Karla

[calico cat]

Please read CTV article about Karla Homolka. So much for Canadian justice.:cuss:

[abby15]

Originally posted by calico cat
Please read CTV article about Karla Homolka. So much for Canadian justice.:cuss:

UGH!
I just read it. I bet she is still a threat.
Mark my words, we haven't heard the last from her.

[chilione]

Originally posted by calico cat
Please read CTV article about Karla Homolka. So much for Canadian justice.:cuss:

Thanks for the heads-up. I am just sickened by this latest developement. Those poor families are being victimized yet again.IMO :mad:

[packy]

Can you direct me to the article, please?

[chilione]

Originally posted by packy
Can you direct me to the article, please?

MONTREAL — The mother of one of Karla Homolka’s teenage victims said she felt “kicked in the stomach” today after a judge ruled the schoolgirl killer can come and go with no restrictions.


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1133349482638&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467

[Monkeyloving*]

So that monster is allowed to contact the families of her victims???? This is sickening! :cuss:

[Rose Nylund]

Like the families haven't suffered enough already! This witch deserves to be locked up for a very long time! I can't believe she only got 2 years. Not to mention she also killed her own sister as the bf was raping her. Three victims. Three lives lost. And she gets 12 years - with no restrictions now. Sickening.

[packy]

Originally posted by chilione


MONTREAL — The mother of one of Karla Homolka’s teenage victims said she felt “kicked in the stomach” today after a judge ruled the schoolgirl killer can come and go with no restrictions.


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1133349482638&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467

Thanks, Chilione.

A lot more than six months of restrictions would seem reasonable, especially since she was proven to be susceptible to the influence of another enough to go along with such horrible crimes. What were they thinking.

[chilione]

Originally posted by packy


Thanks, Chilione.

A lot more than six months of restrictions would seem reasonable, especially since she was proven to be susceptible to the influence of another enough to go along with such horrible crimes. What were they thinking.

You're right. What the h*ll were they thinking?

There is still hope.

"The Quebec government will announce Friday if it will appeal the ruling that struck down all the restrictions placed on schoolgirl killer Karla Homolka, Ontario Attorney General Michael Bryant said late Thursday."

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1133391012874&col=968705899037&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News

[Pennibelle]

Originally posted by calico cat
Please read CTV article about Karla Homolka. So much for Canadian justice.:cuss:

I have a question for you. I live in the US, Denver, Colorado.

It is very hard for me to understand/believe that if a large number of Canadians were to ban together and protest this disgusting, conscience-less, ruling........it's hard to believe that change would not/could not happen.

Is it that the vast majority of Canadians complain and such behind closed doors but choose not to take action and fight for change?

I'm not making accusations here, I am genuinely trying to understand why something as ridiculous as this could happen.

Also, question is does Canada have a Death penalty?? If so...why did that Bernardo monster get life instead of what he truly deserves.

Thank you for you time.

Best Regard,

Pennibelle

[2L8 4A D8]

Originally posted by Pennibelle

<snipped>

Also, question is does Canada have a Death penalty?? If so...why did that Bernardo monster get life instead of what he truly deserves.

IIRC, NO, Canada does not have the Death Penalty. And, whether you commit 1 murder or 20, you can only get 25 years! Paul got LWOP though because he was declared a dangerous offender (or something like that).

JMO and MOO!!

[keys]

Originally posted by Pennibelle


I have a question for you. I live in the US, Denver, Colorado.

It is very hard for me to understand/believe that if a large number of Canadians were to ban together and protest this disgusting, conscience-less, ruling........it's hard to believe that change would not/could not happen.

Is it that the vast majority of Canadians complain and such behind closed doors but choose not to take action and fight for change?

I'm not making accusations here, I am genuinely trying to understand why something as ridiculous as this could happen.

Also, question is does Canada have a Death penalty?? If so...why did that Bernardo monster get life instead of what he truly deserves.

Thank you for you time.

Best Regard,

Pennibelle

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/okc/interactive/death.penalty/maps.exclude.html

I don't know about you, but the only developed western nation that I see that still has the death penalty is yours.

I thought everyone knew that the only nations that still practice the dealth penalty are those in the third world.... and the US, of course.

[Anthea Delano]

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8


IIRC, NO, Canada does not have the Death Penalty. And, whether you commit 1 murder or 20, you can only get 25 years! Paul got LWOP though because he was declared a dangerous offender (or something like that).

JMO and MOO!!

Thank God he got LWOP. Imagine that monster back out on the streets.

[2L8 4A D8]

Originally posted by Anthea Delano

Thank God he got LWOP. Imagine that monster back out on the streets.

Yes, thank God! It's bad enough that Karla is out walking the streets for the both of them now!

JMO and MOO!!

:flamemad:

[Pennibelle]

Originally posted by keys


http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/okc/interactive/death.penalty/maps.exclude.html

I don't know about you, but the only developed western nation that I see that still has the death penalty is yours.

I thought everyone knew that the only nations that still practice the dealth penalty are those in the third world.... and the US, of course.

And of course letting a sick, evil piece of 'Doo doo', ,out to possibly continue to rage a murder...............

But..........no REAL PUNISHMENT.............


:D

[Pennibelle]

Evil is as Evil does.................

[seawolf4]

Originally posted by Pennibelle


And of course letting a sick, evil piece of 'Doo doo', ,out to possibly continue to rage a murder...............

But..........no REAL PUNISHMENT.............



:D

The poster did not say that he should be allowed back on the streets. You may believe that the death penalty is appropriate but it is a fact that the only western country to still have the death penalty is the US.

[Anthea Delano]

There are some cases that truy warrant the death penalty, it is waste of taxpayers money to house and feed monsters, when poor children do without.

Studies have shown that the death penalty is not a deterrent, its only purpose is to rid society of its vilest predators.

[2L8 4A D8]

Originally posted by Anthea Delano
There are some cases that truy warrant the death penalty, it is waste of taxpayers money to house and feed monsters, when poor children do without.

Studies have shown that the death penalty is not a deterrent, its only purpose is to rid society of its vilest predators.

I agree Anthea. There are so many things that could be done with all of the taxpayer money, etc. that is wasted on criminals. Everyone has choices and they chose their path in life. I am then supposed to feel sorry for them and have my hard-earned dollars used to rehabilitate them? I don't think so. Call me what you will, but I just call a spade, a spade. AND, if the truth hurts.....sorry!

JMO and MOO!!

[Pretty Leaf]

COLOR=royalblue]Sorry, but asking if Canada practices capital punishment is almost s bad a asking if canadian live in igloos.[

As far as igloos go give me a break. That statement shows the ignorance of a few. Did this poster say anything remotely like that. You are showing your ignorance towards other posters.

Your statement re:
.Crack open a book sometime. Maybe that way you'll someday become learned in the ways of basic punctuation, and perhaps further yet, you'll gain some common knowledge along with it.
however shows that you are unable to accept other posters as they are. They do not need you or anyone else to mock your interpetation of their perceived lack of abilities.

Come down of your pedestal and talk to others as they are human beings and take them and their questions as they are.

[Pretty Leaf]

Originally posted by Pretty Leaf
COLOR=royalblue]Sorry, but asking if Canada practices capital punishment is almost s bad a asking if canadian live in igloos.[

As far as igloos go give me a break. That statement shows the ignorance of a few. Did this poster say anything remotely like that. You are showing your ignorance towards other posters.

Your statement re:
.Crack open a book sometime. Maybe that way you'll someday become learned in the ways of basic punctuation, and perhaps further yet, you'll gain some common knowledge along with it.
however shows that you are unable to accept other posters as they are. They do not need you or anyone else to mock your interpetation of their perceived lack of abilities.

Come down of your pedestal and talk to others as they are human beings and take them and their questions as they are.

And no, not every one knows that the US is the only develope western nation that still has the death penalty. This fact was educational for some to bad it was included in a post of where others are taunted.

[2L8 4A D8]

What's up with a few Posts being edited by Hotwater? I have never seen such a thing. What is s/he editing? Anybody know? Just curious! Thanks!

:shrug: :confused: :shrug:

[onedarksun]

Does Karla have any contact with her family and if so, how do they get past the fact she halped Paul in killing her sister? Also, are Paul and Karla still married?

[Anthea Delano]

Originally posted by onedarksun
Does Karla have any contact with her family and if so, how do they get past the fact she halped Paul in killing her sister? Also, are Paul and Karla still married?

Karla has a relationship with her immediate family. Go to stickies for more info. The sister's letter to K in prison is revealing.

I have no idea how they are able to get past the fact that their daughter assisted in the rape and supposedly accidental death of her younger sister, at the hands of her boy"fiend'-when K was still living at home.

K divorced PB, but did not change her last name from Teale, a surname she and Paul adopted to honor a fictional serial murderer.

[keys]

Originally posted by onedarksun
Does Karla have any contact with her family and if so, how do they get past the fact she halped Paul in killing her sister? Also, are Paul and Karla still married?

Who knows, maybe they figure losing one child is bad enough, so they might as well not lose two. The mother seems supportive and must love her unconditionally. Meanwhile, the father's current relationship to Karla is not really as clear.

I pity Karla's parents. They must be two of the most unfortunate people in St. Catherines.

[kansas queen]

Originally posted by keys


Who knows, maybe they figure losing one child is bad enough, so they might as well not lose two. The mother seems supportive and must love her unconditionally. Meanwhile, the father's current relationship to Karla is not really as clear.

I pity Karla's parents. They must be two of the most unfortunate people in St. Catherines.

There are many collateral victims of violence, clearing including the families of the victims as well as the perps. I would assume there are victim support groups in their area and that they're able to take advantage of such services.

The danger of putting this away and getting ON with other things is that lest we remember what happened here and are aware of signs that can be learned by dissecting a crime, THAT crime is almost certain to be repeated. Not necessarily by the same perp (altho that often happens) but by other perps as well.

[Hope MT]

Originally posted by kansas queen


There are many collateral victims of violence, clearing including the families of the victims as well as the perps. I would assume there are victim support groups in their area and that they're able to take advantage of such services.

The danger of putting this away and getting ON with other things is that lest we remember what happened here and are aware of signs that can be learned by dissecting a crime, THAT crime is almost certain to be repeated. Not necessarily by the same perp (altho that often happens) but by other perps as well.

Hi "Kansas Queen";

I was just surfing through these forums and saw your words about there being "collateral" victims of the victim's and perpetrators families and your words about victim support groups.
Being a very close friend of the Mahaffy Family, I can't really comment, for obvious privacy reasons, on the families exact thoughts or words on the whole "Bernardo/Homolka" thing but what I can tell you is what I observed throughout the trial personally, as far as the support out there and the many forms it comes in.....for instance, it is very important that reporters who deal with crime and victims be given training on how to deal with the victims. Tha Mahaffy family were treated wonderfully by some and not so good by others but hey, that's the real world. I'll give credit here to some that were fantastic in my observations. Nick Pron of the Toronto Star, Al Cairns and Scott Burnside of the Toronto Sun, Lauran Sabourin of CH Tv (Niagara bureau), Roy Green of 900CHML radio in Hamilton, Scott Gardner (photographer for the Hamilton Spectator) and the best of all seemed to be Wade Hemsworth, reporter for the Hamilton Spectator. So yeah, these people really helped as far as I could see.
Inspector Vince Bevan, the entire Green Ribbon Task Force, The Halton and Niagara Police Services as well as the Victim Services units in each service were outstanding. There was the odd time where I had to speak with Insp. Bevan and he was fantastic in helping even us friends of the family help them. There was no manual on this stuff for us who were close to things let alone the actual family.

Even local, now Member of Provincial Parliament Cam Jackson would go out of his way to visit the home always doing what he could.
The list of local businesses and residents of Burlington who stepped up to the plate offering services was mind- numbing to say the least......kudos to all those good people!

Anyhow, yeah, if it wasn't for all these good people who came forward, it would have been even worse for the family.

Sorry I can't really comment on much of the other arguments/debates in here as I obviously know too many of the facts but I will say that there are some interesting perspectives given here and we must all feel happy that at least we can offer opinions. (some contain surprisingly "bang on" stuff and other's are based on conjecture, false rumours and outright fiction)......but keep debating! I find it very interesting to read.
I didn't mention the French family on purpose as I don't know them well enough to comment......but it's a fair bet that they were treated equally as well by all involved from what I saw from a distance. That's all I can say as I really don't know.

Oh, by the way, in another thread, someone from England had asked if there was a fund to donate to for the families........Well there used to be a legal fund set up to help pay for the lawyer, Tim Danson and his team ( by the way, Tim has been another "angel" for the families I'll tell you) defend and protect their daughter's dignity but I don't have the info handy...........your best bet is to e-mail Roy Green of radio station 900 CHML in Hamilton who will answer your question. He has worked with these two families and others for years advocating victim's rights and had won international awards.....

Here's the link to his "bio" on the station website and his e-mail address is at the bottom....he's a good guy and this way you know that wherever you were to contibute, it is legit! I'm sure he will steer you in the right direction.

http://www.900chml.com/station/chml_announcers.cfm?REM=11634


Have a great day all!
:)

[Pretty Leaf]

What an interesting post. I hope the families know that there are people out here that still hold them in their hearts, so long afterwards.

I sure there are many in the journalism world that are fanatical about the lastest juicy tibit, and those who have a heart. You mentioning names actually helps those of us who know the names of these journalists for their work, appreciate their efforts, and applaud their sensitivity.

Some of us in do not have a high appreciation for Bevan and his task force because of the deal with the devil, however I know that the victim's families signed off on that and therefore have no ill will towards them. Perhaps some of us now can follow the victims families lead and let that go, however hard that may be. As outsiders looking in we become an extention of the community that was so scared by this tragedy.

Please convey our sincere sorrow to the family and we pray that one day peace will come to all.

Pretty Leaf.

[Hope MT]

Nicely said "pretty leaf";

I will be sure to show this thread the Mahaffy's. They will feel good knowing that the quiet (and sometimes loud) support is still there and a lot of people do in fact "get it".

And just as an aside, let's not forget that Leslie's Grandma "Alice Smith" was tragically killed in a vehicle collision outside of Burlington while on her way to church to have her Minister assist her in composing her entry into the motion the media brought forward to have the video-tapes played in open court..........she was a wonderful lady and I'll always remember her warm smile, beautiful Bristish accent....and the days we spent making dill pickles out of green beans from my garden together......Alice was a good soul and just plain ole' fun to be around!........

Boy, the ripple effects of crime just keep on going sadly......

[Pretty Leaf]

My prayers are extended to all of you who have experienced this loss.

Prettty Leaf

[Hope MT]

Well thanks.....I can sense the kindness in you guys.....

For us friends, we went through a special kind of loss over all of this.......seeing our friends so helpless in their grief over their child's death where even the so-called expert grief counsellors were at a loss as to how to handle this......they themselves were into unchartered waters

In many ways it was like a loss of innocence being that close......not unlike the way we all felt the morning of Sept. 11..........can you still totally digest how simply stunned you felt and helpless?.......that's kind of what it was like during all those proceedings trying to be there for them but "winging it" as we went along......

I could go on for hours but I'll close for now.....

thanks! (strange how the words come out like it was just yesterday)

[Anthea Delano]

But the family's testimony left several holes in the story. In effective cross-examinations by Rosen, mother and daughter conceded that Bernardo's abuse of Karla occurred only in the last six months of the relationship, after the murders of Mahaffy and French. Until then, they acknowledged, Homolka and Bernardo appeared to be a happy, loving couple. They also agreed with Rosen that, shortly after the French murder, something happened between Homolka and Bernardo that destroyed their marriage. But they said they had no idea what it was.

From the Canadian Encyclopedia
http://tinyurl.com/8ukpq

[malvolio]

Originally posted by Pennibelle


I have a question for you. I live in the US, Denver, Colorado.

It is very hard for me to understand/believe that if a large number of Canadians were to ban together and protest this disgusting, conscience-less, ruling........it's hard to believe that change would not/could not happen.

Is it that the vast majority of Canadians complain and such behind closed doors but choose not to take action and fight for change?

I'm not making accusations here, I am genuinely trying to understand why something as ridiculous as this could happen.

Also, question is does Canada have a Death penalty?? If so...why did that Bernardo monster get life instead of what he truly deserves.

Thank you for you time.

Best Regard,

Pennibelle

A large number of Canadians did protest the fact that Karla received her sweetheart deal on the basis of a lie: that her involvement was not as great as it would later prove to be on the notorious tapes. That said, a great number of Canadians also realize that, unfortunately, a deal is a deal. The government made some mistakes making that deal, but they did make that deal, and unfortunately, if the deal is reneged because the Canadian public doesn't like it, then future "deals" may be put into jeopardy, in other words, it would make our judicial system less effective when it comes to doing their job.

The vast majority of Canadians are heard by their government. We don't have to complain, we vote. That is why we are not in Iraq, that is why we have a medicare system, that is why we do not have a death penalty.

You assume we are not outraged enough by Karla Homolka's actions and present freedom. Nothing could be farther from the truth, but we respect our government enough to stand by its decisions and decision-makers. That is because, for the most part, our government cleary represents the will of its people (and not the other way around, as is the case in some countries).

[Hope MT]

And besides, Paul Bernardo's first lawyer, Ken Murray went into the crime scene on Paul's orders, stood up on a chair and reached deep into the ceiling above a "pot light" and kept the videotapes in his office or wherever while he was at the same time calling the deal with Karla a "pact with the devil".......if he had turned those tapes in, Karla would have been gone for good along with Paul. Unfortunately it didn't happen and it's still unclear if Murray actually viewed the tapes but in my mind, he was an officer of the court still and should have known that he may be concealing material evidence on behalf of his client. John Rosen, Bernardo's second lawyer did the right thing when he received the tapes from Murray and immediately got advice from the Law Society.
I was happy that Bernardo had the best lawyer available actually because he can't say he didn't receive a fair trial.......By Rosen doing a good job in representing him, it actually helps the families and society in the end (no appeal)

The Crown took a shot at prosecuting Murray but in the end he slipped through loopholes in the interpretation of client priviledge.....not a surprise.......sighhhhhh

The only good in this sad affair is that the Crown Attorney's Office has learned to dot their "I"s and cross their "T"s before they proceed with something so serious........and I do believe Karla had told them about tapes.......but they never found them in the search......so her defence obviously is "see?......I never lied"....


ughhhhhhhh

[Anthea Delano]

Originally posted by Hope MT
And besides, Paul Bernardo's first lawyer, Ken Murray went into the crime scene on Paul's orders, stood up on a chair and reached deep into the ceiling above a "pot light" and kept the videotapes in his office or wherever while he was at the same time calling the deal with Karla a "pact with the devil".......if he had turned those tapes in, Karla would have been gone for good along with Paul. Unfortunately it didn't happen and it's still unclear if Murray actually viewed the tapes but in my mind, he was an officer of the court still and should have known that he may be concealing material evidence on behalf of his client. John Rosen, Bernardo's second lawyer did the right thing when he received the tapes from Murray and immediately got advice from the Law Society.
I was happy that Bernardo had the best lawyer available actually because he can't say he didn't receive a fair trial.......By Rosen doing a good job in representing him, it actually helps the families and society in the end (no appeal)

The Crown took a shot at prosecuting Murray but in the end he slipped through loopholes in the interpretation of client priviledge.....not a surprise.......sighhhhhh

The only good in this sad affair is that the Crown Attorney's Office has learned to dot their "I"s and cross their "T"s before they proceed with something so serious........and I do believe Karla had told them about tapes.......but they never found them in the search......so her defence obviously is "see?......I never lied"....


ughhhhhhhh

It is exceedingly frustrating. I don't understand why they did not recind the deal due to Jane Doe.

[Hope MT]

well, the main problem was that the Crown's Office was sort of painted into a corner here...........if they needed to convict Bernardo they had to paint Karla as a victim of domestic violence because they never had the tapes at the time so on the record, they had to present evidence of domestic abuse and the consequences.......and if you were to buy into that theory, you would have to accept that one sympton of abuse is memory loss....or foggy memory at least....sort of like Post Traumatic Syndrome......soooooooo, there's her "alibi" so to speak......"ooops, I forgot"......

Sort of a "Catch-22" for sure!.........can you believe the lucky breaks she got?......

I don't blame the police or the Crown for this at all.........it's just something that happened and they've all learned from it now....hopefully.....

The "VICLAS" computer database system was one good change which now gets different Police Services entering data which is shared by all.

On a lighter note, "Law and Order" did a segment based on this case.......in the end, the woman judge tore up the "deal" and sent Karla into the crowbar hotel for good!.....no parole!........leaving the prosecution and defense looking at eah other like deer caught in the headlights......lol

[Anthea Delano]

As you might be able to discern from my posts I believe that K was not a victim of DV. The Teale's history, starting from their first encounter, indicates that K was an active participant, not a passive coerced player. There are too many divergent factors which eliminate the abuse excuse.

Her mother's and her sister's testimony is more consistent with a relationship that went on the rocks near the end, than with a long term DV situation.

Did her father testify?

[Hope MT]

I've been reading a lot of your posts and you do indeed seem to be really educated on this case and have some very relevant perspectives on things.

Personally I agree with you that something went wrong......perhaps it was the stress of now hiding crimes and looking over their shoulders that took it's toll instead of the "free-wheeling" lifestyle they were leading. Instead of being the "hunters", they were becoming the "hunted". A little paranoia and mistrust between the two most likely crept into the equation.

When Paul turned on Karla it sure didn't take her long to get brave now did it?.........Karla a victim?.......yah right :rolleyes:


I don't recall either way if Karla's father took the stand as he stayed off the radar most of the time if I recall.

[kansas queen]

I'm stunned by all I've read but not surprised. My heart aches for ALL of those collateral victims (survivors?)

I'm still doing research on KH re the dv issue. So far nothing sparks off my dv spark plug! But, I'm not done and should probly reserve my opinion for a later date.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate you Canadians being open and frank with us in whose backyard this crime clearly wasn't.

I had NO idea about the hidden tapes! That just BOGGLES my mind!

Ok and one more question ... does Canada have the Son of Sam law similar to some US states where a convict nor his/her assignee(s) can benefit financially in any way, shape or manner from the crime(s) of which they were convicted?

[Hope MT]

We have a law called C-22 (I believe that's what it's called) which is called the "Proceeds of Crime" law.......however, that only covers the actual profits from the crime itself........for example, a huge drug dealer can have his expensive home, vehicles, cash etc stripped from him/her if they can prove the drug money financed these things.........it happens regularly with organized crime up here where they lose everything the cops can get their hands on.

However, it seems we can't do anything about a person like Karla selling her story AFTER she has completed her sentence. Lawyer Tim Danson however was smart in that he filed a civil lawsuit aginst the both of them on behalf of the French and Mahaffy families for the future......here's a link I found for you....

click here (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20050628/homolka_profit_050627?s_name=&no_ads=)

[kansas queen]

Originally posted by Hope MT
We have a law called C-22 (I believe that's what it's called) which is called the "Proceeds of Crime" law.......however, that only covers the actual profits from the crime itself........for example, a huge drug dealer can have his expensive home, vehicles, cash etc stripped from him/her if they can prove the drug money financed these things.........it happens regularly with organized crime up here where they lose everything the cops can get their hands on.

However, it seems we can't do anything about a person like Karla selling her story AFTER she has completed her sentence. Lawyer Tim Danson however was smart in that he filed a civil lawsuit aginst the both of them on behalf of the French and Mahaffy families for the future......here's a link I found for you....

click here (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20050628/homolka_profit_050627?s_name=&no_ads=)

Thanks again so much for the information and link. But, now I have more questions.

Did the families' suit go through? If so, they should be able to attach any income she receives from ANYTHING, including, but not limited to proceeds say from a book or movie deal. Even if she won the lottery in the U.S., the families in the civil suit should be able to attach it.

Ok, so again, my "frame of reference" is US civil law in regards to the families.

I defer to you to give Canadian law on these matters.

TIA!

[Anthea Delano]

Originally posted by Hope MT
I've been reading a lot of your posts and you do indeed seem to be really educated on this case and have some very relevant perspectives on things.

Personally I agree with you that something went wrong......perhaps it was the stress of now hiding crimes and looking over their shoulders that took it's toll instead of the "free-wheeling" lifestyle they were leading. Instead of being the "hunters", they were becoming the "hunted". A little paranoia and mistrust between the two most likely crept into the equation.

When Paul turned on Karla it sure didn't take her long to get brave now did it?.........Karla a victim?.......yah right :rolleyes:


I don't recall either way if Karla's father took the stand as he stayed off the radar most of the time if I recall.
Very astute and apt metaphor, the hunters as the hunted! It is a brilliant observation and fits with the available information.

[Hope MT]

As far as the lawsuit is concerned, I know it was filed and it seems to me that it was concluded with neither Bernardo or Homolka responding to it......it's just one of those things that I don't ask much about. If it is on the books, it will have to wait until Karla actually has something of value in her name to go after. And I doubt that will happen any time soon. It's hard to garnishee wages with a private lawsuit judgement also.

here's a link to a pretty good timeline of when things happened that may help you out........are you writing a book?

click here (http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/badgirls/homolkatimeline.htm)

[kansas queen]

Originally posted by Hope MT
As far as the lawsuit is concerned, I know it was filed and it seems to me that it was concluded with neither Bernardo or Homolka responding to it......it's just one of those things that I don't ask much about. If it is on the books, it will have to wait until Karla actually has something of value in her name to go after. And I doubt that will happen any time soon. It's hard to garnishee wages with a private lawsuit judgement also.

here's a link to a pretty good timeline of when things happened that may help you out........are you writing a book?

click here (http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/badgirls/homolkatimeline.htm) Me writing a book? No, just a sponge where laws are concerned, both criminal and civil. Thanks again for the link!

[northernrflxn]

Originally posted by Hope MT
if he had turned those tapes in, Karla would have been gone for good along with Paul.

Hi Hope. This is a point that is rejected by those involved in the original deal on both sides to this day. In fact, it has been described as one of the enduring 'myths' in a case with many.

On a personal note, I am a poster who takes a position not easy to take publicly - that of a degree of empathy for Karla Homolka and a sense that although justice was not done perfectly it was done adequately. Compassion for Homolka does not take away any from that which I have for the victims, and I have always thought of the Mahaffey family as a family that bore the worst of all this in some ways.

[Pretty Leaf]

Originally posted by northernrflxn


Hi Hope. This is a point that is rejected by those involved in the original deal on both sides to this day. In fact, it has been described as one of the enduring 'myths' in a case with many.

On a personal note, I am a poster who takes a position not easy to take publicly - that of a degree of empathy for Karla Homolka and a sense that although justice was not done perfectly it was done adequately. Compassion for Homolka does not take away any from that which I have for the victims, and I have always thought of the Mahaffey family as a family that bore the worst of all this in some ways.

I understand your point of view is diffrent from most but I don't understand how you can say that Karla's sentance was in any adequate.

Secondly, how is the Mahaffrey family any worse than the French's? Is it because they locked her out of the home when she went missing therefore that is worse than French's?

I, IMO have no sympathy for any others in this web of Karla and Paul.

Just asking for your take on this.

[kansas queen]

Originally posted by northernrflxn


Hi Hope. This is a point that is rejected by those involved in the original deal on both sides to this day. In fact, it has been described as one of the enduring 'myths' in a case with many.

On a personal note, I am a poster who takes a position not easy to take publicly - that of a degree of empathy for Karla Homolka and a sense that although justice was not done perfectly it was done adequately. Compassion for Homolka does not take away any from that which I have for the victims, and I have always thought of the Mahaffey family as a family that bore the worst of all this in some ways. That's interesting, northernflxn. Do you feel that KH was a dv survivor or do you feel some other way ??? Just curious because I've been re-looking at this case with an eye towards dv.

TIA for your reply.

[malvolio]

Originally posted by Hope MT
here's a link to a pretty good timeline of when things happened that may help you out........are you writing a book?

click here (http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/badgirls/homolkatimeline.htm)

Extensive time-line! Thanks for the link, it took me over an hour to read, but way worth it. Just reading it brought back all sorts of details I had forgotten and some new ones I knew nothing about...like when they exhumed Tammmy's body in 1993 they found the wedding invitation (unbelievable -- I wonder what the short messages from Karla and Paul were?). I also had forgotten that, unbelievably, Paul returned the unused portions of cement he used to encase Leslie to the store and even signed the receipt for the refund!!! What a shallow "braniac!"
I was shocked as well, remembering the number of times they nearly caught Paul -- I say "nearly caught," but they really screwed up, didn't they?:
- Investigator for the Scarborough Rapist case literally runs into Paul at at busstop in 1988.
- Or, shockingly, just nine months before Kristen is abducted, Paul's car is called in by the boyfriend of a woman he is stalking.
- Or, even more shocking, Shanna and Kerry Patrich call in details about Paul and his car not once, but twice! The first time is two weeks before he abducts Kristen and the second time is while she is still alive inside the Bernardo/Homolka residence.
Reading the time-line I had to wonder, again, did the Bernardos' know Tammy was drinking alcohol??? It seems that way, considering her behavior on tape earlier on where she seems quite intoxicated (we now know why) and her parents are still up.
I also noticed the Homolkas bailed Karla out of prison in May/1993 by putting their house up (her bail was set at $110,000), and that they held a "going-away" pool-party for her in June/1993...So, I guess, that answers my question as to how they could stay at the residence where their daughter was murdered (by her sister, no less), and where Paul Bernardo once resided (albeit, briefly).
I also remembered a couple of other things about the case that I haven't seen very much in the media, and maybe I'm just missing, like when Karla took the police through the residence to point out the "incident" areas, she was extremely concerned about knick-knacks that were missing -- something that she got for her wedding??? -- and also, wanted to know when she could get stuff back (I thought back to that when I saw Scott Peterson's concern for his car door).
Also, I remember Paul making this really awful "suicide-tape" that they actually played on the media briefly. On it he's BAWLING, and moaning and crying out for Karla -- it's goofier than his rap-tapes if you can believe it, but I never heard it again...do you remember that???

One last thing in this overly-long post, I noticed that all the photos of Karla on the Time-line site were incorrectly labelled "Tammy." There is a nude photo, and so, I e-mailed the site and let them know. In case anyone is concerned.

Please keep up your postings! Always interesting and pertinent!

[kansas queen]

That was a LOT of work done there (putting the timeline together). I've bookmarked it for future reference ... when I get confused about the timing of events, etc.

BRAVO!

[Hope MT]

Wow!.great post Malvolio !........glad that time-line helped you out......

Anyhow, I just opened my file again after a few years and boy did it bring me right back to those days.

Here's something I can share. Back when the media went to court trying to get access to the videotapes and have them played openly in court, I was asked by Tim Danson to submit a letter to the court as an exhibit attached to the motion/application. I'm looking at the front page of the motion as I type (I was given a copy) and am shaking my head again as I read who was fighting the families for access to the tapes.....

verbatim, the list is as follows:

Thomson Newspapers Company Limited (carrying on business as The Globe and Mail)

The Toronto Star Newspapers Limited

The Toronto Sun Publishing Corporation

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

The Canadian Press and Broadcast News Ltd.

Stephen Williams


Of course Stephen Williams is the one "author" in all of this who, in my opinion was taking advantage of the families and whose motive was purely to profit from the case.........he hurt them deeply many times. He ran all over the States appearing on tabloid shows pretending he was the "expert" on this case and everyone should speak to him only.........total scumbag !

All the other authors were very good and respectful.

Oh yah, referring to the post of Malvolio again, I agree it was bizzare that Paul returned any unused concrete for a rebate........thereby creating a paper trail for the original purchase ...........what an idiot!.......(glad he did though as it helped the case against him)

[keys]

The media should have had the common courtesy to step out of the picture and demand nothing, out of respect for the families. I don't understand why anyone would even want to see those tapes in the first place. Even the transcripts seem a bit too much, at times. Even without audio and video, they are disrespectful to 3 innocent girls who undoubtedly wouldn't even want the transcripts of their suffering to be seen by strangers (i.e. the public).

As many of you have probably heard, there are rumors - though I'm not sure how much truth there is to them - that there is still a copy of the tapes around, if my memory isn't off, that Williams might have a set. I sincerely hope not - with P2P it could be a nightmare if the tapes ever get leaked onto the Internet.

I can't say I'm much of a Williams fan either. I tried reading his books but ended up abandonning them both halfway because they were just too poorly written. The Pron book (the only one I read in full), was pretty decent, though.

[Hope MT]

Yup Keys, Williams did get ahold of the tapes showing Tammy and sold them to HBO.

He's a predator in himself if you ask me and has really intruded into this case trying to make it his own.......like he's the end all and be all of everything to do with the case........the guy disgusts me, and even more importantly to him, most decent journalists across Canada....

check this story out from Jan.15/05

click here (http://www.fradical.com/Bernardo_Video_Clip_Sold_to_HBO.htm)

[Anthea Delano]

He is vile, but His Vileness got through to K, because she corresponded with him. He posted her handwritten letters to him on the internet. For this, he gets a few points.

[keys]

Originally posted by Anthea Delano
He posted her handwritten letters to him on the internet. For this, he gets a few points.

Why?

[kansas queen]

Originally posted by keys

<snipped for emphasis only> The media should have had the common courtesy

A generalized comment: media + common courtesy = oxymoron

IMO, OMO and not always but in MANY instances!

[Anthea Delano]

Originally posted by kansas queen


A generalized comment: media + common courtesy = oxymoron

IMO, OMO and not always but in MANY instances!

The media has issues which are only getting worse. Gloria Aldred has been gagged from speaking about the latest case with which she is involved. Her d, Lisa Bloom, has interviewed her which diminishes her d's objectivity as a journalist. You would think she would recuse herself due to ethics.

[kansas queen]

Originally posted by Anthea Delano


The media has issues which are only getting worse. Gloria Aldred has been gagged from speaking about the latest case with which she is involved. Her d, Lisa Bloom, has interviewed her which diminishes her d's objectivity as a journalist. You would think she would recuse herself due to ethics. Actually I think that Gloria and Lisa LOVE having that time together on air and play it to the hilt. Gloria recusing herself ?? awe c'mon Anthea, ya gotta know better! lol

[Hope MT]

I definately will !

Leslie's Dad drops by once every couple of weeks for a coffee and we chat about stuff so I'll for sure bring this thread up and show him.......he's such a good guy and a dear friend......my heart aches for him at times after he leaves to go home.......Hey, he came as my guest to the Tiger-Cats/ Argonauts game here in Hamilton on Labour Day.....we kicked the Argos butts!....We had a great day!....All my friends at the game gave him a great welcome!

cheers! :)

[2L8 4A D8]

Hi Hope!

I just wanted to say what a pleasure and honor it is to have you here on the Karla Board. I look forward to reading your posts. Even though I am not Canadian, my heart absolutely aches for the Mahaffy and French families. It is amazing to see how they have managed to cope with losing Leslie and Kristen.

Please give the Mahaffy's my best regards and let them know that they are not grieving alone. There are a lot of Canadians and Americans who share in their grief.

Thank you! :patriot:

:rose: For Leslie and Her Family!

:rose: For Kristen and Her Family!

[kansas queen]

Absolutely 2L8 4A D8! This case/victims will be remembered forever!

It's SO tragic and sad for the families of the victims (Mahaffey and French).

:rose: :rose:

[Hope MT]

Will do "2L8"

thanks :patriot:

(Good luck to all the fine Americans helping Iraq in their elections today)...dangerous work but well worth it on my opinion.......but that's another discussion in it's self

[northernrflxn]

Originally posted by Pretty Leaf


I understand your point of view is diffrent from most but I don't understand how you can say that Karla's sentance was in any adequate.

Secondly, how is the Mahaffrey family any worse than the French's? Is it because they locked her out of the home when she went missing therefore that is worse than French's?

I, IMO have no sympathy for any others in this web of Karla and Paul.

Just asking for your take on this.

Though I don't intend in any way for my thoughts to seem to minimize the loss of the French and Homolka families, there are a number of reasons that Leslie's murder really, really resonated with me.

First, I was much more like Leslie than Kristen when I was a teen, so can personally identify with her. Though it has faded with time, there was an inital portrayal of Kristen as more of a 'true' victim than Leslie that was subtle, but definitely there. I always thought that that must have been hard for her family. It is my understanding that there were frantic days in the beginning when the Mahaffeys were alone in their fright and panic because the police gave a half hearted effort at best, believing Leslie to be a runaway because of her history.

I don't know if the 'key' story is accurate or not, but whether it is or it isn't, I always imagined the Mahaffeys torturing themselves with 'what ifs' and 'if onlys' that stretched back well beyond the immediate days before Leslie's abduction even though neither they or Leslie deserved one bit of blame. Also, Leslie's abduction was just so, so random. Wrong place, wrong time. Just agonizing to accept.

Leslie was younger and less stoic than Kristen, who I think came to accept the inevitibility of her fate and faced it with great strength and diginity that TOTALLY shamed her captors and made them very, very small even while they held the power of life and death over her. In contrast, Leslie had no way to know what would happen to her because there was no community fear yet and she was just so desperate and confused and terrified. The story of her cries for her family and little brother could move a rock to tears.

Finally, the indignity to Leslie's body was more than I could ever, every imagine bearing as a mother myself. So that, in a nutshell, is why I have always said extra prayers for the Mahaffey family.

With regard to my belief that justice was mostly served in this case (this is for you to Kansas - thanks for your interst in my views) it would take pages and pages, and this forum is not really one for debate. It is more about celebrating the lives of the victims, mourning their loss and venting anger at those that took them- and that's fine. There are places on the internet where debate is welcome and productive, but here is not one of them.

[malvolio]

Originally posted by northernrflxn


Though I don't intend in any way for my thoughts to seem to minimize the loss of the French and Homolka families, there are a number of reasons that Leslie's murder really, really resonated with me.

First, I was much more like Leslie than Kristen when I was a teen, so can personally identify with her. Though it has faded with time, there was an inital portrayal of Kristen as more of a 'true' victim than Leslie that was subtle, but definitely there. I always thought that that must have been hard for her family. It is my understanding that there were frantic days in the beginning when the Mahaffeys were alone in their fright and panic because the police gave a half hearted effort at best, believing Leslie to be a runaway because of her history.

I don't know if the 'key' story is accurate or not, but whether it is or it isn't, I always imagined the Mahaffeys torturing themselves with 'what ifs' and 'if onlys' that stretched back well beyond the immediate days before Leslie's abduction even though neither they or Leslie deserved one bit of blame. Also, Leslie's abduction was just so, so random. Wrong place, wrong time. Just agonizing to accept.

Leslie was younger and less stoic than Kristen, who I think came to accept the inevitibility of her fate and faced it with great strength and diginity that TOTALLY shamed her captors and made them very, very small even while they held the power of life and death over her. In contrast, Leslie had no way to know what would happen to her because there was no community fear yet and she was just so desperate and confused and terrified. The story of her cries for her family and little brother could move a rock to tears.

Finally, the indignity to Leslie's body was more than I could ever, every imagine bearing as a mother myself. So that, in a nutshell, is why I have always said extra prayers for the Mahaffey family.

With regard to my belief that justice was mostly served in this case (this is for you to Kansas - thanks for your interst in my views) it would take pages and pages, and this forum is not really one for debate. It is more about celebrating the lives of the victims, mourning their loss and venting anger at those that took them- and that's fine. There are places on the internet where debate is welcome and productive, but here is not one of them.

...very moved by your post. Thank you.

[Hope MT]

Ditto.....that was a wonderful, well thought out post.

[Pretty Leaf]

Thanks for answering my post. Insightful and new points of view for me to ponder. we all have to kep our minds open to others opinion for there we will be informed

[Hope MT]

Great point "pretty leaf"......we live in a wonderful society that allows everyone's opinion to be expressed.....there's nothing like good old fashioned debate!......as long as everyone's point of view is respected.....what a boring world this would be if everyone thought the same way.

Well it looks like the forums will be shut down for a few days so I hope everyone has an awesome weekend!

Cheers! :beer:

( I invite any of the posters in these "Karla" forums to "private message" me if they want my e-mail address.....I'd like to discuss the case further with some of you as I'm astounded that you have a real good grasp on things ...totally impressed :seeya: )

[Anthea Delano]

Did the Homolka's print their usual Christmas message?

[2L8 4A D8]

Originally posted by Anthea Delano
Did the Homolka's print their usual Christmas message?

Yes, they sure did and as usual, they signed Karla's name to it. Everybody was outraged as usual too!! I am sorry, but there is something definitely, definitely wrong with Karla's parents to do such a thing.

JMO and MOO!!

[Anthea Delano]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8


Yes, they sure did and as usual, they signed Karla's name to it. Everybody was outraged as usual too!! I am sorry, but there is something definitely, definitely wrong with Karla's parents to do such a thing.

JMO and MOO!! [/QUOTE

I made an unsuccessful attempt to find it so that we could see it for ourselves via a link.

I agree with your assessment.

The prison going away party and this yearly memorial letter are truly odd.

In order to survive this horror, they are attempting to publically support Karla, but their choices to me, indicate it isn't so much about support as it is about denial.

[2L8 4A D8]

Originally posted by Anthea Delano

I made an unsuccessful attempt to find it so that we could see it for ourselves via a link.

I agree with your assessment.

The prison going away party and this yearly memorial letter are truly odd.

In order to survive this horror, they are attempting to publically support Karla, but their choices to me, indicate it isn't so much about support as it is about denial.

I will try to find the link Anthea. I know that I read it in a link. Just have to remember where and when!

[VictorianLady]

Hello everyone, I'm from Victoria (vancouver island) and I've been following this case since before she was freed. (I hate the way this has turned out, she should be in solitary confinement like P)
My condolences to the families these two devils have harmed.
I also was angry to see a film made from these monsters, and I was once a Laura Prepon fan (70's show, plays the beast Karla in the movie) but am not anymore, I'm actually boycotting that program (it has steadly went down hill anyways) I flicked the channel on there once, and what do I hear first thing, Prepons character glamorizing how to dispose of a body. (in reference to how Leslie was disposed) Well, I went to search for her actual comment on the show to complain about it, and I found this link:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0424938/
go right down to "message boards" you will see alot of posts that made my jaw drop open!(you might have to register, but its free) It is sad how misinformed people are. I for one follow this case because SHE'S FREE NOW! I hate that. Anyway, I didn't find the quote, but it's one of the newer shows made for this season. I just wanted to share this, because these posts (from the link) has the publics views and opinion about K&P are rather disturbing.
Just thought I'd share this. Thanks for taking the time to read my rant.

[Shelby428z]

Hi VictorianLady,

I disagree with this statement:

"Hello everyone, I'm from Victoria (vancouver island) and I've been following this case since before she was freed. (I hate the way this has turned out, she should be in solitary confinement like P)"

Au contraire, I feel he should be in the general population. Cut him loose in GP and may he feel the love! :) sick twisted $%#^$

[VictorianLady]

Originally posted by Shelby428z
Hi VictorianLady,

I disagree with this statement:

"Hello everyone, I'm from Victoria (vancouver island) and I've been following this case since before she was freed. (I hate the way this has turned out, she should be in solitary confinement like P)"

Au contraire, I feel he should be in the general population. Cut him loose in GP and may he feel the love! :) sick twisted $%#^$

I couldn't agree more with you! They both deserve what they dished out. Nothing more, nothing less.:flamemad:

Wish we had texas justice over up here! :patriot: