allison's sketch of whom she felt committed the crime is very similar to the recent photo of JK, which was displayed next to it online. By comparing it to the photo on JK's resume, the resemblence is even more striking. I'd like to compare it to a 1996 photo of JK.

I believe kidnapping was the original intention of whoever did this. I believe, someone like JK, being so in love and so obcessed with JB, once she was actually in his arms, couldn't control his perverted desires for her anymore. In his mind, he probably expected her to recipicate those feelings, but since she didn't, he used what was available to him, in an attempt to forcibly control her into participating. When he realizes JB is dead, he becomes angry at her for dying and delivers the injuries that fractured her skull. Maybe he didn't confess to killing her because in his twisted mind.. he didn't.. it was JB's fault that she simply died, rather than respond to his affection. He realizes he's lost complete control of his victim. He exits the house, probably even forgetting all about the ransom note that would serve no purpose now.

If John Karr's interest in the JonBenet Ramsey and Polly Klaas cases was merely research for writing a book.. is there a partial transcript anywhere? Is their proof he was writing anything? Why was he considering a sex change? If he hadn't been extridicted back to the US and had gone through with this, as a female wouldn't he pose even more a threat and as a woman, he/she would be given even more trust and opportunity to spend time with young girls?

harz

09-08-2006, 01:56 AM

Those are really pretty good points. If Karr big mouthed himself, then why hasn't he opened his mouth about his colleagues who were also involved? Did the police find out if the airport has records of whom took the flight between Alabama and Colorado that night? Karr's ex-wife would need to be heavy sedated because of different time zone, time to take round trip flights, travelling in vechile or shuttle like bus, and how long did he and others had been inside Ramsey house then. If they rented a car, there should be records somewhere, probably not in Karr's name. But maybe he was picked up by his colleagues. Wondering did Karr took the flight alone or with one of his colleagues to meet others in Colorado? Anyway, thats very good detective instincts you have. I didn't thought of that, since I quickly dismissed Karr as a suspect after the DNA and his alibis. Maybe he won't tell who else were involved because he might be threated, like maybe his family in danger if he say the names of others. Then it would mean DA made another mistake lol.

Kyndrid

09-08-2006, 03:24 AM

Originally posted by watson
<SNIP>

P.S....yeah I know the guy's got major mental health issues, but if we had a government financed mental health system in the US, maybe he would not still be sick, or still be sending sick e-mails to tv producers. [/B]:rolleyes: The guy drove around in a deLorean. He had enough money to go to college. He had jobs and presumably, insurance. He had enough money to take him to a foreign country that is known for its child porn. He had family who cared for him, KNEW him, and could have stepped up.

Don't blame the lack of government financed mental health care for this wacko. His probem had nothing to do with an inability to get help. The help was there and he had the means to get it. He just didn't want it. If anything, blame the government for not having stricter laws to lock people like this up.

I don't believe someone like this can be "cured" any more than a gay person can be cured anyway. It is what it is. Deal with reality and get him off the street. People need to start sticking up for the victims instead of the predators for a change.

You say they ruined John Karrs life. I say they saved a childs.

awareness

09-08-2006, 01:32 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/09/08/karr.tab.ap/index.html

The Boulder District Attorney's office on Thursday said it spent $23,656 investigating John Mark Karr.

The tab included nearly $6,000 for business class tickets to fly the former suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey case and an investigator back from Bangkok, Thailand.

An outline of expenses shows the 15-hour flight from Thailand, on which Karr sipped champagne, dined on fried king prawns and roast duck, cost the county $5,925.

----

IMO, I'd like him to reimburse the government now. there should be a law forcing it actually, since he lied.

:cuss:

msgatorslayer

09-08-2006, 01:51 PM

That's a small price to pay for the justice in this case.

Wish they would have used it back in 1996 to investigate the evidence better. IMO

Bearkin

09-08-2006, 02:05 PM

If what his ex-wife says in this interview is true, then it could be possible Karr drugged his wife at the time and whatever he used was capable of sedating someone for an extended period of time

-----
""In an interview that will air Sept. 11 on the syndicated program "The Dr. Keith Ablow Show" on Fox 5, Ray said that after marrying Karr, his behavior toward her turned abusive, he sexually and emotionally victimized her and maybe even drugged her.

She even recalled sleeping for two full days.

"My eyes would just be solid red [when I woke up in the morning]," she said. " I asked him that I know when I went to bed Tuesday and now I'm waking up on Thursday. I knew I had suspected it before, but this day I knew for positive. And I said something to him about it, and he just got angry." ""
------

Athena

09-08-2006, 06:04 PM

I posted this before on the archived board -- but I wonder if Karr is imprisoned with the porn charges if he will sue to have the state pay for his sex change operation. I understand in some states they do this if one has already started the procedure. jmo

awareness

09-08-2006, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer
That's a small price to pay for the justice in this case.

I'd agree with you if I felt "justice" was made. There was no justice for Jon Benet.

Holly - first off this discussion is about John Karr and Jon Benet, not the Iraq war. Coldwater stresses we should try to stay on TOPIC. Secondly, while I agree our President is a liar - its unrealistic that he personally would have to repay billions. Fact of the matter on that is CITIZENS backed him and still continue to back him. It IS a realistic thought that Karr could pay back less than $24 K over time or perhaps at once with any potental book/movie deal.

"wealthy" California?
:lol:

-- IMO

jerzeegirl

09-08-2006, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by hohum

If I lived in CA and they paid for Karr to have a sex change operation I would be mad as heck! :lol:

Now he is a man with no arm or facial hair and I don't really want to know about other parts of his body. :o

karr has no arm?

Athena

09-08-2006, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by Arizona

While a prisoner is incarcerated wouldnt any operation have to be medically necessary? Makes me wonder why any state would permit something that is not health threatening.

Well be prepared to get pizzed when you find out where your taxes may be going. This is just a couple of articles out of many that are happening all around the US:

Inmates in several other states have sued prison officials for sex-change operations. Like Kosilek, they argued that gender identity disorder is a serious illness that can lead to severe anxiety, depression, suicide attempts and self-castration. They argue that treatment for their condition is a "medical necessity" and denying it would violate the Eighth Amendment's prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-19-transgendered_x.htm

In Colorado, inmate Christopher "Kitty" Grey, who is serving 16 years to life for molesting an 8-year-old girl, is suing the state to provide him with a gender specialist he hopes will determine that he needs a sex-change operation. The state Department of Corrections is already giving Grey female hormones.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/08/19/transgendered_inmates_push_officials_for_sex_chang e_surgery/

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0202/05/ltm.18.html

Leanne Weich

09-09-2006, 04:32 AM

Originally posted by Spyder88
He was in big trouble in Thailand and needed to get out of the country fast. He was facing prison in that country and he knew he'd be killed in there, so he trumped up a confession in the JonBenet case so he would be brought back to the USA. He used his "Get out of jail free" card and voila`...it worked like a charm. This freak is dumb like a fox.

Do you have a link for this please?

breezy1234

09-09-2006, 06:51 AM

LisaM22

09-09-2006, 07:11 AM

"They've Ruined Karr's Life"

he may really of done it, we don't know, what he said and\or did should ruin his life, it was his actions not those of the da - jmho

if my child was murdered and someone was talking like he was, I would want them arrested and charged as well, if he was to mental to stand trial, lock him up in a mental institution until he is better - jmho

LisaM22

09-09-2006, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Arizona

I agree. So much as one conviction and they are locked up for life. There is no cure for pedophilia and we need to protect our children first.

I agree, the list doesn't work, lock them up and throw away the key - the list is a false security blanket that does more harm then good, once a person has done their time, they should be allowed to change, the list prevents that - that being said, I think the punishment should be such that these people are locked up for ever and at the very least on paper reporting to a PO forever if that is not going to happen - jmho

sunsplashed

09-09-2006, 01:01 PM

I agree with you, Arizona. Unfortunately, there is no cure for pedophilia. It only be managed through psychotherapy and hormone treatments, and even then, IMO, the management is tricky, at best.

JMO

MyrDawn

09-09-2006, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed
I agree with you, Arizona. Unfortunately, there is no cure for pedophilia. It only be managed through psychotherapy and hormone treatments, and even then, IMO, the management is tricky, at best.

JMO

And, the pedophiliac would have to continue the treatment the rest of their life. No guarantees they'd do that.

We had one living in our neighborhood. He was released from prison and came to live with his mother about half a block from us a couple years ago. I'll never forget how cold my blood ran as I read that dreaded "postcard". Thank goodness she sold her house a couple weeks ago and their moving. I pity his new neighbors, though.

topsailgrl

09-10-2006, 06:56 AM

http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060909/NEWS/609090333/1033/NEWS01

Sheriff Bill Cogbill would not discuss the details of the trip or why deputies left Boulder without bringing back the high-profile defendant on a local warrant for failing to appear at a 2001 hearing on charges of possessing child pornography .

But he alluded to larger issues in the case that could affect Sonoma County's five-count misdemeanor prosecution of the former Petaluma substitute teacher who famously confessed, apparently falsely, to the 1996 JonBenet Ramsey slaying .

"The dynamics evolve day to day," Cogbill said, adding to the mystery surrounding an already bizarre case. "There are huge dynamics going on that could change the whole course of this." He said he would be able to talk more freely early next week.

"There is a whole other dimension to this that I'll probably be able to talk about later, but not today," he said.

Cogbill said it is still the intention of local authorities to return Karr, 41, to Sonoma County to face charges.

"That could change," he added.

More in article: http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060909/NEWS/609090333/1033/NEWS01

simply quiet

09-10-2006, 07:21 AM

Can this case get any crazier?

Hmmmmmmmm.

napa

09-11-2006, 11:53 AM

Sounds to me like he will be facing charges a lot more serious than child porn in California.

MyrDawn

09-11-2006, 02:41 PM

From that report:
"Cogbill said it is still the intention of local authorities to return Karr, 41, to Sonoma County to face charges.

"That could change," he added."

I wonder why it could change...

bullmoose

09-11-2006, 03:50 PM

To Vaughancauthen: Your theory is bizarre; however it makes at least as much sense as most of the others. So much stuff doesn't make sense; the ransom? note appears to me to be borrowing from the movies and makes no sense to me from any normal point of view. When you mention Fargo came out that, it startled me, but you are right it did. Maybe you are on to something. bullmoose

Bearkin

09-11-2006, 04:03 PM

I'd like to respond to the following comments vaughancauthen.

1)"My theory is some fundamentalist group (not foreign) decided to kidnap the most famous of the little girls to scare parents into not parading their 6-year-olds in adult makeup."

This is as possible a theory as any, I suppose. But, just how famous was JonBenet before her untimely murder? Isn't kidnapping and ultimately murdering an innocent six-year old child, a rather extreme means of proving a point to those parents? As costly as those pageants can be for parents, there are also numerous contestants that come from families who aren't wealthy. Lastly, if you're sending a ransom note to someone who's wealthy "to really make a point", why not ask for millions? I also doubt the number of these pageants has decreased in the last ten years.

2)"He had a motive to be involved that is not pedophilia." and "This kidnapping was perfect for John Karr, who saw himself as a protector of little girls."

From everything I've read about JK.. he has "pedophile" written across his forehead. From the incriminating tapes that were recorded, to reasons he was dismissed from several jobs, to his pronounced love for JB while the news' cameras pointed him out to the world. In your previous posts, you quoted from those tapes.. is this someone you would entrust your children to? Are we honestly to believe JK's capable of being an innocent guardian of little girls on one hand and on the other, publically admitting to the world, he was in love with a six-year old beauty queen, let alone his taped twisted perversions? I think he has a split-personality thing going on, where he's capable of portraying the best qualities if needed, and equally, can act out on his worse qualities with no conscience. Who on earth would team up with this guy? He was fairly unknown at the time also.

I do agree with you, that if JK goes totally free and is back out on the streets, he will meet his demise. If he is imprisoned either in jail or an institute, he will have to be protected.

If JK was such a concerned professional and devoted to educating children, why didn't he stay and fight the charges that took his teaching license from him? Instead, he chose to not only leave behind his students, but his own sons and other members of his family, by fleeing and hiding out in other countries.

I can't help but question how JK has traveled around the world, yet seemingly been unemployed during a large part of the time he's been out of the U.S. Realizing that foreign English teachers can make a great deal of money, it seems to me, his expenses would have exceeded his income. Was this "devoted father of 3 boys" paying any child support??

I recently read about the house JK lived in prior to and after JB's death that has sat empty.. unsearched by anyone. Supposedly there are numerous items inside the house, but no one has lived there. If you move your family to another state, why not sell it or rent it? Wasn't it in the divorce agreement? Or, is something hiding there? If he was a resident of the U. S. and owned property in the U. S... and worked overseas.. wouldn't his income during those years have to be reported to the I.R.S.??