Richard Ramirez

[ViciousVamp]

Does anyone know if Richard Ramirez is still alive or has he been executed?

[2L8 4A D8]

Unfortunately, he is still alive. He got LWOP so the only way that he is going to get out is in a pine box. He also got married a while back.

[ripper]

So why haven't they executed him yet?

[MrToadsWildRide]

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8
Unfortunately, he is still alive. He got LWOP so the only way that he is going to get out is in a pine box. He also got married a while back.

LWOP? He is on Death Row...San Quentin.He is one of the most brutal serial killers I have ever read about.He gave me nightmares.:chicken:

[FeelinFroggy617]

Originally posted by MrToadsWildRide


LWOP? He is on Death Row...San Quentin.He is one of the most brutal serial killers I have ever read about.He gave me nightmares.:chicken:


And if I'm not mistaken, SOMEONE actually married him!!! :rolleyes:

[MrToadsWildRide]

Yes indeed...what in the he!! was she thinking?:chicken:

[barskin&co.]

Originally posted by FeelinFroggy617



And if I'm not mistaken, SOMEONE actually married him!!! :rolleyes:


Ah yes, the lovely, if not particularly sane, Doreen Lioy (http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/(AP)%20Richard%20&%20Doreen,%20wedding%20(200).jpg)

[2L8 4A D8]

Don't ya just hate it when a newbie starts a Thread and asks a question and then you never hear from them again? WTH? What's up with that? At least you should come back and thank everybody for their responses and end the Thread, but to just leave it hanging and hanging, well, I just don't get it! Sorry to vent!

JMO and MOO!!

[decneirepxxxe]

Ramirez was murdering folks up and down the I5 corridor in So Cal the summer my daughter was born. We lived about 5 miles from the freeway in Laguna Beach at the time and it was a very hot summer. I remember sleeping with the windows closed, we lived in a yellow house and ramirez was hitting yellow houses.

[CalifMermaid]

I was 15 and I couldn't sleep at night because I was so afraid he would break in the house while I was sleeping. I stayed up late every night for a week until they caught him

I can't begin to imagine the terror you guys felt with that man on the loose.

[decneirepxxxe]

Originally posted by luvvie
I can't begin to imagine the terror you guys felt with that man on the loose.

It was scary. Scarier was years earlier when my prior husband briefly represented Wm Bonin. I was at his house with his partner the day the cops came to dig in the back yard looking for bodies.

[Adalena935]

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8
Unfortunately, he is still alive. He got LWOP so the only way that he is going to get out is in a pine box. He also got married a while back.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/trial_9.html

On November 9, he was officially sentenced to death nineteen times.

[Cinnared]

Originally posted by Phil306
Richard Ramirez is just a misunderstood man. He is conforming to Jesus Christ, admitting his sins, is married, is writing children books, and is giving law enforcement insight to a serial killers mind.

I believe we should commute his death penalty, to life in prison; even with the possiblity of parole. Just because he killed all those people doesn't mean he cannot change and become a productive member of society. He is already doing so. Jesus says: Thou shalt not kill.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Yea Right

[Bandz0408]

Originally posted by Phil306
Richard Ramirez is just a misunderstood man. He is conforming to Jesus Christ, admitting his sins, is married, is writing children books, and is giving law enforcement insight to a serial killers mind.

I believe we should commute his death penalty, to life in prison; even with the possiblity of parole. Just because he killed all those people doesn't mean he cannot change and become a productive member of society. He is already doing so. Jesus says: Thou shalt not kill.



So basically he is another TOokie, hes writing a book so we should let him go. PLEASE. IF he were to ever get out of jail, his rage might again build up and he may start killing again.

Kill him now before he has that chance again.

And while your at it, ask his victims if they believed in god.

:rose: :rose: FOr all his victims.

[Bandz0408]

Originally posted by Phil306
Man, you guys can't see my original post was DRIPPING in sarcasm???

Actually I was going with sarcasm until I read the "thou shall not kill" part, I thought for sure you were serious at that point :)

[Talking Tina]

Originally posted by ViciousVamp
Does anyone know if Richard Ramirez is still alive or has he been executed?

still very much alive and on death row at San Quentin state prison. He's appeals are nearly exhausted and his execution will most likely be in a year or two (possibly alot less than that). There are two executions ahead of him.

[Talking Tina]

Originally posted by Phil306
Man, you guys can't see my original post was DRIPPING in sarcasm???

DRIPPING? Luv it! :tongue: :tongue:

[CardShark]

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8
Don't ya just hate it when a newbie starts a Thread and asks a question and then you never hear from them again? WTH? What's up with that? At least you should come back and thank everybody for their responses and end the Thread, but to just leave it hanging and hanging, well, I just don't get it! Sorry to vent!

JMO and MOO!!

Personally speaking, I dislike it more when a seasoned poster responds with totally incorrect information as you did in the first response on this thread.

Perhaps the original poster was confused by the conflicting/false responses.

Ramirez didn't get LWOP. He received the death penalty and is currently on death row.

[JuJu]

I believe I heard somewhere that his marriage didn't last. I don't think his wife was too tightly wrapped to begin with but I guess there is someone for everyone. :rolleyes:

Did he really write a children's book? Someone please tell me that was a joke...

[Talking Tina]

Originally posted by JuJu
I believe I heard somewhere that his marriage didn't last. I don't think his wife was too tightly wrapped to begin with but I guess there is someone for everyone. :rolleyes:

Did he really write a children's book? Someone please tell me that was a joke...

no, executed San Quentin prisoner Tookie Williams wrote a children's book. Not Ramirez. I'm for death penalty too. Ramirez is coming up soon I hope. He deserves it.

[CTA2RLS]

Didn't his wife say if he is executed she will kill herself? Will the state of CA have a suicide watch on her the day he is executed?

[ravenonic]

I hope not.... She should die too...LOL

[Talking Tina]

Originally posted by CTA2RLS
Didn't his wife say if he is executed she will kill herself? Will the state of CA have a suicide watch on her the day he is executed?

Someone once told me she vowed to. They're still married but reportedly, not together anymore.

Or so I heard. Whats the attraction to him? :chicken: :shrug:

[barskin&co.]

Originally posted by Phil306
Richard Ramirez is just a misunderstood man. He is conforming to Jesus Christ, admitting his sins, is married, is writing children books, and is giving law enforcement insight to a serial killers mind.

I believe we should commute his death penalty, to life in prison; even with the possiblity of parole. Just because he killed all those people doesn't mean he cannot change and become a productive member of society. He is already doing so. Jesus says: Thou shalt not kill.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


You have to understand, Phil, there are actually a few loonies who post here who believe that sort of thing (although the rolleyes should have been a tip off, I admit). For instance, there are people who believe that Jeffrey MacDonald, who savagely stabbed to death his own pregnant wife and two very young daughters, has been in prison "long enough."

[barskin&co.]

Originally posted by Talking Tina


Someone once told me she vowed to. They're still married but reportedly, not together anymore.

Or so I heard. Whats the attraction to him? :chicken: :shrug:

He has lots of groupies fighting over him, who think he is really "hot." For the sake of brevity, I refer to this these type of women as lunatics.

[Talking Tina]

Originally posted by barskin&co.


He has lots of groupies fighting over him, who think he is really "hot." For the sake of brevity, I refer to this these type of women as lunatics.

tell me about it. Desperate.....and lonely. SHeesh!

not my cup o' tea at all! i mean serial killers! :chicken:

[Talking Tina]

Originally posted by CTA2RLS
Didn't his wife say if he is executed she will kill herself? Will the state of CA have a suicide watch on her the day he is executed?

thats what she says...she'll kill herself when he's executed. but she said that a long long time ago.

i don't know much about it though......her or him. :chicken:

[*polly*ramirez*]

tnx god he's still alive!!!
and his wife isnt the only one who's going to commit suicide if richard dies...
richard is the most beautiful man in this world...
ljubim ga na wso moè!!
moj mali srèek
**mwwa**

[barskin&co.]

Originally posted by barskin&co.
He has lots of groupies fighting over him, who think he is really "hot." For the sake of brevity, I refer to this these type of women as lunatics.

Originally posted by *polly*ramirez*
tnx god he's still alive!!!
and his wife isnt the only one who's going to commit suicide if richard dies...
richard is the most beautiful man in this world...
ljubim ga na wso mo?!
moj mali srèek
**mwwa**

I rest my case.

[cami]

Originally posted by barskin&co.




I rest my case.

:lol: :lol:

[doreenramirez55]

I can see why no one has posted here about Richard since March 2006--quite a bit of misinformation floating around here. For the record, my husband does not have an execution date; he is still at a relatively early stage of the appellate process. Secondly, Richard and I are very much together. Rumors generally start when people have no access to the facts. Thank you to the people who have been supportive to Richard over the years.

[2L8 4A D8]

LWOP? He is on Death Row...San Quentin.He is one of the most brutal serial killers I have ever read about.He gave me nightmares.:chicken:

Thank you. I stand corrected!

[Paul Richardson]

Richard Ramirez is definitely the ugliest serial killer who ever lived--a publisher of a Hispanic Newspaper in California stated that he should be executed just on the fact that he was too ugly to live---Ramirez right now is suffering from emphysema and lung cancer and doesn't have long to live as per SQV who is a poster on another board who visits her brother on Death Row frequently--Ramirez is struggling to breathe as we speak and thank God for that--I believe he also had most of his teeth torn out many years go in prison because,with his abnormal fear of dentists, he had just let his teeth rot away--During his infamous murders,Ramirez was in constant pain from his rotten smelly teeth--hopefully this rabid dog killer will soon drop dead and that now appears to be happening

[2L8 4A D8]

Richard Ramirez is definitely the ugliest serial killer who ever lived--a publisher of a Hispanic Newspaper in California stated that he should be executed just on the fact that he was too ugly to live---Ramirez right now is suffering from emphysema and lung cancer and doesn't have long to live as per SQV who is a poster on another board who visits her brother on Death Row frequently--Ramirez is struggling to breathe as we speak and thank God for that--I believe he also had most of his teeth torn out many years go in prison because,with his abnormal fear of dentists, he had just let his teeth rot away--During his infamous murders,Ramirez was in constant pain from his rotten smelly teeth--hopefully this rabid dog killer will soon drop dead and that now appears to be happening

Well, what goes around ~ comes around and not soon enough either! At least it will be one less killer scumbag that the Taxpayers of the State of California will have to foot the bill for!

:mad: Buh Bye Richard and Good Riddance! :seeya:

JMO and MOO!!

[diamond d]

I can see why no one has posted here about Richard since March 2006--quite a bit of misinformation floating around here. For the record, my husband does not have an execution date; he is still at a relatively early stage of the appellate process. Secondly, Richard and I are very much together. Rumors generally start when people have no access to the facts. Thank you to the people who have been supportive to Richard over the years.


As if your his wife ... if you are answer this question, what does Richard have under his right armpit?

[2L8 4A D8]

As if your his wife ... if you are answer this question, what does Richard have under his right armpit?

I will be very surprised if we ever hear from her again, DD!

[diamond d]

I will be very surprised if we ever hear from her again, DD!

I have a feeling your right about that o else she will reply with some smart ass all offended that we question her comment...

[Auntie Venom]

I have never understood the phenomenon of serial killer groupies. Like the women with the long hair and hoop earrings at Ted Bundy's trial...pathetic.
There was a very enlightening special on E about people who marry those behind bars, or fall in love with them. I'll never understand it.
I don't think that that woman was Doreen Lioy anymore than I believe that "polly ramirez" was serious. I think they're both trolls...in more way than one!

[2L8 4A D8]

I have never understood the phenomenon of serial killer groupies. Like the women with the long hair and hoop earrings at Ted Bundy's trial...pathetic.
There was a very enlightening special on E about people who marry those behind bars, or fall in love with them. I'll never understand it.
I don't think that that woman was Doreen Lioy anymore than I believe that "polly ramirez" was serious. I think they're both trolls...in more way than one!

I agree AV! I also call them "One Hit Wonders!" They have maybe one or two posts and are never heard from again! All they want to do is bait, incite and inflame Posters.

JMO and MOO!!

[Auntie Venom]

2L8, I think you're right. I've been offline a couple days and I noticed that neither has picked up the thread again.

[diamond d]

what cracks me up is that does the person think that after we read their post the whole board will be like OMG his wife was here, he is really a great guy, blah blah blah, lol i dunno, just funny. Why not come here and post your opinion honestly, if you really think and believe Ramirez is a fabulous guy, a pillar of our community, hey, say so, post it and get ready for the reaction. But at least you'll be more respected for doing that than making a fake account and posting some BS.

[glennmcmellon]

after what he put those people through he should have frazzled years ago.being in england and not having a death penalty ourselves i cant understand why its taken nearly 20 years to do the right and decent thing and relieve us from this monster

[abigailjazz]

Shes the real Mrs. Ramirez! Ive been on message boards for 6 years dealing with Ramirez. Doreen is thick skinned and posts logically. personally, weve talked a litle here and there. Im sure you remember GUIDO right Doreen? I have a couple of letters from RR.

Anyhow, my writing sks days are over! Got too dark to continue. Didnt feel i was doing the morally correct thing by befreinding killers.

Doreen, who do you think guido actually was?

[diamond d]

HaHaHa, cracks me up I tell ya...

[doreenramirez55]

Abigailjazz, thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I miss the good old days--Guido was far from a worthy opponent, but he was always good for a chuckle when his veins started protruding! I'm approximately 98% sure who he was, but I wouldn't want to say for the record. Take care, ok?

[abigailjazz]

Abigailjazz, thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I miss the good old days--Guido was far from a worthy opponent, but he was always good for a chuckle when his veins started protruding! I'm approximately 98% sure who he was, but I wouldn't want to say for the record. Take care, ok?

OK, doreen! People just speculated that guido was a work of fiction, yet i believe he really was a family member.

i sware tho, all these years i cant believe how you put up with these vicious groupies! I assume dozens of woman fall in love with our hubby each year---month lol...now you have bad-tracy on the forums lol...it never ends! polly ramirez, betty ramirez...it goes on and on.

yep, the good old days, when skc was fun and full of crazy people! Ah, memories. enjoy your day DR!

anyone intersted in what were talking about can type in serial killer central on google. they have a forum and many ppl on there write sks...i did for awhile but it felt morally wrong for me. check it out tho...good convo about true crime etc.

[abigailjazz]

BTW--if you folks go to the forum at serial killer central you will find a certain "glamourzation" of serial killers. youll find richard groupies, manson followers and etc. i tel ya, its a trip! you may get upset!

im not certain this is the link but maybe---

http://www.skcentral.com

[doreenramirez55]

Hey, Abigailjazz! I see I'm not the only one wide awake at the moment!

Yes, I agree--definitely a family member. And if it's the one I had it narrowed down to, Guido had no room to talk. SKC was a lot of fun in those days--such a varied and lively bunch. As for the women, it did get ugly when it needn't have.

I completely understand your need to cease correspondence. You have to do what feels right for you, and I commend you for still being interested in conversing with anyone in this kind of forum. You should drop into SKC-- you might be amused!

Take care!

[star1974]

doreen, is it true that richard is suffering from emphesima and lung cancer? also, i am curious about when you met him. i know you were married in 1996, but how long before that did you meet richard? i have read the 'night stalker', and watched 'biography' which was on A&E, i watched it on youtube.com and also have done some research online about richard. i have to admit, something draws me toward him. he's a very handsome man, i don't care what anyone else says.

[doreenramirez55]

Thanks for the opportunity to again refute the lie that Richard is suffering from emphysema or lung cancer. Absolutely untrue. That information can be traced to a sergeant at San Quentin who also told a reporter he never sees me there anymore, implying Richard and I are no longer together. Just because he, personally, may not have seen me for a long time doesn't mean I stopped visiting. There are plenty of other officers who see me at visiting every single week.

[star1974]

thank you for replying, and i'm glad to hear all is well. :)

[tinakaye]

I was reading this on Ramirez on this forum at this link: http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-107800.html

Pretty interesting, the things I read there.

But here's my question; If Ramirez has confessed to these murders, which from all that I have read and seen on TV, he has confessed and even told details in some cases, then how could his wife believe he is innocent? I do not want to disrespect anyone, Richard or Doreen, but this is something I was wondering about.

I might add, that his so called 'groupies' have to realize he is a married man. Whe do they even bother? He is devoted to his wife, if he wasn't he wouldn't have married her. I wouldn't like other women writing and lusting after MY husband.

[doreenramirez55]

Richard has never confessed. There are so many websites out there, each one trying to outdo the other for shock value, so please do not believe everything you read on the internet. Thank you for asking so respectfully.

[star1974]

Richard Ramirez is definitely the ugliest serial killer who ever lived--a publisher of a Hispanic Newspaper in California stated that he should be executed just on the fact that he was too ugly to live---Ramirez right now is suffering from emphysema and lung cancer and doesn't have long to live as per SQV who is a poster on another board who visits her brother on Death Row frequently--Ramirez is struggling to breathe as we speak and thank God for that--I believe he also had most of his teeth torn out many years go in prison because,with his abnormal fear of dentists, he had just let his teeth rot away--During his infamous murders,Ramirez was in constant pain from his rotten smelly teeth--hopefully this rabid dog killer will soon drop dead and that now appears to be happening


well, you're entitled to your opinion, but let me just say this; whether or not he is guilty of these crimes, only he knows, but he is still a human being, and he still needs to feel loved. i would not wish harm upon him, or anyone else. especially something like cancer. remember; God loves richard just as much as He loves any of us, like it or not.

[star1974]

As if your his wife ... if you are answer this question, what does Richard have under his right armpit?

ok, i have to ask for the sake of curiousity, what DOES richard have under his right armpit?

[doreenramirez55]

After I finished laughing at THAT one, I asked Richard if he DID have something under his right armpit that I didn't know about, and after HE finished laughing, he said that was the most ridiculous thing he'd ever heard.

[star1974]

lol, ok thanks doreen, i just had to ask.

[nbatch20]

It has nothing to do with "out doing" anyone. It has to do with being a website that posts the correct information. My website it not a groupie site nor a shrine. I see Richard as two people. Richard the person and Richard the nightstalker. We can't really say what would have happened or how Richard would be if he was not in prision. He is not on the drugs that he was on 20 years ago. I have given Doreen and Richard both the chance to tell there sides on my website and instead of talking about me they just stoped writing me.

www.richardramirez.net

Nick

[star1974]

It has nothing to do with "out doing" anyone. It has to do with being a website that posts the correct information. My website it not a groupie site nor a shrine. I see Richard as two people. Richard the person and Richard the nightstalker. We can't really say what would have happened or how Richard would be if he was not in prision. He is not on the drugs that he was on 20 years ago. I have given Doreen and Richard both the chance to tell there sides on my website and instead of talking about me they just stoped writing me.

www.richardramirez.net

Nick



nick your site is a very good one! i wish doreen would come to it.

[nbatch20]

THANKS!! Richard stoped writing me about a year ago so did Doreen. If was something wrong with my site that they would have liked me to change or add all they would have had to do is ask. But instead they ignored me.

[AmyW]

Just ignored you, eh? :rolleyes:

I wonder why they just stopped out of the blue? Doreen seems really chatty on this forum. :tongue:

[nbatch20]

Just ignored you, eh? :rolleyes:

I wonder why they just stopped out of the blue? Doreen seems really chatty on this forum. :tongue:

I have no idea put yet they STILL don't say anything. If there was something that I did or said would be a lot better to just say it.:punch:

[doreenramirez55]

No, Richard's "time" is not coming soon, and no, he is not writing a book of any kind.

[sallynuts]

What???????

You make absolutely no sense to me... who cares what this man wants... after what he did, he should rot in hell...how do you come to this ??:confused:

He should get exactly the same choice as he gave his victims... which was.. no choice at all

[allan]

I have never understood the phenomenon of serial killer groupies. Like the women with the long hair and hoop earrings at Ted Bundy's trial...pathetic.
There was a very enlightening special on E about people who marry those behind bars, or fall in love with them. I'll never understand it.
I don't think that that woman was Doreen Lioy anymore than I believe that "polly ramirez" was serious. I think they're both trolls...in more way than one!

They all want there 15 minutes of fame

[allan]

What???????

You make absolutely no sense to me... who cares what this man wants... after what he did, he should rot in hell...how do you come to this ??:confused:

He should get exactly the same choice as he gave his victims... which was.. no choice at all

i hope you don't mind me being on here as i'm english, but i did see a lot of this guys court apperances, after the things he has done i believe he's lost the right to life, and the quicker he's disposed of the better

[sharlock]

I disagree with you. There are a manny of people that feel the way you do therefore, I am not surprised to see one more.

Richard has made mistakes in the past, but he has served his time. He has had his life taken from him for at least 21 years now. This averages a little over a year for each one of the murders.

What I do not understand is the criminal minds of everyone else. To wish death is in my opinion just as criminal as the ones that actually committed a crime.

Murder is murder, it does not matter who pulls the trigger, shoots sticks the needle in the are, are who fills the syringes. They are all crimes! Aiding the crime is just as bad, if not worse.

This is not my forum and you have the right to post heare as much as anyone unless the administrator decides other wise. Keep posting, it is good to hear others opinions.


I'm sorry but being from Australia (we have no death penalty ) my view is that a person who inflicts sooooo much pain on not only his victims but his victims families; he gave up his rights when he decided that he had the right to deprive others of theirs. I don't agree with the death penalty because when it comes down to it with all the appeals it costs more to keep a serial killer till he is killed then it does to provide for a lifer and I guess I don't want to be a killer myself; but I definately think he deserves no conjugal rights he deserves no respect and while some people can find it in themselves to want to be attached to such a vile creature it does not change what they are and that is a person who thought so little of others that they could torture degrade and kill another human being believing that was their right. It was not his right and he did not get sentenced for being an innocent party although I am aware that this can happen. This man did these horrific things and of that there is no doubt!!!!! What is wrong with you people wouldn't your time be better spent trying to help those children deprived of their mothers than worrying about a person who never thought of anyone but themself when it most mattered???:shrug:
Sharlock

RIP to all the victims who deserved better than what they got:rose: :rose:

PS Hail Satan????? I could think of better things to do with my time!!

[sharlock]

sharlock, I respect what it is you are saying and I agree with most. However, there are so many murderers and one is no better than the other.
If one gets life, then they all should.

Rape, robbery, and murder in the end show that something was taken and in no one will get back every thing they was robbed of.

Look at the all of the murders that got life, 20 years, 15 years, etc. why? Is it because they plead guilty? Is it because they were not a follower of a different religeon?

Richard should not have been condemed for his belief. We may not agree with it, but it was something he truly believed in. Was he being punished in part because of this?

In my opinion, there are far more despicable people that have committed murder, sent to prison, and released after serving a short time that I would be more concerned of as opposed to if Richard were to be released.

Richard could believe whole heartedly in the tooth fairy and I couldn't care less. You are right though if someone takes a life and it is not in self defense THEY SHOULD ALL GET LIFE just what they took.
Sharlock

[sharlock]

sharlock, What about the circumstances surrounding the people the murder?

Some people kill just because they want recognition of some sort.
Some kill because of being brain washed.
Some kill because of their up-brininging.
Some kill because they are so high on drugs.
Some kill because they are threatened.

There are so many dufferent reasons why people kill. People thing that the killing spree will stop if people were to get death row, but what this has taught some people, is that if they plead guilty to the crime, then they can get life.

There are so many people on death row because they did not commit to the crime in which they were charged, so they get death, but if they plead guilty to a crime they did not commit, then they get death. What happens to those that plead guilty to escape the death penalty?

They plead innocent because they can't understand what evidence the prosecutors have that would convict them. I do not feel evidence alone any more is what convicts most.

Most are so blind to the fact of the possible innocense in someone, they convict and leave it up to the defense to prove the person innocent with proff to help set a person free after conviction.

How many people have had to give their life up for 10 years or more because of lies, fabrication, no proof, no motive, and sometimes nothing at all.

Then you have people that move to a different state to kill so they can avoid the death penalty, olead guilty, and then get life with the possiblity of parole.

Richard Ramirez wanted to plead guilty, but with the advice of his attorney telling him he could win his case is why he went to trial. Do some of the defense attorneys help in the framing of their client? Can it be proven?

Richard was not brought up the way most would like to be. He don't blame anyone for what he did, but is it because he is in denial?

Did you ever have anyone shot to death just a few feet away from you? Did you have a dad beat you as opposed to spanking you? Was you able to just drop out of school at the age of 15 without an adult to try and talk you out of it?
These are just a few of the things that Richard has went through. Do you not feel one ounce of compassion for him for having been raised the way he was?
Before I reply I just want to clarify something I said earlier.my society doesn't condone capital punishment so life IS the toughest sentence you can get here, my argument for life is just that life behind bars.


Sure I can empathise for any CHILD put through a less than kind upbringing and can even relate somewhat but I do not excuse an adults actions because of it. I realise your circumstances influence your decisions as an adult that is why we need to do more to help these CHILDREN but if they are now an adult and have already made thier choices than they must also live with the consequences of the decisions they made. Do you delve into the background of the victims to see what trials and tribulations they are overcoming, do they not deserve thier lives and because he was abused does that mean he had a if not a right than a reason to take thiers??? He is not in jail for killing the person who abused him, that I could understand and even sometimes put under the heading of selfdefense he hunted and tortured then killed complete strangers.
Of course there are exceptions to every rule I mean if you were to tell me he had the mental capacity of a 4yr old that would make a difference but You are the one who is using to broader brushstroke when you try to paint Richard as the victim.:rolleyes:
Sharlock

[sharlock]

sharlock, good post!
I use Richard as an example because there are very few that I feel deserve some compassion.

I believe in life without parole. I just get angry when you have someone that committed murder get a 15 year sentence, another get 20 years, and another egt life or death.


I have studied a great deal of different crimes over the years. Depending on the person I talk about, depends on the last person I read about.

I just recently read and watched about Richard is the reason why he is the main subject right now.
A&E just the other night. There were things that conincided with what I read.
There have been so many things that have read that are untrue and I do not feel this is right. However, the first ammendmant allows this, so this is why I feel if a person is going to criticise another person, I feel they should have the facts before doing so.

The upbringing of a child has a lot to do with the outcome of a person in their adult life or society plays a huge part in it.

I am not saying the crime is right and because one person or another played a part in the crime, the person should not be punished.

A child that has been molested by her father allows the molestation because he is her father. She is taught from birth she is to obey her father, she has learned from other people that has been abused it is something that is hard to prove, and she is ashamed of what has happened to her.

You have a woman raped, she goes to the police, but rape is a hard crime to prosecute in most cases. She is left with not being raped once, but twice.
You have others that are raped and they don't report it because they were told that if they did, they would come back and kill them. This is the fear women are dealing with in their own way, but not understanding why it happened. If they go to the police, will something be done?
You have no idea what people thing of crimes that have been committed to them and if they reported it or if they didn't because either situation brings them more harm.

A person that is phisically abused as a child is the same in a lot of ways. Will they believe me? Will my parents tell them I am lying? Will they believe my parents over me? If they believe my parents over me then I know I will get another beating.

Kids are powerless and they are taught this from birth. It continues through out their adult life.

So this is not just about Richard. This is about power and money. This is about society labeling people because of a back ground they know nothing about the person they are labeling.

I never wanted my kids growing up and learning this, but they did. No matter what I did to prevent them from watching this or reading that, there has always been one or more other child that has read or watched what I taught my kids not to. It is a natural thing for most kids to talk about these things in school.

This is how a lot of the murderous sprees take place. Society has to change, the laws have to change, the laws have to be upheld, etc. and until they do, there are going to be more misguided people.

I started off posting believing you and I held different view points and in some small ways we do but I can now see that we also have a lot in common in the way we feel about the injustices when it comes to rape paedophilia and child abuse. It saddens me when an adult does an inexcusably vile crime because of the way they were raised and I find myself wishing they could have been helped when it would have mattered. One of my firm beliefs is that we should all feel responsible for the safety of children whether they are ours or not and that neighbours and friends have a responsibility to those in need. Noone should ignore this because they don't want to get involved, that is an offense as bad as the most heinous crimes. Still I never want Richard to walk as a free man because unfortunately once the damage is done and the murderous beast takes a hold there is little if no hope of rehabilitation and we need to then do damage control and try to ensure no more innocent victims are hurt and leave thier children to grow up scarred irrepairably as well!:shrug:
Sharlock

[sharlock]

sharlock, I feel so sorry for all of the people that lost loved ones by Richard, Ted B., Dahmer, etc. I don't feel he needs to walk out either.

I pray the death penalty does come to an end though. The hope for people as an adult is hard, but it is the children growing up with all of the vilonce that scares me.

There was another murder spree at a campus at Varginia Tech. They don't have all of the details yet, but as of right now they wonder what took so long for all of the campus to even know there was a shooting going on.

It is my undestanding that a lot of people could have been saved.

How many people kill with rage built up in them since they were young children? I truly di feel that a lot of them go after the ones or the ones they feel had a better life than what they did.

Good to know we want the same thing!

I was just watching the news about the shootings and they have now started to bring out writings from his English class with plays about a family that involves paedophilia, abuse and murder. Probably very telling but in any case such a monumental tragedy.:rose:

[sallynuts]

sharlock, What about the circumstances surrounding the people the murder?

Some people kill just because they want recognition of some sort.
Some kill because of being brain washed.
Some kill because of their up-brininging.
Some kill because they are so high on drugs.
Some kill because they are threatened.

There are so many dufferent reasons why people kill. People thing that the killing spree will stop if people were to get death row, but what this has taught some people, is that if they plead guilty to the crime, then they can get life.

There are so many people on death row because they did not commit to the crime in which they were charged, so they get death, but if they plead guilty to a crime they did not commit, then they get death. What happens to those that plead guilty to escape the death penalty?

They plead innocent because they can't understand what evidence the prosecutors have that would convict them. I do not feel evidence alone any more is what convicts most.

Most are so blind to the fact of the possible innocense in someone, they convict and leave it up to the defense to prove the person innocent with proff to help set a person free after conviction.

How many people have had to give their life up for 10 years or more because of lies, fabrication, no proof, no motive, and sometimes nothing at all.

Then you have people that move to a different state to kill so they can avoid the death penalty, olead guilty, and then get life with the possiblity of parole.

Richard Ramirez wanted to plead guilty, but with the advice of his attorney telling him he could win his case is why he went to trial. Do some of the defense attorneys help in the framing of their client? Can it be proven?

Richard was not brought up the way most would like to be. He don't blame anyone for what he did, but is it because he is in denial?

Did you ever have anyone shot to death just a few feet away from you? Did you have a dad beat you as opposed to spanking you? Was you able to just drop out of school at the age of 15 without an adult to try and talk you out of it?
These are just a few of the things that Richard has went through. Do you not feel one ounce of compassion for him for having been raised the way he was?

Nonsense!! He still new right from wrong.. he's not got some mental illness that takes away his ability to make choices. And that's what he did, he chose to kill those people, he didn't have too, he wanted to., why make excuses for him. He is what he is, a psychopath. And you have been fooled by him.

[sharlock]

Nonsense!! He still new right from wrong.. he's not got some mental illness that takes away his ability to make choices. And that's what he did, he chose to kill those people, he didn't have too, he wanted to., why make excuses for him. He is what he is, a psychopath. And you have been fooled by him.

He is definately one sick puppy! I cannot fathom why someone would marry him claiming to believe him to be innocent. I wonder if it is something that has to be said during an appelate process? Although if you allowed yourself to admit what this man did how could you justify marrying him? I think I might try and read up on women who marry killers because it just blows my mind.
Sharlock

[sharlock]

I am not defending what he did. I am defeniding what I think and feel about Richard.

I think the death oenalty is wrong, I think it is over populated, I feel it is no longer taken into consideration, I feel the jurors that hand down death, feel a sense of power, etc.

He has served his time for his crime.
I feel Richard is an honest enough person, that if he were asked if he were to be released into society, would he kill again? He would answer it. If he does think he will kill, then he would tell them just to give him life.

He is human and has made mistakes in the past, but he should be forgiven of these mistakes. He may not have been in total control of who he was back then for more than just one reason and he deserves to be heard and understood.

It is not for me to forgive Richard for what he did but I will say that if I was a parent of one of those girls who was raped and tortured to death I do not know if I could ever find it in my heart to forgive him for depriving me of my child, my loved one. He didn't forget to pay his taxes or hold up a convenience store he killed many innocent people who had a right to live thier lives and enrich others peoples lives, they had a right to suceed or fail they had a right to love and have children. These are the people who no longer have a voice and what has been taken from them is irrevocable and final. They will no longer laugh and they will no longer cry; how can you say he has done his time? How has he made up for the many lives he took? Perhaps he now regrets these vile and evil things he did but perhaps not; either way he should never be released from jail, he took life the most precious gift of all and now he should serve life.
It is no comparison though, he still has a life behind bars, he still has friends and enemies and even has had the chance to marry. His victims will never have that chance and for what? Look deep inside yourself and feel real empathy- not for Richard but for the grief of those who lost the people most important to them and who can never never forget how their loved one died crying, terrified and frightened begging for mercy and praying to god that their Daddy would save them. Do you get that? Can you feel that fear that you haven't experienced since you were a child that grips you so overwhelmingly that your heart seizes and you cannot catch your breath for the sobs, knowing that a monster is really in your closet and he is not going to give you mercy, he is not going to spare you and that your last moments on this earth are so shocking and brutal that you welcome death.
I tell you one person who cannot empathise for others but only himself, that is the reason he could stare chillingly into these desperate terrified eyes of someones child and kill them. Not everyone can do that- perhaps we are all capabe of killing someone in our own defense or more likely the defense of our child but it takes a special kind of psychopathical serial killer to do what he did. That makes him someone that I pray your child as I do my own never has the misfortune to come by. It also makes him a person that is capable of lying and telling you anyting he wants if it will serve his best interests and you trust that! If you must insist on looking into Richards eyes and seeing the broken little boy he must have been than do not forget to look into his eyes and see the sadistic murderer that boy became! For my own part though I choose to remember and honour his victims, may they RIP:rose:
Sharlock

[sharlock]

Discussing Richard's crimes is not what I am doing.

What exactly are you doing then Sassie? How can you say that Richard has served his time and should be allowed free and reference to other killers who have had shorter sentences as if this is some proof that he should only have had a short sentence as well, yet state that you do not consider his crimes when making these decisions. It appears(and please correct me if I am wrong because I do not wish to put words in your mouth and the purpose of this post is not to pick your argument apart but to clarify your position and how you are able to take such a stance) that you only take into consideration the fact that Richard was abused as a child and had used drugs and seem to believe that placed him in a position where he was unable then to make better choices as an adult.
That is simply not true we all have choices no matter how difficult our life has been and many people have faced the equivalent of the abuse Richard was subjected to and also the drug abuse, however these people are not serial killers who show no mercy. I said earlier that while I will always feel empathy for any child that was subjected to abuse but I think I then made it very clear that as an adult we are all responsible for the decisions we make and Richard Ramirez is accountable for his. I do not think the law stipulates at any point that all men are equal, I know that Richard is not equal to the innocent people he torture sodomized and murdered.


Some people that have been abused as a child don't have the chance at being a better adult and some do. I feel sorry for the one's that do not have the chance.


So do I!!!The NS victims did not have the chance 2 be a better adult or child and they were not given the chance to improve themselves as adults or his children victims never even got the chance 2 grow up except for those few who were tortured and molested and this was the legacy that Richard the misunderstood and unfairly judged inmate gave them to carry into their adult lives.
I have lived this kind of life and which is why it is easier for me to understand it better. Others have lived an abusive life, but they take their hate for their abuser and their hate for them is vented on others.

Sassie I believe you are a good person who is sincere in the messages you try to convey but unfortunatley those messages are mixed signals and it is impossible for someone to see where you truly stand on many of the points you make as they have varied from post to post. One thing that has been consisent is this quote

I am not defending what he did. I am defeniding what I think and feel about Richard.


in its many variations. I would like to understand how you came to the conclusion that Richard was not as bad as other serial killers, what was it that made you think and feel that others were wrong in there opinions including the facts of his crimes but you are not? Please don't think I'm trying to demean you in any way I enjoy posting with you but I do have very strong feelings in regards to serial killers and your opinions leave me feeling confused. IMO it is biased to look at Richard and discuss the validity of his jail sentence even going so far as to say that he has served his time and is a good man who should be realeased because there are other murderers that YOU believe have committed worse crimes who have not had as long sentences. How do you verify your oppinion of Richards personality?
Please tell me anything that has been expressed as a fact that you can show to be untrue> Do you know Richard or have you had discussions with him that you base your good character reference on? If so I would be interested to hear the details.

If you really want to write a story on Richard that will be credible you have to adjust your approach; in that you first have to understand the psyche of a pathological liar and then you need to research what type
of person is capable of the crimes Richard commited. Only after being fully aware of what he is capable of saying and doing can you be in a position where you can make a decision about whether he is reformed or not.
You absolutely cannot ignore his criminal status along with the murders he committed and say that you are using non-biased approach.


Richard should not have been condemed for his belief. We may not agree with it, but it was something he truly believed in. Was he being punished in part because of this?


This argument has no basis in reality as Richard was in fact convicted on his crimes which were more than sufficient for the penalty he received by law, nothing would have changed even if his religious preference had never been brought up!

In my opinion, there are far more despicable people that have committed murder, sent to prison, and released after serving a short time that I would be more concerned of as opposed to if Richard were to be released.
[/quote]

Yeah I mean why would you be concerned about a man who killed his victims without remorse or guilt and who had no real preference in age or sex as long as he was able to enjoy the act!? Sorry I forgot you do not take Richards crimes into consideration when you post! My mistake.:rolleyes:

He has served his time for his crime.
I feel Richard is an honest enough person, that if he were asked if he were to be released into society, would he kill again? He would answer it. If he does think he will kill, then he would tell them just to give him life.


:punch: OF COURSE HE WOULD NEVER LIE. THESE ARE THE QUOTES OF A MAN WHO IN YOUR OPPINION CAN BE RELIED ON WHEN IT COMES TO HIS WORD SO I SUGGEST YOU READ VERY CAREFULLY!

Quotes“It's nothing you'd understand, but I do have something to say. In fact, I have a lot to say, but now is not the time or place. I don't know why I'm wasting my time or breath. But what the hell? As for what is said of my life, there have been lies in the past and there will be lies in the future. I don't believe in the hypocritical, moralistic dogma of this so-called civilized society. I need not look beyond this room to see all the liars, haters, the killers, the crooks, the paranoid cowards--truly trematodes of the Earth, each one in his own legal profession. You maggots make me sick-- hypocrites one and all. And no one knows that better than those who kill for policy, clandestinely or openly, as do the governments of the world, which kill in the name of God and country or for whatever reason the deem appropriate. I don't need to hear all of society's rationalizations, I've heard them all before and the fact remains that what is, is. You don't understand me. You are not expected to. You are not capable of it. I am beyond your experience. I am beyond good and evil, Legions of the night--night breed--repeat not the errors of the Night Prowler and show no mercy. I will be avenged. Lucifer dwells within us all. That's it.„
—Richard Ramirez's statement before he received sentencing at his trial.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ramirez#_note-1)
"I love to kill people. I love to watch them die. I would shoot them in the head and they would wiggle and squirm all over the place, and then just stop. Or I would cut them with a knife and watch their faces turn real white. I love all that blood."

"Even psychopaths have emotions. Then again, maybe not."

"No big deal death always comes with the territory I'll see you in Disneyland"

"you maggots make me sick, i will be avenged. lucifer dwells within us all."

"we've all got the power in our hands to kill, but most people are afraid to use it. the ones who aren't afraid control life itself."
All quotes by Richard Ramirez

Sharlock

[One2Snoop]

Sassie you're certainly entitled to your opinion but I have to admit after reading this you really, really scare me, because this is just not right. RR raped, tortured and killed many women just like you and me. Honestly in your heart, (no offense) but how can you even think this is ok? Abused or not, this is not ok. :confused: RR has to pay for his crime/s.
Please try putting yourself in the victims shoes. I think you need to show just as much compassion for the families who've lost loved ones in his hands as you do for him. I think (I hope) once you can bring yourself to do that you might think differently. IMO, JMO

O2S

Sharlock, if Richard did to my family or friends, I do not know if I could ever forgive him either, but I don't look at his crimes when making my post.

We all have opinions and I can certainly give my opinion on what I feel about what he did or I can give my opinion on what I feel about right and wrong.

There are two different opinions. My personal opinion of Richard or any other serial killer, is they need to be treated the same. I feel life is better than death. Two wrongs, don't make a right.

Discussing Richard's crimes is not what I am doing.

If you are a reporter and you are to write a story on Richard or any other serial killer or a one time murderer, are you going to get facts about the person you are writing about? Or are you going to write about the truth as you know it? You can't be bias, you have got to be fair and put your personal feeling aside. This is not an easy thing to do, but if you put yourself as being the person you are writing about, then you know there is more about you then what others are saying.

I am no writer, but I have always wanted to be and I guess this is why I am able to do this. You also have to believe everyone is an equal. This is a mandated law.

Try to understand the crime, that was committed. Then try and understand behind the scenes of what led up to the killings.

Society, plays a big part in the outcome of a lot of people. I have never in all of my life do drugs, but I hear they are mind controllers. If Richard did not do these drugs, would he have killed? If he had a better upbringing, would he have done drugs? If he was taught differently, would he have quit school in the fifth grade?

Some people that have been abused as a child don't have the chance at being a better adult and some do. I feel sorry for the one's that do not have the chance.

I have lived this kind of life and which is why it is easier for me to understand it better. Others have lived an abusive life, but they take their hate for their abuser and their hate for them is vented on others.

[sharlock]

Sharlock, I have some mixed feelings myself about everything.

The things Richard said at trial or just before he was taken off was not the best way to get one's attention.

The jurors were not wrong in their decision. "you don't understand me" I think he was wanting someone to understand that what he did was wrong, but that he was also in need of help. I feel he was reaching out for help from someone he thought might have the power to help him.

I do not think he thought they should find him innocent. I think he had hoped for life without parole. He wanted to plead guilty to these crimes and settle for life without parole, but his attorney's told him not to.

Showing the symbol on the palm of his hand, was not him being a smart azz and acting as though he did not care. It was his way of expressing his feelings in anger so as not to shed tears. It would not have done him any good to cry and he felt this would have been giving them what they wanted.

I do not know Richard, but I have read a book about his life and in the book are interviews. These interviews mention some of what I wrote and this is how I draw my conclusions on him.

Other ways I draw my conclusions is because of his past. His father abused him and from my understanding, he beat the total crap out of him. Where was his mother during all of this? Was she herself abused? Was she herself afraid of something worse happening? Again, this is why I feel he said you don't understand me.

I do not want to write a story on Richard or anyone else. I would not even know what to write. He and all others have already went to trial for their crimes, therefore there is nothing to tell in a story and because I would want truth. Most of what I would write has already been written.

I explained my posting on Richard a few post back. I had just recently saw a program about him and which is why he was so fresh in my mind.
I could have posted about Jeffery Dahmer, but he is already dead. Which this is just another reason I am writing about Richard. He is not yet dead and my goal is to try and stop the death penalty.

Also, if one murder is set free because he is a changed man and he has served the time for his crime, then I fel Richard and everyone else in his position should also be allowed the same.

I watched another man last night get twenty five years for murder. This tells me he has the chance in twenty years or maybe even less time before he goes free.

What about the laws? The rights? All men are treated equal for their crime no matter what each persons crime is. When I say equal, if one man is going to conjugal visits, then it is only fair the one next to him get them also. Men in one prison get to get out and have a large open area, where the ones on death row are caged if they go out. The list goes on.

What are they teaching these people? Scott Peterson has probably never learned of this sort of treatment and perhaps it might be a good thing that he does know what it is like to be treated this way, but Richard has been treated this way all of his life and he is taught that no matter where he rest his head, there is no such thing as freedom.

The world should be a better place than what it is. Richard nor any other serial killer or just a one time killer and all of the other crime committers may not have contributed to this, but some don't even know how and the others took life for granted.

I guess the one thing this has all taught me is, that the world is getting closer to an end. God said, the more violence and destruction in the world, the closer the time he will judge.

Sassie I think I might have figured out where you are coming from; it seems to me that you are highly sensitive and empathetic person and that is why you seem to swing wildly from defending Richard when you are thinking about him as being an abused child now facing the death penalty but when forced to relate to his victims you seem to change your perspective. I think Richard is probably not the best person to use when trying to have the death penalty changed. I still cannot quite understand this thing about all men being treated equal. There are varying depths to depravity and evilness these murderers stoop to and I think that should be reflected in thier punishments and sentences. There are many varying degrees to murder and the worse it is the more books you will find on that individual.

[sharlock]

Sharlock, I have some mixed feelings myself about everything.

The things Richard said at trial or just before he was taken off was not the best way to get one's attention.

The jurors were not wrong in their decision. "you don't understand me" I think he was wanting someone to understand that what he did was wrong, but that he was also in need of help. I feel he was reaching out for help from someone he thought might have the power to help him.

I do not think he thought they should find him innocent. I think he had hoped for life without parole. He wanted to plead guilty to these crimes and settle for life without parole, but his attorney's told him not to.

Showing the symbol on the palm of his hand, was not him being a smart azz and acting as though he did not care. It was his way of expressing his feelings in anger so as not to shed tears. It would not have done him any good to cry and he felt this would have been giving them what they wanted.

I do not know Richard, but I have read a book about his life and in the book are interviews. These interviews mention some of what I wrote and this is how I draw my conclusions on him.

Other ways I draw my conclusions is because of his past. His father abused him and from my understanding, he beat the total crap out of him. Where was his mother during all of this? Was she herself abused? Was she herself afraid of something worse happening? Again, this is why I feel he said you don't understand me.

I do not want to write a story on Richard or anyone else. I would not even know what to write. He and all others have already went to trial for their crimes, therefore there is nothing to tell in a story and because I would want truth. Most of what I would write has already been written.

I explained my posting on Richard a few post back. I had just recently saw a program about him and which is why he was so fresh in my mind.
I could have posted about Jeffery Dahmer, but he is already dead. Which this is just another reason I am writing about Richard. He is not yet dead and my goal is to try and stop the death penalty.

Also, if one murder is set free because he is a changed man and he has served the time for his crime, then I fel Richard and everyone else in his position should also be allowed the same.

I watched another man last night get twenty five years for murder. This tells me he has the chance in twenty years or maybe even less time before he goes free.

What about the laws? The rights? All men are treated equal for their crime no matter what each persons crime is. When I say equal, if one man is going to conjugal visits, then it is only fair the one next to him get them also. Men in one prison get to get out and have a large open area, where the ones on death row are caged if they go out. The list goes on.

What are they teaching these people? Scott Peterson has probably never learned of this sort of treatment and perhaps it might be a good thing that he does know what it is like to be treated this way, but Richard has been treated this way all of his life and he is taught that no matter where he rest his head, there is no such thing as freedom.

The world should be a better place than what it is. Richard nor any other serial killer or just a one time killer and all of the other crime committers may not have contributed to this, but some don't even know how and the others took life for granted.

I guess the one thing this has all taught me is, that the world is getting closer to an end. God said, the more violence and destruction in the world, the closer the time he will judge.


Could someone tell me what the symbol was he showed on his palm, I hadn't beeen aware that he had done that.
Sharlock

[sharlock]

Could someone tell me what the symbol was he showed on his palm, I hadn't beeen aware that he had done that.
Sharlock

I just found a link to a site that has a very good account of Richard Ramirez crimes and describes the pentagram he had on his palm when shouting Hail Satan... Here is the link for anyone who is interested.

http://judey.dasmirnov.net/richard_ramirez.htm

Sharlock

[sharlock]

I don't like to think of the victims because I don't like seeing what they went through.

I have compared them with another experience and I do that I have told myself time and again, that I would never forgive this person. Then I can understand why they would never forgive him or any of the other victims forgive someone.

Sharlock, you are right! I have looked at the abusive part of his life, but I don't know anyone else on death row, but Scott and his case is still a long way from the needle.

I don't watch a whole lot of trials to even know who else is on death row and half of the people talked about, I have never even heard of.

I guess I will take Richard out of this and write of no death penalty.

I can relate to his abuse is another reason why I felt this way. However, I am not going to murder anyone.

Yes, I am very sympathetic towards these people. I know what they went through.So, I will put it this way.

Fact, Richard did kill these people, but what if there was someone other than Scott because he is in serious questioning, but everyone in the world knows another person was railroaded because of coinincidence and because one's history is taken into consideration. This is why I want there to be no death penalty.

Then would people be willing to try and stop the death penalty more?

In regards to the death penalty you could consider looking at inncoent people who have been sentenced to the death penalty to make your point. There are a number of people who fall into this category and while I am not saying these people were definately innocent once the sentence is imposed there is no way to bring them back to life if it is found there was an error in judgement. If they do kill an innocent person with the death penalty then it means that they are in fact guilty of murder, wouldn't that make them able to be sentenced to death themselves. This is only one aspect of the dangers and contradictions when it comes to the death penalty, here are a few names for you to research if you do want to look into it further:
Ronald Jones-dna tests indicate innocence
Williams and Jimerson were sentenced to death convicted of murder-rape in 1978 and were released after the female witness admitted to lying due to police pressure; dna evidence corroborated there innocence then the men who committed the crime actually confessed. Luckily this all came out before they were executed, some are not that lucky.
Robert Cantu was executed for the murder , attempted murder and robbery of 2 men. He was 17 at the time he was supposed to have comitted the offenses and sworn statement by his friend David Garza now show he may not have comitted the crime at all. The case was mainly built on the eye witness of one person. Garza now says he was with someone else when the crime was commited and that Cantu was not even present.
Sharlock

[doreenramirez55]

Where do you get your information? Richard was neither charged with nor convicted of killing any children.

[sharlock]

Where do you get your information? Richard was neither charged with nor convicted of killing any children.


It is not for me to forgive Richard for what he did but I will say that if I was a parent of one of those girls who was raped and tortured to death I do not know if I could ever find it in my heart to forgive him for depriving me of my child, my loved one.


I never said Richard was charged or convicted of killing any children but in fact all of his victims were somebodies child!!!!!

[QUOTE]
(http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/pressure_3.html)http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/pressure_3.html<A href="http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/pressure_3.html">


Killing Dayle Okazaki had not satisfied his need, so on the spur of the moment, he had attacked Tsia-Lian Yu. But murdering and assaulting her might not have done it for him because three days later he murdered an eight-year-old girl in Eagle Rock,

[sharlock]

Thanks sharlock! If you have a site on these people can you let me know. I will try and search on them.

http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/deathpen.html

http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/newab006/dProtess.html

http://standdown.typepad.com/weblog/ruben_cantu/index.html

These should give you a general idea but there are plenty more.
Sharlock

[doreenramirez55]

Sharlock:

You claim you never said Richard was convicted of killing children? Refer back to your 4/26 posts. Among other remarks designed to incite, you said "the NS victims never got the chance to be a better adult or child" and that "his children victims never even got the chance to grow up." You confirmed this stance in your 4/29 post in which you quoted a website's erroneous statement that he killed an eight-year-old girl in Eagle Rock. Untrue. You never said he was convicted of killing children? This is exactly what you are saying.

Your comment about the victims being "someone's child" smacks of being a desperate defense of an incorrect statement of the facts (as YOU see them).

You try further to justify your inaccuracies by quoting sensationalistic websites on which misinformation is continually picked up from one to another. Just because you read it on the Internet doesn't make it true. You seem intelligent enough to recognize that.

The facts of the trial record remain: Richard was not charged with nor convicted of homicides of children.

[sharlock]

Sharlock:

You claim you never said Richard was convicted of killing children? Refer back to your 4/26 posts. Among other remarks designed to incite, you said "the NS victims never got the chance to be a better adult or child" and that "his children victims never even got the chance to grow up." You confirmed this stance in your 4/29 post in which you quoted a website's erroneous statement that he killed an eight-year-old girl in Eagle Rock. Untrue. You never said he was convicted of killing children? This is exactly what you are saying.

Your comment about the victims being "someone's child" smacks of being a desperate defense of an incorrect statement of the facts (as YOU see them).

You try further to justify your inaccuracies by quoting sensationalistic websites on which misinformation is continually picked up from one to another. Just because you read it on the Internet doesn't make it true. You seem intelligent enough to recognize that.

The facts of the trial record remain: Richard was not charged with nor convicted of homicides of children.

Doreen,
Sorry for the delay in my response but things have been quite hectic here at the moment.
It seems to me though that you can only claim that I am lying if I actually said he was charged and convicted which I can assure you I did not. That does not mean however that I believe that he could not have and did not commit crimes against children including murder (and the sensationalist web sites such as Crime Library also apparently believe the same). I can certainly understand how this is the one point you want to take issue with as he wasn't convicted of killing a child but certainly he has been thought responsible for more than one childs death. Of course by child I am now referring to a person under the age of 18 but don't for one minute think that whenever I referred to a persons child I was making that connection because I wasn't. Actually it was in reference to my deep dismay for the loss of a child being a mother myself and by that I mean any child regardless of age.
I am not trying to argue the validity of his trial here though I am open to discussion on any topic you may want to open.
I have a question of you though and that is to ask if you believe that Richard is innocent of the crimes he has been convicted with and if not what do you think occured?
Sharlock

[Livia]

Sassie, I have to ask: If God acted, as you say, to keep Richard alive...where was He when Richard was murdering all those innocent victims?? Didn't they deserve to live even more than Richard--or at least as much??

And Mrs. Richard Ramirez--what about that little boy your husband raped while his mother was tied up in another room, listening in fear and horror to her child's screams of pain and terror? No, he didn't kill that child--very kind of him I must say :(--he just slapped him and told him to shut up!!!!!!!!

Will that child now be justified to become a serial killer like your husband--because of the totally unjustified torture your loving husband inflicted on him?!

And I agree with Sharlock--God only knows how many awful crimes Ramirez committed (against children too) that we'll never know about. He's a monster and he's capable of anything--except, probably, doing any good to anyone.

[Livia]

P.S. I can think of one very good reason why the likes of Ramirez shouldn't be allowed conjugal visits: because we don't need serial killers breeding!!!!!!!!!

[sharlock]

Richard apparently felt that satan was protecting him and that didn't work out to well either!
Sharlock

[Livia]

Richard apparently felt that satan was protecting him and that didn't work out to well either!
Sharlock

LOL--I totally agree! :)

What a shame--"The Devil made me do it and then he let me down!" haha! :lol:

[sharlock]

doreen, I thought of another thing. The jurors did not hear everything in court about Richard. This has always upset me, but one of the jurors said, that had they heard during the trial what they heard after, they would not have given him death. Could this be used to help him get life?

Also, another thing I feel is sad is when Richard went to his brothers across town is when the police learned of who he was. Them thinking he is still in town posted police outside the bus station and was given orders to kill Richrd. This is so wrong of the police for giving this order.

This tells me God played a part in keeping Richard alive.

It is funny and I am not making fun of the police, but I can only imagine the police hoping to be the first person to arrest Richard or to put a bullet in him.
The funny thing is, not a one of them had this chance. The citizens on the streets are the ones that captured Richard and this is what saved his life.

Please show a link that police gave ordrers to kill Richard rather than arrest him? It would be much more likely that all officers were warned that Richard was highly dangerous and his crimes had been escalating to such an extent that anyone approaching him with the intent to arrest could fimd themselves at risk if proper precautions were not taken. If however there was an order to kill then it would be documented and I'd like to know where that was documented.
Doreen if you feel able to contribute to the conversations when you believe someone else has made a mistake then I am curious as to why you don't feel able to reply to the few questions that were asked of you?
Sharlock

[doreenramirez55]

Sharlock, I responded to your posts because in them, you implied Richard was a convicted child killer. I set the record straight on that matter, which was my only intent.
I have said repeatedly and will say again here: It is not incumbent upon me, as Richard's wife, to retry his case for him on Internet message boards. That is what the appellate process is for.
And as for answering questions: Questions are one thing, insults are another. You, Livia and others like you have no compunction about coming to a message board about someone you so clearly hate and hurl insults at me and others who don't share your opinions. If you were I, would you waste your breath fighting a dead-end argument with people whose opinions matter as little to me as mine to them? As I said, my only intent was to clear up the misconception that Richard was convicted of killing children. If I were to cling to my keyboard as rabidly as Richard's "haters" and respond to every insult leveled at me and my husband, I wouldn't have time to do anything else.

[doreenramirez55]

Sassie: You are correct about the issue with the jurors. Several of them said that had they been presented with any mitigating evidence during the penalty phase, they would have been inclined to vote for LWOP (life without parole) as opposed to the death penalty. That is one of Richard's major appellate issues.

[sharlock]

Sharlock, I responded to your posts because in them, you implied Richard was a convicted child killer. I set the record straight on that matter, which was my only intent.
I have said repeatedly and will say again here: It is not incumbent upon me, as Richard's wife, to retry his case for him on Internet message boards. That is what the appellate process is for.
And as for answering questions: Questions are one thing, insults are another. You, Livia and others like you have no compunction about coming to a message board about someone you so clearly hate and hurl insults at me and others who don't share your opinions. If you were I, would you waste your breath fighting a dead-end argument with people whose opinions matter as little to me as mine to them? As I said, my only intent was to clear up the misconception that Richard was convicted of killing children. If I were to cling to my keyboard as rabidly as Richard's "haters" and respond to every insult leveled at me and my husband, I wouldn't have time to do anything else.

Firstly, thankyou Sassie for the info on where to find that stuff about the police orders. When I asked for a link I probably should have made it clear that while I doubt that was said it doesn't mean it wasn't said so I wanted to know where to look for it and what you gave me will help me with that.

Secondly to Doreen:I appreciate that you couldn't reply to every post about Richard but since you had joined this discussion and didn't do so anonomously thought you wanted to make your feelings known. I don't expect you to defend Richard which is why I didn't ask for an explanation if you felt he was innocent. I did however ask what you thought if you on the other hand thought he was guilty. Coming online to discuss a serial killer doesn't make me a spiteful, hateful person and while I myself do not understand what would attract you or anyone to a a person on deathrow I do know that I have not hurled abuse at you or any other poster that didn't agree with me. Most people myself included come to this board so we can talk to people with varying oppinions and on occasion my oppinions have been changed due to a particularly inciteful comment from someone else. I guess that the only people who could have any kind of impact on my thought process here are those that really do know Richard and are not just basing their oppinions on a feeling they have. Regardless on what you think I was not trying to converse with you so that I could engage in a condescending or arrogant diatribe, I actually was really curious but I guess you have made your feelings clear and it seems you do not want to discuss it so bad luck for me. Also just to clarify I felt that because I had made no reference to him being charged or convicted that meant I did not suggest it; but I can see your reasoning in that like myself when I first read all the references to his killing children had assumed it meant they used it in his trial and only found out later that it wasn't so just so everyone is clear on what I meant refer to my previous post which I have pasted below because that is what I was trying to convey not that he had actually been charged.


Doreen,
Sorry for the delay in my response but things have been quite hectic here at the moment.
It seems to me though that you can only claim that I am lying if I actually said he was charged and convicted which I can assure you I did not. That does not mean however that I believe that he could not have and did not commit crimes against children including murder (and the sensationalist web sites such as Crime Library also apparently believe the same). I can certainly understand how this is the one point you want to take issue with as he wasn't convicted of killing a child but certainly he has been thought responsible for more than one childs death. Of course by child I am now referring to a person under the age of 18 but don't for one minute think that whenever I referred to a persons child I was making that connection because I wasn't. Actually it was in reference to my deep dismay for the loss of a child being a mother myself and by that I mean any child regardless of age.
I am not trying to argue the validity of his trial here though I am open to discussion on any topic you may want to open.
I have a question of you though and that is to ask if you believe that Richard is innocent of the crimes he has been convicted with and if not what do you think occured?


Sharlock

[Livia]

I am devastated to think that poor maltreated Richard would laugh at what I say about him. I seriously doubt if he cares what I, or anyone else, thinks about him. His actions have made that clear enough. Sociopaths couldn't care less what others think of them.

I do wonder, tho, why a man charged (and convicted) of the hideous crimes of which Ramirez was convicted, would find any of this discussion humorous. Does he think raping, torturing, terrorizing and murdering innocent victims is funny? Well yes, come to think of it, he probably does find it amusing. Again--typical of a sociopath. I'm not a sociopath, so I fail to see the humor in his little adventures. My bad, huh?

And why commend Doreen for "being able to look them straight on" when she hasn't even answered my question--which is based on facts, BTW, not my alleged hostility?

I ask again:

What is one supposed to think of a man who brutally rapes a little boy while his mother lies helplessly bound in the next room?

What does Mrs. Richard Ramirez, or any of Richard's defenders, think of this little episode?

No, I don't expect an answer to be forthcoming--just more whines that I am guilty of "hating" poor Richard and "disrespecting" his wife-in-name-only.

The real "hater" here is Richard Ramirez--he hates the whole world so thoroughly that he tried to destroy as many innocent lives as possible.

All I have done is call him what he is--a monster and a sociopath.

If people can't face the truth, it really isn't my problem. It's theirs.

[dallasvic]

This guy is pure EVIL.:mad: When he was in the courtroom they zoomed in n him and you could look in his eyes and there was nothing there.Just pitch black.EVIL When he smiled it was a evil smerk. :eek:
I really feel for his family. I can't imangie how they feel.

[sharlock]

Sharlock, I don't think you was calling me a liar. I understand completely why you would ask for a link.

You seem to get upset when people defend Richard. I understand why some feel the way they do, but have you ever watched the bum deal Richard was given?
I know, what about the victims and their families, but if you really think about it, what did they convict Richard on, other than the dact that a third person said the jewelry that was found come from Richard.
They have no witnesses. (not that I know of)
They do not have him confessing to the crimes.
The description that was given by some can't really be proof considering that there are a lot of people with curly hair.
I watched I think all there is on him and read all there is on him and I saw nothing to actually prove he did this.
I did not see the trial, but I saw where he went to trial and what was said on the stories I watched.
In his interview with Phillip Carlo, I never read anywhere, that he confessed.
He was asked about serial killers, but this does not mean he was confessing to a crime. This only means he gave his opinion of a serial killer just as any other person gives their opinion.

I am not saying he did not commit the crimes, but I do question why the hate from people seems to be so personal?

If you are a family member, I could understand this, but you never said you was and I could be wrong, but I doubt a family member could stomach the good some might say about Richard.

If I know of someone to be guilty of such a horrible crime, I will state my peace about it and carry on. There is not even a discussion with some. There are insults directed towards Richard, but he is not on here to read them so they are not hurting him and even if he were on here, I doubt anything one said against him, would crush him. Given the staements he made in court and the ones you yourself posted about him, does not seem like a man that would worry of what was being said. He would probably laugh not so much at you, but at livia.

The only one I could see hurting is his wife and I seriously doubt she hurts by it. I guarantee she has heard far more disgusting things said of him.

I believe in showing respect for others. You nor anyone else might not understand her marrying him, but I respect her. This had to be very critical for her because we both know just how rude the public and the media probably was to her.

I commend you doreen for being able to look them straight on.

Sassy there were many witnesses at Richards trials and some of Richards victims identified him and gave great detail in thier account of the crimes he committed against them. These witnesses were not victims of a mugging they spent a lot of time with thier tormentor and that is why it was nearly impossible for the defense to show that they had thier identifications wrong. Ballistic evdence traced one of the guns used in the murders to a man who said he had gotten the gun from Richard Ramirez. Yes there was jewellery from some of the victims found but thier was also a survivor of Richards attack that identified a peice of jewellery found in Richards' sisters home as well as evidence in the form of photos submitted to show that some appliances from one of his murder victims was in Richards possession.
It was while all the evidence was being presented against him that Richard was reported to have changed his mind about putting on a defense and yeah he very well could have been railroaded into that by his lawyers, no doubt that if he had pleaded guilty there is a good chance he would not be sitting on deathrow today. I myself have never advocated for the death penalty so I would have rather seen him receive a life sentence.
It amuses me that when people defend Richard they cite his appalling upbringing as reason to excuse the worst of his offenses but then say they can find nothing to suggest that Richard is guilty.If he is not guilty then why bring up his abuse, shouldn't you be focusing on proving the prosecutors wrong. BTW I get no more upset by this topic than you do Sassie, it seems strange to me that I should have to defend my beliefs when you have come online and posted yours. I don't agree that only a family member would have reason to want to defend the victims of Richard it is not like they can defend themselves.
Also if their is good to be said about Richard I have not read it on this forum perhaps you might explain this goodness that I have missed
Sharlock

[Livia]

I agree that he's evil, dallasvic. No human being with an ounce of feeling for others could do what he did. Still, it doesn't surprise me that evil people do evil things--that's the nature of evil.

What DOES appall me is how many women fought over the "privilege" of getting Ramirez's attention, being his "girlfriend", even marrying him--if you can call it a real marriage. Under the law if a marriage isn't consummated, it isn't a "done deal"--it can be annulled.

But that's beside the point. What I cannot fathom is why any woman would be "attracted" to this monster in the first place. I know it happens--every murderer has his groupies. But I will never ever understand it--and it's horrifying to think that a serial killer has a "fan club"!

Can't these pathetic women find "real" men to marry? Or is it something in them that draws them to the most evil people in society? I couldn't stand being in the same room as someone who's committed the atrocities that Ramirez has.

I don't see most of Richard's defenders wasting any sympathy on his victims. Instead they choose to attack people who are offended by his actions (imagine that!!) and call them "hate-mongers".

If you want to see a real "hate-monger"---take a look at Richard Ramirez. THAT is the face of hatred.

[Livia]

Well, it might help to clarify things if we first define our terms. Here are the official criteria for a diagnosis of a sociopath (aka psychopath, aka dyssocial personality disorder), now generally known as "Antisocial Personality Disorder"--this comes from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) of Mental Disorders, 4th Edition, Revised Text:

"301.7 Antisocial Personality Disorder
A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, and indicated by three (or more) of the following:
(1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
(2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability or aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
(5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others
(6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
(7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

B. The individual is at least age 18 years.

C. There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.

D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode."

Those are just the bare-bones outline of a sociopath. Here's something a bit more relevant, also from the DSM-IV-TR:

"Individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder frequently lack empathy and tend to be callous, cynical, and contemptuous of the feelings, rights, and sufferings of others. They may have an inflated and arrogant self-appraisal and may be excessively opinionated, self-assured, or cocky. They may display a glib, superficial charm and can be quite voluble and verbally facile."

And this:

"The pattern of antisocial behavior continues into adulthood. Individuals with APD fail to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behavior. They may repeatedly perform acts that are grounds for arrest (whether they are arrested or not), such as destroying property, harassing others, stealing, or pursuing illegal occupations. Persons with this disorder disregard the wishes, rights, or feelings of others. They are frequently deceitful and manipulative in order to gain personal power or pleasure. They may repeatedly lie, use an alias, con others, or malinger.....Individuals with APD tend to be irritable and aggressive and may get into repeated fights or commit acts of physical assault (including spouse beating or child beating)....Individuals with APD show little remorse for the consequences of their acts. They may be indifferent to, or provide a superficial rationalization for having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from someone (e.g. "life's unfair", "losers deserve to lose", or "he had it coming anyway".) These individuals may blame the victims for being foolish, helpless, or deserving their fate; they may minimize the harmful consequences of their actions; or they may simply indicate complete indifference. They generally fail to compensate or make amends for their behavior. They may believe that everyone is out to "help number one" and that one should stop at nothing to avoid being pushed around."

Sound like anyone we know?? :rolleyes:

As for my question to Mrs. Ramirez (I asked it since she is so emphatic that her Richard has never killed a child--apparently adolescents and adults are "fair game") I wondered if this abuse of a child--while not amounting to murder--would change her view of her hubby:

During one of his home invasions, Ramirez not only tied up and raped the wife (*yawn* standard business for him) but then went into her little son's bedroom and raped him. The mother was still tied up and unable to help her son: she was forced to lie there helplessly listening to her child scream and beg for help...at which point Ramirez slapped the child and ordered him to "shut up!". Now I admit--he didn't murder this child. Then again, it is hardly admirable behavior, now is it?

Does Mrs. Ramirez really draw that big a distinction between killing a child and viciously raping a little boy???

BTW--as I recall, he murdered the father/husband.

If these are not the acts of a sociopath, please explain to me in plain English just what Ramirez WAS doing?

[doreenramirez55]

Sharlock: While I recognize your attempts to conduct reasonable conversations, any such attempts (especially about a sensitive subject matter) usually degenerate rapidly into a namecalling free-for-all. Neither "side" wins. What you are mistaking as my reticence to discuss my personal feelings is actually the weariness of constantly having to defend those personal feelings, especially to people who are predisposed to condemning me for them. I have stood beside Richard for almost 22 years, so my feelings should be self-evident.

Sassie: I appreciate your compassionate sentiments. Clearly you are a very decent, openminded individual, and I hope you will not allow the negativity to dissuade you from being a good person.

[Livia]

Sassie, you are very welcome! :) I think a lot of people don't really understand what a sociopath is: it does help having a clear description, doesn't it? The info I gave came from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) which is generally referred to as the "Bible" of the psychiatric profession.

I also agree with you that everyone is human. I'm not suggesting that even the likes of Ramirez should be treated as brutally as he treated his victims: that is morally wrong in my view, and furthermore would only lower us to his level. What I am saying is that I am appalled that there are people (not you!!) who actually seem to admire this creature, in spite of all the horrors he inflicted on innocent victims. And of course the survivors all are still suffering--no one just "gets over" a trauma like that.

The very thought that Ramirez might ever get out of prison--while granted it's very very unlikely--scares me half to death. Sociopaths don't change, because they have no conscience. With most people, I do believe in the chance for redemption, but I was always taught that for redemption to take place, the person first must feel true remorse for his/her actions. I just don't see how it's possible for a sociopath to feel true remorse. And I have never seen or heard anything to indicate remorse on Ramirez's part.

It's interesting that Mrs. Ramirez still has not responded to my question. But I forget: she's bored by it all, apparently, after all these years of defending her hubby. I suggest she might as well get used to it, since the defense will never be able to rest in his case.

It's also interesting that my enumeration of just a few of poor Richard's crimes makes me a "negative" person.

But maybe I am. I "just say no" to murder, rape, and torture.

Silly, intolerant me.

[doreenramirez55]

Sarcasm...from someone who hates Richard but hangs all over a message board about him like wet laundry... Gee, THAT's never happened before. I'm going to try very hard not to cry into my pillow tonight.

[sincere]

I corresponded with Richard for a couple years. It was quite interesting but he famously writes very short letters filled with more questions than answers. He recommended some literature in the shape of Plato and Nietzsche (he of course used the expression that he was "beyond good and evil" at his trial - the title of a Nietzsche book).

[sharlock]

I corresponded with Richard for a couple years. It was quite interesting but he famously writes very short letters filled with more questions than answers. He recommended some literature in the shape of Plato and Nietzsche (he of course used the expression that he was "beyond good and evil" at his trial - the title of a Nietzsche book).
I have never read Nietzsche to know exactly what this expression was meant to infer but I suspect he believes he is above it all and above the common man. Certainly explains how he could take life so callously and cruelly.
Sharlock

[sharlock]

I corresponded with Richard for a couple years. It was quite interesting but he famously writes very short letters filled with more questions than answers. He recommended some literature in the shape of Plato and Nietzsche (he of course used the expression that he was "beyond good and evil" at his trial - the title of a Nietzsche book).
BTW nice to see a new face around here sincere! I would be interested to hear what you did discuss with Richard.
Sharlock:seeya:

[sharlock]

What the heck, has Richard already been put to death and no one wants to talk about it?

What are you talking about Sassie? As far as I am aware Richard still retains his pulse so I'm wondering what you are referring to?
Sharlock

[sharlock]

I have asked doreen questions and the new comer about Richard. No one answers any. Why?
Imo oppinion when you first start posting here it is a bit of a labrynth between threads and is time consuming because you are trying to catchup with all of the threads that interest you so I would say that is why Sincere hasn't replied, but I can help some.
Plato is an ancient greek philosopher. He was an amazing man and his writings on philosophy are studied to this day. He was also a great mathmetician and started the first institution of higher learning in the Western world.Most of his work is profound.
I am not familiar with with Nietzches quotes but I do know that he is a german philosopher who wrote on many topics religion(was quite anti christian but wasn't necessarily against Jesus more Christians themselves for their hypocritical nature as he saw it). After reading Sinceres post I went and looked up the late period writing called "Beyond Good and Evil". I have a quote below describing the work.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ
Therein he identifies the qualities of genuine philosophers: imagination, self-assertion, danger, originality and the "creation of values" - all else he considers incidental. Continuing from this he contests some key pre-suppositions such as "self-consciousness", "knowledge", "truth" and "free will" as used by some of the great representatives of the philosophic tradition. Instead of these traditional analyses, which Nietzsche paints as insufficient, he offers the will to power as an explanatory device, being part of his "perspective of life" which he regards as "beyond good and evil", denying a universal morality for all human beings. The (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ)master and slave moralities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-Slave_Morality) feature prominently as Nietzsche re-evaluates deeply-held (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ)humanistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism) beliefs, portraying even domination, appropriation and injury to the weak as not universally objectionable. A tone of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ)moral relativism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism) and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ)perspectivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspectivism) dominates throughout.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ)
Here are some examples of his quotes that you've probably heard before.
What does not destroy me, makes me strong. [Or, What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.].
Given a big enough why people can bear almost any how.
Author: Friedrich Neitzche (http://www.worldofquotes.com/author/Friedrich-Neitzche/1/index.html)


About Doreen not replying well you will have to ask her.
Sharlock

[sincere]

Richard is alive and kicking. He can drag out his appeals and arguments of incapable lawyers for a good few years yet.

Plato? Yes he told me to read that less than 2 years ago. He has not changed.

Do you cage a lion for years and he then no longer wants to eat you given a chance?

Poor Doreen, I do feel for her but she must realise Ramirez used her for publicity and money. Think I am wrong? I can name at least 10 females that he writes to now all the time and flirts, asks them for photos of their legs etc, always asking for help finding asian women to write to - does that sound like the actions of a reformed and happily married man? Not really. He told me more, but that can come later.

[sharlock]

Richard is alive and kicking. He can drag out his appeals and arguments of incapable lawyers for a good few years yet.

Plato? Yes he told me to read that less than 2 years ago. He has not changed.

Do you cage a lion for years and he then no longer wants to eat you given a chance?

Poor Doreen, I do feel for her but she must realise Ramirez used her for publicity and money. Think I am wrong? I can name at least 10 females that he writes to now all the time and flirts, asks them for photos of their legs etc, always asking for help finding asian women to write to - does that sound like the actions of a reformed and happily married man? Not really. He told me more, but that can come later.

I couldn't agree more. Articles imply and Doreen suggests (but will not actually say) that she believes Richard is innocent of the crimes. I could be wrong there though because she would not be admitting she believes him guilty while there are appeals ongoing.
Sassie Sincere has opened a new thread that includes photos of his correspondence with many different murderers including Ramirez and includes a really intelligent and inciteful article he wrote. Worth having a look at.
Sharlock

[dallasvic]

I couldn't agree more. Articles imply and Doreen suggests (but will not actually say) that she believes Richard is innocent of the crimes. I could be wrong there though because she would not be admitting she believes him guilty while there are appeals ongoing.
Sassie Sincere has opened a new thread that includes photos of his correspondence with many different murderers including Ramirez and includes a really intelligent and inciteful article he wrote. Worth having a look at.
Sharlock

I totally agree, having another thread on this subject is great. There are so many people in prison that have contact via e-mail or writing letters and so have fan clubs.Men especially attract woman, some who are vulnerable, for support, money etc. Alot are able to have access to computers.
This goes for any criminal no matter what the crime is.I also know someone that went to prison and she had many men she wrote to and they all sent her money in the promise when she got out she would be together with them, but she already has a man waiting for her that visited every time it was visiting day. I am sure the one they write to believe it is on the up and up.
And I think that some of the one that write and fall in love while in prison have the intention of being with one person when the do get out.
Criminals are con-artist also, so I am sure that play a big part in what they are doing in some cases at least.
Richard does need help IMO I do not think he should ever be let out of prison.

[sharlock]

Where is this site?
Sorry Sassie I missed your post somehow. He's started a thread in this forum CL it's in the (SerialKillers/MassMurderers)My collection of letters and art from prisoner correspondence.
Sharlock

[sincere]

Sassie, the reason some letters are sold/bought is because they are rare - a lot of people simply do not reply - especially high profile prisoners. I wrote to Richard 3 times before he replied to me.

I dont care what the postman thinks - its none of his business. Only on a few occasions have I actually used false names and addresses to write to certain prisoners who might have leaked what I wrote to press or other inmates, so it was necessary to take such precautions but other than those few times I write as myself and my family know what I do and they are fine with it, its not an obsession thing or groupie thing as some might see it - its a criminal psychology interest in me that drives me to the source - reading books on criminals will give you a biased view of the facts - writing to the perpetrator is a direct link to understanding the true motives of the person and the crime.

[sharlock]

Still here Sassie just got a few issues at the moment.
I sent you a PM.
Sharlock

[sincere]

Here is a letter he sent to one of his many female correspondents.
This is typical of his letters. Yes this is since he got married.


http://members.aol.com/hayct3/rram1.jpg

[sincere]

he wrote simple usually 2 sided letters, more asking questions about my life, upbringing, interests - didnt give much away about himself, but the letter I posted, apparently he was really into her and she let him down by going on talk shows about him.

[sharlock]

he wrote simple usually 2 sided letters, more asking questions about my life, upbringing, interests - didnt give much away about himself, but the letter I posted, apparently he was really into her and she let him down by going on talk shows about him.

I guess you can add yourself to that list now Sincere as soon as Doreen lets him know what's on here. I had to laugh when I saw that typo hype for hip how appropriate. The way I see it though is if these girls are silly enough to crave the attention of a serial killer then so be it. I don't think there would be even one guy in jail that would say no to letters like these so I can't balme him but I do think you need to be careful when you then go and upset that person after disc