The Black Dahlia murder mystery

[mystic.star]

Of all of the murder mysteries I am aware of, and there are many, this one fascinates me the most, even more than Jack the Ripper. I have studied photos of Elizabeth Short and read everything about her in existence. As much as I wanted to know the identity of Deep Throat, the identity of the Black Dahlia's killer is a mystery I more want revealed in my lifetiime. I have read that there has been past speculation that the Kingsbury Run killer was suspected to have also killed Elizabeth Short. I am no detective, but I don't think so. Any thoughts? I'll be sure to check in on this one!

[DiddleySquat]

Hi! I think it's very interesting, too. A retired homicide detective by the name of Steve Hodel wrote a book about it. He claims to have found the killer. His own father. He uses standard police work along with a lot of dirty laundry from his own childhood. It's fascinating to read.

LINK TO BOOK (http://tinyurl.com/7e3ey)

Im not sure that the man who murdered her was the same man that was responsible for the Kingsbury Run murders but there is some interesting evidence that suggests its not entirely impossible. Jack Anderson Wilson is the one that John Gilmore has pegged as the Dahlia killer and Willimam T. Rasmussen wrote an interesting book tracking that mans whereabouts and uncovered evidence that one Jack Anderson Wilson was actually a suspect for either the Kingsbury Run murders of the Cleveland Torso murders. I forget which. John Gilmores severed is really good. The book by Rasmussen is a littler harder to get through but it has a wealth of information relating to all the above mentioned murders. This is the link that I first stumbled across that led to my purchasing both books.

http://www.williamtrasmussen.com/index.html

[DiddleySquat]

That looks interesting. I've only read the Hodel book. I actually found it pretty compelling, though.

:seeya:

[camracrazy]

I recently read the book "Severed" by John Gilmore. It was an interesting read about the murder of Elizabeth Short in LA in 1947. It has never officially been solved. You can read about it at the Crime Library here:


The Black Dahlia (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/dahlia/index_1.html)

I found the case of Jean Elizabeth Spangler at the Charley Project. I think she looks a lot like Elizabeth Short.

Similarities-

Both had dark hair

Both were trying to make it in the movies

Both were living in LA when they disappeared

Both dated service men

They were about the same age -
Jean's DOB was 09-02-1923
Elizabeth's DOB was 07-29-1924

If you compare their pictures, I think they look very much alike:

Jean Elizabeth Spangler (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/spangler_jean.html)


Elizabeth Short (http://www.bethshort.com/eshort.htm)

This link shows a picture of Georgette Bauerdorf, whose murder may be linked to Elizabeth Short's murder (scroll down). She also is very similiar looking to Jean Spangler.

Georgette
Bauerdorf (http://www.underworldtales.com/dahlia.htm)

Any thoughts?

[Opal Smithers]

I think I shouldn't have looked at those pictures right before going to bed.

:(

[camracrazy]

You should have seen the pics in the book. Great diet aid!

[Opal Smithers]

Originally posted by camracrazy
You should have seen the pics in the book. Great diet aid!

You know the link that said something like, don't click here if you are subject to a sensitive stomach or nightmares? I clicked on it.

:rolleyes:

:punch: <---- for me

[camracrazy]

I didn't see that. I was mainly looking for pics of Elizabeth to compare to the pics of Jean. I will note that I have been warned!!

(But man, now I'm curious!! I know I shouldn't look at them, and I'll probably want to barf if I do.)

[Opal Smithers]

Originally posted by camracrazy
I didn't see that. I was mainly looking for pics of Elizabeth to compare to the pics of Jean. I will note that I have been warned!!

(But man, now I'm curious!! I know I shouldn't look at them, and I'll probably want to barf if I do.)

Don't look.

I think this is extremely interesting. I really didn't know much about these crimes until I saw your links.

They do look alike.

[camracrazy]

I won't. I'm the only one awake in the house right now, and there is just one little lamp on and the computer. Plus I had to go down in the basement to put some laundry in the dryer!! I'm wearing my fuzzy slippers so if the boogy man came after me, I'd probably trip and fall flat on my face.... easy prey!! :D So I decided that under no circumstances should I let the boogy man get ahold of my brain!

[Opal Smithers]

Originally posted by camracrazy
I won't. I'm the only one awake in the house right now, and there is just one little lamp on and the computer. Plus I had to go down in the basement to put some laundry in the dryer!! I'm wearing my fuzzy slippers so if the boogy man came after me, I'd probably trip and fall flat on my face.... easy prey!! :D So I decided that under no circumstances should I let the boogy man get ahold of my brain!

:lol:

[Queen_of_Cheese]

Originally posted by camracrazy
I recently read the book "Severed" by John Gilmore. It was an interesting read about the murder of Elizabeth Short in LA in 1947. It has never officially been solved. You can read about it at the Crime Library here:


The Black Dahlia (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/dahlia/index_1.html)

I found the case of Jean Elizabeth Spangler at the Charley Project. I think she looks a lot like Elizabeth Short.

Similarities-

Both had dark hair

Both were trying to make it in the movies

Both were living in LA when they disappeared

Both dated service men

They were about the same age -
Jean's DOB was 09-02-1923
Elizabeth's DOB was 07-29-1924

If you compare their pictures, I think they look very much alike:

Jean Elizabeth Spangler (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/spangler_jean.html)


Elizabeth Short (http://www.bethshort.com/eshort.htm)

This link shows a picture of Georgette Bauerdorf, whose murder may be linked to Elizabeth Short's murder (scroll down). She also is very similiar looking to Jean Spangler.

Georgette
Bauerdorf (http://www.underworldtales.com/dahlia.htm)

Any thoughts?

I found a website that claims that Georgette and Elizabeth were friends, and it also claims to know who murdered Elizabeth:

http://www.gasdetection.com/MDS/m102599.html

Interesting story, I hadn't heard of Georgette till you mentioned her. I plan on doing more reading about this subject.

[camracrazy]

Originally posted by Queen_of_Cheese


I found a website that claims that Georgette and Elizabeth were friends, and it also claims to know who murdered Elizabeth:

http://www.gasdetection.com/MDS/m102599.html

Interesting story, I hadn't heard of Georgette till you mentioned her. I plan on doing more reading about this subject.

Jack Anderson Wilson was named in the book "Severed" that I mentioned. The author of the book, John Gilmore, claims that Wilson talked to him about the murders and even showed him a picture of Elizabeth Short that he carried around. Wilson allegedly gave many facts when speaking with Gilmore that only the killer would know. Too bad he died before anyone got any "official" answers out of him.

[Rayny]

I was on that site a long time ago and seen all these photos. They are worse than the photos from the Manson murders, IMO. I don't think it's possible to see anything worse than these.

I do have a fascination with this case though.

[Tersi]

oh geez....I looked.

[Onmiyogi]

I recently finished reading Black Dahlia Avenger. The book is written by Steve Hodel a former LAPD detective who advances the theory that the killer was none other than his own father, Dr. George Hodel.

The author put together a factual case that his father murdered not only Elizabeth Short (the Dahlia) but laso several other women including Jean French and Glady Kern. Both French and Kern were murdered about the same time as Short and there were obvious connections between these three crimes.

He documents his own investigation into the cases in a straightforward and compelling way. I believe his conclusions are correct.

Det. Hodel's father was a strange, strange man with a shadowy history and documented predatory traits. He was brought up on charges of incest for submitting his then 14 year old daughter to sexual torture at parties he held at his home on Franklin Avenue in LA. The girl was shared with various party goers, men and women. The defense painted the daughter, Tamar, as a pathological liar who "plotted he father's downfall" and although there were witnesses to the abuse the good doctor was found innocent.

Det. Hodel's interest in Black Dahlia started right after his father's death (at age 85), when his father's widow asked him to help organize the dead man's things.

Amoung the possessions Det. Hodel found a small photo album. The album contained pictures of the Detective as a child with his brother and father as well a two photos of Elizabeth Short. These were pictures taken by Dr. Hodel.

He takes the story through his own investigation of the crimes and presents a case that proves his theory.

It's the best Dahlia piece I have read (and I've read most of them) and I really believe the case is closed.

[camracrazy]

I saw a TV show that had Steve Hodel on it discussing his theories. I wish I could remember the name. I thought that it was said on that show that the pictures Steve had could not be definately ruled as being Elizabeth Short. On Steve Hodel's site, you can see the two pics, although they are too tiny to make a good comparison. If you click on the FAQ link at the bottom of the page, one of the pics is shown with some pics of Elizabeth Short (page 2 when you scroll down the FAQ's list).

http://www.blackdahliaavenger.com/index.html

I have not read the book myself, but in the Crime Library segment on the Black Dahlia it reads:

"So, after laboring through 467 pages, I have to agree with the Times editor Larry Harnisch who called Hodel's book the equivalent of seeing Jesus on a tortilla."

It doesn't say anything about John Gilmore's book, but it would be interesting to know what is thought of it.

[mystic.star]

I have read a lot about this case, and it has me enthralled. right along with "Jack the Ripper." I guess because it remains unsolved. I think Jack Wilson was probably Beth Short's murderer, though. I don't remember the details, but after reading his account of the murder, I was convinced that he is the culprit. Still, I have been convinced before and been wrong. Am dying to see the movie, though! (no pun intended)

[squirrel1]

Donald H. Wolfe's "The Black Dahlia Files: The Mob, the Mogul and the Murder That Transfixed Los Angeles."

I just read "The Black Dahlia Files" by Donald H. Wolfe. Its excelent...
Its as good as the Hodell book. Theres lots of new information from the La DAs files. Also great pictures too...

There still seems to be lots of unreleased information in LA police and DA files.

This book should revive the interest in the black dahlia..

Theres an apendix on the the hodell book... I havent read that part yet.

I dont really agree with his conclusions. Also I find it suspect where he says that some LA cops told him that they found the crime scene and the killers. Razz Shocked Laughing

People realize if they write a book claiming to solve a crime that it will sell more copy. Wolfe also wrote a popular book claiming that Marylyn Monrow was murded and the police covered it up..

Larry is bloging the entire book one day at a time!!!!
Larry Harnish seems to find a lot of exceptions in the Wolfe book.
Im waiting for Larrys book to come out...

See Blogging the Wolfe Book, Our Story So Far on the Larry Harnish Blog.

http://lmharnisch.blogspot.com/

Larry, probably the greatest athority on the Black Dahlia, is bloging Donald H. Wolfe's "The Black Dahlia Files: The Mob, the Mogul and the Murder That Transfixed Los Angeles."
:seeya:

[mystic.star]

I found both intriguing. I don't recall if they saved any evidence from the Crime Scene. If Jack Wilson's dna could be collected (they would have to exhume his body) then they might come up with something. I know they have some of Elizabeth's personal effects that were mailed to the PD after her murder. I think DNA testing would be promising.

[mystic.star]

that Jack Wilson died before proof of his guilt or innocence could be obtained. They could still do dna testing, though, if they have something to be tested. Beth Short's body was so clean when she was found, perhaps her nails might contain enough dna to be tested, but I don't recall. I also don't know if enough interest has been shown in this case to warrant exhuming Wilson's body for testing. I would love to see it, though.

Unfortunately DNA testing is impossible as far as Wilson goes. Days before he was to be apprehended for questioning, alcoholic Wilson passes out with a lit cigarette in his hotel room and dies in the resulting fire. Apparently it wasn't the first time he had set fire to his hotel room with his careless habits. Rasmussen suggests that finger print matching might be a possiblity. There were finger prints lifted from the various crime scenes in Chicaago that later William Heirens would be convicted of. His own finger prints never matched any lifted from those crime scenes. As long as the evidence from those crimes is still preserved and one of the many police stations where Jack Wilson was booked into still has his prints on file it shouldn't be that difficult. But then again if it wasn't that difficult perhaps it would have already been done. That still does nothing for the Dahlia case which is really unsolvable as it stands. It would at least show that Wilson as a suspect was at least capable of the dismemberment that was evident in Short's murder.

I may be mistaken but not only was he burned in the hotel fire but I believe after holding his body for so long without any new leads or connections being made they cremated his remains and thus negatied any possibility of DNA testing. I mentioned another possiblity of connection Wilson to at least some of the murders in which he was suspect in the other post.

[squirrel1]

SEE NEW ARTICLE EVERY DAY:
Larry Harnisch Has posted 37 articles on his blog about Donald H. Wolfe's "The Black Dahlia Files: The Mob, the Mogul and the Murder That Transfixed Los Angeles."
He has now opended the blog for comments. There is a new article everyday.
All of his articles are still available on his blog site.

If you not reading this you're missing a lot of good info
Larry is the true expert on the Black Dahlia......

http://lmharnisch.blogspot.com/

:tongue: :o

Good stuff. I read the whole blog almost in one sitting. Thanks.

[zc4me2]

this may seem strange, but my now deceased mother-in-law had a very elusive past including several marriages and a name change for reasons unknown. We know that she frequented the same establishments as the murder victim. Her birth name was Clara Lucille Mather..Does this ring a bell to anyone? We think she may have had some connection and this would be the reason she refused to talk about her past, my husband's father who disappeared from his life and the husband' after that..

[couger]

I became interested in the Black Dahlia murder after seeing a documentary about her brutal muder on America's Most Unsolved. It was an extremly brutal end for this young girl to meet and I am very disappointed that no body has ever been caught.

The documentary included the main suspects including the gentelman who has accused his own father. It also showed some of the horrific crime scene photos but still despite all the books written and documentaires made we still have no idea who commited this crime.

I will be very disappointed if Hollywood is making a movie about her unfortunate and tragic death because she deserves justice and if I know movies this is more likely to just use the story to shock people and provide sick thrills to fill cinemas. After 50 years I think it is one of those things that will remain a mystery like the identity of Jack the Ripper.

She doesn't deserve to be forgotten but at the same time her death cannot become mass entertainment which is what I fear will happen if a movie is released.

For anyone interested in the investigation into her death one of the best websites I have come across so far is www.bethshort.com BUT the site material includes some very graphic photos and anyone with a weak stomach should steer well clear.

[lisafremont]

The 48 HRS show that featured the Black Dahlia and Steve Hodel's theories was very flawed and slanted, I am sorry to say because I enjoy that show regularly.

I read BLACK DAHLIA AVENGER and found it utterly compelling and convincing. Steve Hodel HAS solved this case.

And, as it turned out and he learned from info revealed after his book was published, HIS FATHER WAS THE PRIME SUSPECT! The Lloyd Wright house had been ILLEGALLY BUGGED. The authorities were closing in on Dr. George Hill Hodel when HE FLED THE US.

A new, updated edition of BDA will soon be on the shelves. It will contain a new chapter with further evidence supporting his case.

I don't understand how any thinking person could read BDA and not be convinced that Steve Hodel has found the solution.

[Sunny Day]

There is a new movie out about this case. They showcased this case on one of those documentary channels, and they showed the actual pictures of the crime scene.

Whoever murdered her was one sick b*st*rd, IMO. I think it was someone who was very wealthy or from a wealthy family. Doesn't seem like the police were all that interested in capturing him.

I think this case should be reopened and solved now that the technology exists to solve it.

[Belly Button]

This case still fascinates me.

[Sara Sidle]

I'm not sure the police should reopen such an old case. The perp would probably be dead.

[ghewitt21901]

Originally posted by Sara Sidle
I'm not sure the police should reopen such an old case. The perp would probably be dead.

What difference does that make? People have a right to justice, even if thy're dead the perp is dead whatever, don't you think?

[Sara Sidle]

Originally posted by ghewitt21901


What difference does that make? People have a right to justice, even if thy're dead the perp is dead whatever, don't you think?

The dead can't be prosecuted, so how is that justice?

[rph3664]

Was this the show featuring the retired L.A. police officer who believes his father killed Elizabeth Short AND AT LEAST THIRTY OTHER WOMEN ?

It's quite a story; the show did not say why he believes his dad might have done any of this.

[Hannah St. John]

:rose: I googled the Black Dahlia and found some very interesting articles and horrific pictures of her cut in half. I also noticed in one of the pictures, looking at the lower portion of the torso, you could see completely thru the lower portion. Where the vagina should have been there was a hole and you could see sun light.

I got to thinking after I read Elizabeth Short (the black dahlia) could not have normal intercourse because of a genital birth defect.

[Quote]Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (a metabolic disorder) and chromosomal abnormalities commonly cause genital defects.

A child may be born with genitals that are not clearly male or female (ambiguous genitals, or intersex state). Most children with ambiguous genitals are pseudohermaphrodites—that is, they have ambiguous external genital organs but either ovaries or testes (not both). Pseudohermaphrodites are genetically male or female.


Female Genital Defects

Female pseudohermaphroditism (also called virilization) is caused by exposure to high levels of male hormones. The most common cause is enlarged adrenal glands (congenital adrenal hyperplasia) that overproduce male hormones because an enzyme is missing. The male hormones cannot be converted to female hormones as occurs in normal females. Sometimes, male hormones enter the placenta from the mother's blood; for example, the mother may have been given drugs such as progesterone to prevent a miscarriage, or she may have had a hormone-producing tumor, although this is much less common.

A female pseudohermaphrodite has female internal organs but has an enlarged clitoris that resembles a small penis.[Quote]

I wonder (this is all speculation on my part) if the person who killed her thought she was a transexual became angry and killed her out of fear and hate. The killer could have been very angry (obviously because he cut the body in half he separated the upper portion of the torso from the lower portion) because he was so attracted to her, he may have been afraid of the attraction and assumed he may have homosexual tendencies, maybe he thought he had to kill her in order to kill his own feelings and emotions.


Today, genital birth defects can be fixed through surgery but back then I don't think they could be, I think the child had to live with what mother nature gave them.

I thought I would put a different twist on this old story.

I think they should reopen this case and try to solve it, it's a different time and with our technology I think it could be done.

If this angle has already been discussed, I apologize.

Hannah


:rose:

[PhilMeyers]

I can't wait to see the movie. I have always been interested in this case and I agree that this case should be re opened. Today's technology may help solve the case.

[ghewitt21901]

Originally posted by Sara Sidle


The dead can't be prosecuted, so how is that justice?

That woman had a family, someone cared about her even if we don't know who that someone is.

[darjeeling]

Originally posted by lisafremont
The 48 HRS show that featured the Black Dahlia and Steve Hodel's theories was very flawed and slanted, I am sorry to say because I enjoy that show regularly.

I read BLACK DAHLIA AVENGER and found it utterly compelling and convincing. Steve Hodel HAS solved this case.

And, as it turned out and he learned from info revealed after his book was published, HIS FATHER WAS THE PRIME SUSPECT! The Lloyd Wright house had been ILLEGALLY BUGGED. The authorities were closing in on Dr. George Hill Hodel when HE FLED THE US.

A new, updated edition of BDA will soon be on the shelves. It will contain a new chapter with further evidence supporting his case.

I don't understand how any thinking person could read BDA and not be convinced that Steve Hodel has found the solution.

I saw 48 Hours Mystery yesterday (Aug. 29) and they had an expert who said she was 85% sure that the photos find in Hodel's father's album are not a match with Elizabeth Short which seems to undermine the detective's theory that his father did it. They also had a handwriting expert who said the writing in the letters to the newspaper following the murder did not match the older Hodel's handwriting.

[lisafremont]

Originally posted by darjeeling


I saw 48 Hours Mystery yesterday (Aug. 29) and they had an expert who said she was 85% sure that the photos find in Hodel's father's album are not a match with Elizabeth Short which seems to undermine the detective's theory that his father did it. They also had a handwriting expert who said the writing in the letters to the newspaper following the murder did not match the older Hodel's handwriting.

If that were the sum total of the evidence, then perhaps skepticism would be warranted. But that's not the case.

If you haven't read Steve Hodel's book, I suggest you do.

[LadyJaneGrey]

There's so much misinformation about Elizabeth Short out there. The Larry Harnish site is good, as is this one, which is by someone who knew her in her youth.

http://blackdahlia.info/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1

I've read both the Wolfe book and the Gilmore book, and I can't say I'm convinced by either. Hodel's book has pretty much been dismissed by Harnish, I think. That said, I'm not sure Harnish has the answer, either. I doubt any answer will be found at this point, almost 60 years later, but anything's possible.

I had not heard about the Cleveland Torso murderer possibly being connected to the Black Dahlia. I'll have to check it out.

[darjeeling]

Originally posted by LadyJaneGrey
There's so much misinformation about Elizabeth Short out there. The Larry Harnish site is good, as is this one, which is by someone who knew her in her youth.

http://blackdahlia.info/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1

I've read both the Wolfe book and the Gilmore book, and I can't say I'm convinced by either. Hodel's book has pretty much been dismissed by Harnish, I think. That said, I'm not sure Harnish has the answer, either. I doubt any answer will be found at this point, almost 60 years later, but anything's possible.

I had not heard about the Cleveland Torso murderer possibly being connected to the Black Dahlia. I'll have to check it out.

Thanks for the link. That was very informative.

[Frankincensed]

" People have a right to justice, even if thy're dead the perp is dead whatever, don't you think?"

I have to agree with those who say "no".

First, the dead have no rights at all, not civil, not human. Any rights you think might be their's are actually the rights of their survivors.

As to closure, what does closure have to do with justice?

If survivors believe they have accepted a victim's fate and have achieved closure, does that mean that justice has been achieved and there should no longer be any investigation?\

Y converso, what does justice have to do with closure?

How about those for whom merely knowing the identity of the perp and that he has been convicted and say executed doesn't provide closure. Some people never get closure. 'Why?Why?Why did it happen?" Sorry, we don't know.

[LordMisRule]

Originally posted by Frankincensed
" People have a right to justice, even if thy're dead the perp is dead whatever, don't you think?"

I have to agree with those who say "no".

First, the dead have no rights at all, not civil, not human. Any rights you think might be their's are actually the rights of their survivors.

As to closure, what does closure have to do with justice?

If survivors believe they have accepted a victim's fate and have achieved closure, does that mean that justice has been achieved and there should no longer be any investigation?\

Y converso, what does justice have to do with closure?

How about those for whom merely knowing the identity of the perp and that he has been convicted and say executed doesn't provide closure. Some people never get closure. 'Why?Why?Why did it happen?" Sorry, we don't know.

I've heard many victims often say that there is no such thing as closure anyway. Why not just solve it for the sake of solving it? Even Steve Hodel has made it his lifelong goal to search for the truth as to his father's role in this murder and 30 others.

JMO

[LordMisRule]

Originally posted by Hannah St. John


*snipped*

I wonder (this is all speculation on my part) if the person who killed her thought she was a transexual became angry and killed her out of fear and hate. The killer could have been very angry (obviously because he cut the body in half he separated the upper portion of the torso from the lower portion) because he was so attracted to her, he may have been afraid of the attraction and assumed he may have homosexual tendencies, maybe he thought he had to kill her in order to kill his own feelings and emotions.


*snipped*




Hi Hannah,

Interesting theory! IMO, I don't think it was anger so much as a showing. The way that the body was cut, the way it was positioned, and the area where it was found points to a killer who pre-planned this for grandioso purposes. The notes sent to the police and the newspapers also supports this. This entire crime looks like it was planned for a long time, and the killer got a lot of enjoyment out of this. The way that Short was cut also points to somebody who had surgical knowledge.

JMO

[lisafremont]

Originally posted by LadyJaneGrey
...I've read both the Wolfe book and the Gilmore book, and I can't say I'm convinced by either. Hodel's book has pretty much been dismissed by Harnish, I think. That said, I'm not sure Harnish has the answer, either. ...

So what if Harnish dismissed Hodel's book? Have you read it? Are you aware that Hodel was the number one suspect at the time? That his house was bugged??

IMO, and the opinion of more knowledgeable people than I, Steve Hodel has solved these crimes.

IMO the only people who don't want to recognize that are those who have some interest in the continuing mystery. But there is no mystery. It's all too plain.

[alaska]

Read Hodel's book & think he's cracked it.Especially the Surrealisim aspect of it.Check The Minotaur by Man Ray/Lovers by Matisse,etc.Also saw on old map of 39th & Norton location the streets curving like a gal's hips.THAT to me fits w/ the "artistic"(forgive the phrase) aspects of the crime.A new book Exquisite Corpse is coming out exploring surrealisim & the Dahlia. Can't wait to read THAT. As a person who has a BFA degree,studied art history, etc.,the revelation that the surrealists were so misogynistic was startling.Looked up a surrealist magazine(published in the 20's) & there is a huge photo of Mary Kelley, The Ripper's most mutilated victim, plus an essay w/a loving description as to how this was the ultimate in surrealisim,,etc.Quite sickening, really. Had no idea of their hatred of women.They didn't tell us THAT in art school! Recall, too Hodel's Dad's car was nicknamed the TAR BABY.A black Ford sedan...You know what happens when you touch a tar baby...

[alaska]

Another thing:Some say the photos in Hodel's album aren't Beth Short.If you look @ Beth in her living photos she looks different in nearly every picture-I think her looks changed ,like her hairdos,depending on if she was eating much,etc.Sometimes she seems so sculptured in her face & sometimes she has chipmunk cheeks.The sure test would be an ear analysis but don't know if it's feasible.Just cause some person disses Hodel's book doesn't mean he's right.Read it yourself! I think the fascination w/ this case is the fact it's unsolved,officially, & you look @ her & wonder what had she done to deserve such...mayhem committed upon her person? If you are a girl, it has an especial resonance too:Look what a man can do to you-(Sorry but the Killer WAS a man.) I am also curious if there were crazy mutilation murders in the Philipines when Hodel's Dad was based there??A nut like that doesn't just stop,cold turkey.

[lisafremont]

Whether those two photos in Dr. Hodel's album were Elizabeth or not is besides the point. Steve Hodel's conclusions rest on a vast ocean of evidence. The photos are just a puddle in comparison.

They are important to the story because they are what started him down the path of investigating the Black Dahlia murder.

And do not forget, Steve suspects that his father and his accomplice, Fred Sexton, were complicit in a whole string of unsolved murders/disappearances of women in the late '40s LA.

At a book signing, Steve Hodel was approached by a woman asking if SH believed Fred Sexton was a killer. SH said he did. The woman said she believed it too and revealed to him that FS was her stepfather and that he had sexually molested her as a child, just as Tamar Hodel, SH's half sister, was sexually molested by her father and his friends.

George Hill Hodel was a monster. It's not surprising that his friends should be monstrous as well. Misogynism in art is shocking but not new. Look at Picasso's paintings. I think they reveal enormous hatred of women and his despicable behavior toward the women in his life bears this out.

I briefly exchanged a couple of emails with Steve Hodel. One of the questions I asked him was-- did he think that his father stopped killing after he fled LA? His answer was that it's unlikely that that kind of obsessive criminal behavior would just end but that he didn't know.

[elvis0321]

I don't know whether this has been posted elsewhere on the site but the new movie "The Black Dahlia" is based on a fiction novel. There is fact mixed in with fiction and anyone expecting to get a true representation of the story will not get it from this movie. I really wanted to see this movie until I found out that it is not entirely factually based. But then I don't think Hollywood would want a movie that ends with no solution to the murder.

[wyllow]

I READ THE SAME THING IN JOHN DOUGLAS'S BOOK "CASES THAT HAUNT US" THAT ELIZABETH SHORT HAD AN ABNORMAL VAGINA. IT MAY HAVE WELL BEEN THAT SHE WAS KILLED BECAUSE SOMEONE WANTED MORE FROM HER THAN WHAT SHE WAS ABLE TO GIVE. ALSO, I THINK THAT'S WHY SHE HAD SO MANY ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS. THE MEN SHE GOT INVOLVED WITH WERE PROBABLY NO ABLE TO COMPREHEND THE LIMITS TO THEIR RELATIONSHIPS AND HER PHYSICAL "DEFORMITY". BEING SUCH A BEAUTIFUL WOMAN THAT EXUDED SEXUALITY AND YET PHYSICALLY UNABLE TO PERFORM.

I ONLY HOPE SHE FOUND THE PEACE IN DEATH THAT SHE COULD NOT HAVE IN LIFE. AND THAT HER KILLER FACED HIS OWN JUSTICE, IF NOT BY THE COURTS.

[PhilMeyers]

With the movie coming out usually their is some sort of t.v. program about the actual story. Does anyone know if their is going to be a Black Dahlia special?

[elvis0321]

Originally posted by alaska
Another thing:Some say the photos in Hodel's album aren't Beth Short.If you look @ Beth in her living photos she looks different in nearly every picture-I think her looks changed ,like her hairdos,depending on if she was eating much,etc.Sometimes she seems so sculptured in her face & sometimes she has chipmunk cheeks.The sure test would be an ear analysis but don't know if it's feasible.Just cause some person disses Hodel's book doesn't mean he's right.Read it yourself! I think the fascination w/ this case is the fact it's unsolved,officially, & you look @ her & wonder what had she done to deserve such...mayhem committed upon her person? If you are a girl, it has an especial resonance too:Look what a man can do to you-(Sorry but the Killer WAS a man.) I am also curious if there were crazy mutilation murders in the Philipines when Hodel's Dad was based there??A nut like that doesn't just stop,cold turkey.

What does anyone do to deserve to be butchered? The fact of the matter is that this is how sexual psychopaths/sadists ply their trade. You can't try to understand because hopefully you aren't "wired" the same way these guys are. What did Jeffrey Dahmer's victims do, or Ted Bundy's, or any of the dozens of other victims of these types of criminals? They did nothing other than to fit the victim profile in the criminals mind. Maybe they had blonde hair. Maybe they reminded the killer of his mother, etc.

I will say, however, that Beth Short was particularly at risk because of the lifestyle she led. She was a transient. She was flirtacious(sp.?). She used men and women alike to get what she needed (although mostly men). And yes, she was most likely unable to have sex which very well could have set her killer off.

[awareness]

Originally posted by lisafremont
Look at Picasso's paintings. I think they reveal enormous hatred of women and his despicable behavior toward the women in his life bears this out.

I respect your opinion but I honestly don't see Picasso as hating women> He drew men and his own self portrait in the same style.

http://www.artchive.com/artchive/P/picasso/self7.jpg.html
http://www.hitchams.suffolk.sch.uk/ict_art/hockney/picasso_self_portrait.htm

IMO

this case is very facinating... I doubt though we'll ever have a true difinitive answer much like Jack the Ripper.

[Deepwater]

Originally posted by
Im not sure that the man who murdered her was the same man that was responsible for the Kingsbury Run murders but there is some interesting evidence that suggests its not entirely impossible.

The Kingsbury Run murderer, Dr. Frank Sweeney, killed almost entirely by decapitation. That was his signature. Also, he deliberately sought out victims that were not were not distinctive looking so that people wouldn't remember that he was seen in their company. The victims were down and out prostitutes, addicts and alcoholic. There is almost no similarity in the signature or MO between the murder of Elizabeth Short and the Kingsbury Run case.

Some people will say anything to sell a book.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/unsolved/kingsbury/index_1.html

[MikefrMd]

Originally posted by Sara Sidle


The dead can't be prosecuted, so how is that justice?

I'm not sure I agree with you here....as far as I have found out no one knows who the killer is, just theories...he may be still alive today. Wouldn't you want to know the truth?

And call me funny but I do believe that victims dead or not do deserve justice being served upon their perps. JMO

[sunsplashed]

I am not at all squeamish, but I would not advise anyone looking at these photos who is (I don't even know if the first one will work):

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://members.tripod.com/~VanessaWest/morgue.jpg&imgrefurl=http://members.tripod.com/~VanessaWest/elizabeth.html&h=150&w=216&sz=14&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=SoMLGLsfnuhnbM:&tbnh=74&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3Delizabeth%2Bshort%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3 Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

This one, however, puts to rest the fact that Elizabeth Short was not female or suffered from abnormal genitalia:

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/2682/untitled7hw.png

Also, her autopsy report said the genitals were normal.

Poor woman! How horrific!

[sunsplashed]

Not the usual photo of her here. She was quite pretty in this photo (it's just a photo of her alive, the squeamish can look):

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/3619/bethshort11pu.png

I have NO idea who killed her, no idea. It had to be someone totally crazy.

JMO

[lucky13]

Thanks for those links Sunsplashed. I never knew much about this case. It was a horrible way for anyone to die. Poor woman. It's a shame that no one was ever proven to be her killer. He deserved to be punished for what he did to her. Maybe he is now deceased himself. -if so, he's surely burning in 4377.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by sunsplashed
Not the usual photo of her here. She was quite pretty in this photo (it's just a photo of her alive, the squeamish can look):

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/3619/bethshort11pu.png

I have NO idea who killed her, no idea. It had to be someone totally crazy.

JMO

She sort of favors Wendy Murphy in this photo imo.

IMO

Ocean