Richard Ramirez

[ViciousVamp]

Does anyone know if Richard Ramirez is still alive or has he been executed?

[2L8 4A D8]

Unfortunately, he is still alive. He got LWOP so the only way that he is going to get out is in a pine box. He also got married a while back.

[ripper]

So why haven't they executed him yet?

[MrToadsWildRide]

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8
Unfortunately, he is still alive. He got LWOP so the only way that he is going to get out is in a pine box. He also got married a while back.

LWOP? He is on Death Row...San Quentin.He is one of the most brutal serial killers I have ever read about.He gave me nightmares.:chicken:

[FeelinFroggy617]

Originally posted by MrToadsWildRide


LWOP? He is on Death Row...San Quentin.He is one of the most brutal serial killers I have ever read about.He gave me nightmares.:chicken:


And if I'm not mistaken, SOMEONE actually married him!!! :rolleyes:

[MrToadsWildRide]

Yes indeed...what in the he!! was she thinking?:chicken:

[barskin&co.]

Originally posted by FeelinFroggy617



And if I'm not mistaken, SOMEONE actually married him!!! :rolleyes:


Ah yes, the lovely, if not particularly sane, Doreen Lioy (http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/(AP)%20Richard%20&%20Doreen,%20wedding%20(200).jpg)

[2L8 4A D8]

Don't ya just hate it when a newbie starts a Thread and asks a question and then you never hear from them again? WTH? What's up with that? At least you should come back and thank everybody for their responses and end the Thread, but to just leave it hanging and hanging, well, I just don't get it! Sorry to vent!

JMO and MOO!!

[decneirepxxxe]

Ramirez was murdering folks up and down the I5 corridor in So Cal the summer my daughter was born. We lived about 5 miles from the freeway in Laguna Beach at the time and it was a very hot summer. I remember sleeping with the windows closed, we lived in a yellow house and ramirez was hitting yellow houses.

[CalifMermaid]

I was 15 and I couldn't sleep at night because I was so afraid he would break in the house while I was sleeping. I stayed up late every night for a week until they caught him

I can't begin to imagine the terror you guys felt with that man on the loose.

[decneirepxxxe]

Originally posted by luvvie
I can't begin to imagine the terror you guys felt with that man on the loose.

It was scary. Scarier was years earlier when my prior husband briefly represented Wm Bonin. I was at his house with his partner the day the cops came to dig in the back yard looking for bodies.

[Adalena935]

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8
Unfortunately, he is still alive. He got LWOP so the only way that he is going to get out is in a pine box. He also got married a while back.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/trial_9.html

On November 9, he was officially sentenced to death nineteen times.

[Cinnared]

Originally posted by Phil306
Richard Ramirez is just a misunderstood man. He is conforming to Jesus Christ, admitting his sins, is married, is writing children books, and is giving law enforcement insight to a serial killers mind.

I believe we should commute his death penalty, to life in prison; even with the possiblity of parole. Just because he killed all those people doesn't mean he cannot change and become a productive member of society. He is already doing so. Jesus says: Thou shalt not kill.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Yea Right

[Bandz0408]

Originally posted by Phil306
Richard Ramirez is just a misunderstood man. He is conforming to Jesus Christ, admitting his sins, is married, is writing children books, and is giving law enforcement insight to a serial killers mind.

I believe we should commute his death penalty, to life in prison; even with the possiblity of parole. Just because he killed all those people doesn't mean he cannot change and become a productive member of society. He is already doing so. Jesus says: Thou shalt not kill.



So basically he is another TOokie, hes writing a book so we should let him go. PLEASE. IF he were to ever get out of jail, his rage might again build up and he may start killing again.

Kill him now before he has that chance again.

And while your at it, ask his victims if they believed in god.

:rose: :rose: FOr all his victims.

[Bandz0408]

Originally posted by Phil306
Man, you guys can't see my original post was DRIPPING in sarcasm???

Actually I was going with sarcasm until I read the "thou shall not kill" part, I thought for sure you were serious at that point :)

[Talking Tina]

Originally posted by ViciousVamp
Does anyone know if Richard Ramirez is still alive or has he been executed?

still very much alive and on death row at San Quentin state prison. He's appeals are nearly exhausted and his execution will most likely be in a year or two (possibly alot less than that). There are two executions ahead of him.

[Talking Tina]

Originally posted by Phil306
Man, you guys can't see my original post was DRIPPING in sarcasm???

DRIPPING? Luv it! :tongue: :tongue:

[CardShark]

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8
Don't ya just hate it when a newbie starts a Thread and asks a question and then you never hear from them again? WTH? What's up with that? At least you should come back and thank everybody for their responses and end the Thread, but to just leave it hanging and hanging, well, I just don't get it! Sorry to vent!

JMO and MOO!!

Personally speaking, I dislike it more when a seasoned poster responds with totally incorrect information as you did in the first response on this thread.

Perhaps the original poster was confused by the conflicting/false responses.

Ramirez didn't get LWOP. He received the death penalty and is currently on death row.

[JuJu]

I believe I heard somewhere that his marriage didn't last. I don't think his wife was too tightly wrapped to begin with but I guess there is someone for everyone. :rolleyes:

Did he really write a children's book? Someone please tell me that was a joke...

[Talking Tina]

Originally posted by JuJu
I believe I heard somewhere that his marriage didn't last. I don't think his wife was too tightly wrapped to begin with but I guess there is someone for everyone. :rolleyes:

Did he really write a children's book? Someone please tell me that was a joke...

no, executed San Quentin prisoner Tookie Williams wrote a children's book. Not Ramirez. I'm for death penalty too. Ramirez is coming up soon I hope. He deserves it.

[CTA2RLS]

Didn't his wife say if he is executed she will kill herself? Will the state of CA have a suicide watch on her the day he is executed?

[ravenonic]

I hope not.... She should die too...LOL

[Talking Tina]

Originally posted by CTA2RLS
Didn't his wife say if he is executed she will kill herself? Will the state of CA have a suicide watch on her the day he is executed?

Someone once told me she vowed to. They're still married but reportedly, not together anymore.

Or so I heard. Whats the attraction to him? :chicken: :shrug:

[barskin&co.]

Originally posted by Phil306
Richard Ramirez is just a misunderstood man. He is conforming to Jesus Christ, admitting his sins, is married, is writing children books, and is giving law enforcement insight to a serial killers mind.

I believe we should commute his death penalty, to life in prison; even with the possiblity of parole. Just because he killed all those people doesn't mean he cannot change and become a productive member of society. He is already doing so. Jesus says: Thou shalt not kill.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


You have to understand, Phil, there are actually a few loonies who post here who believe that sort of thing (although the rolleyes should have been a tip off, I admit). For instance, there are people who believe that Jeffrey MacDonald, who savagely stabbed to death his own pregnant wife and two very young daughters, has been in prison "long enough."

[barskin&co.]

Originally posted by Talking Tina


Someone once told me she vowed to. They're still married but reportedly, not together anymore.

Or so I heard. Whats the attraction to him? :chicken: :shrug:

He has lots of groupies fighting over him, who think he is really "hot." For the sake of brevity, I refer to this these type of women as lunatics.

[Talking Tina]

Originally posted by barskin&co.


He has lots of groupies fighting over him, who think he is really "hot." For the sake of brevity, I refer to this these type of women as lunatics.

tell me about it. Desperate.....and lonely. SHeesh!

not my cup o' tea at all! i mean serial killers! :chicken:

[Talking Tina]

Originally posted by CTA2RLS
Didn't his wife say if he is executed she will kill herself? Will the state of CA have a suicide watch on her the day he is executed?

thats what she says...she'll kill herself when he's executed. but she said that a long long time ago.

i don't know much about it though......her or him. :chicken:

[*polly*ramirez*]

tnx god he's still alive!!!
and his wife isnt the only one who's going to commit suicide if richard dies...
richard is the most beautiful man in this world...
ljubim ga na wso moè!!
moj mali srèek
**mwwa**

[barskin&co.]

Originally posted by barskin&co.
He has lots of groupies fighting over him, who think he is really "hot." For the sake of brevity, I refer to this these type of women as lunatics.

Originally posted by *polly*ramirez*
tnx god he's still alive!!!
and his wife isnt the only one who's going to commit suicide if richard dies...
richard is the most beautiful man in this world...
ljubim ga na wso mo?!
moj mali srèek
**mwwa**

I rest my case.

[cami]

Originally posted by barskin&co.




I rest my case.

:lol: :lol:

[doreenramirez55]

I can see why no one has posted here about Richard since March 2006--quite a bit of misinformation floating around here. For the record, my husband does not have an execution date; he is still at a relatively early stage of the appellate process. Secondly, Richard and I are very much together. Rumors generally start when people have no access to the facts. Thank you to the people who have been supportive to Richard over the years.

[2L8 4A D8]

LWOP? He is on Death Row...San Quentin.He is one of the most brutal serial killers I have ever read about.He gave me nightmares.:chicken:

Thank you. I stand corrected!

[Paul Richardson]

Richard Ramirez is definitely the ugliest serial killer who ever lived--a publisher of a Hispanic Newspaper in California stated that he should be executed just on the fact that he was too ugly to live---Ramirez right now is suffering from emphysema and lung cancer and doesn't have long to live as per SQV who is a poster on another board who visits her brother on Death Row frequently--Ramirez is struggling to breathe as we speak and thank God for that--I believe he also had most of his teeth torn out many years go in prison because,with his abnormal fear of dentists, he had just let his teeth rot away--During his infamous murders,Ramirez was in constant pain from his rotten smelly teeth--hopefully this rabid dog killer will soon drop dead and that now appears to be happening

[2L8 4A D8]

Richard Ramirez is definitely the ugliest serial killer who ever lived--a publisher of a Hispanic Newspaper in California stated that he should be executed just on the fact that he was too ugly to live---Ramirez right now is suffering from emphysema and lung cancer and doesn't have long to live as per SQV who is a poster on another board who visits her brother on Death Row frequently--Ramirez is struggling to breathe as we speak and thank God for that--I believe he also had most of his teeth torn out many years go in prison because,with his abnormal fear of dentists, he had just let his teeth rot away--During his infamous murders,Ramirez was in constant pain from his rotten smelly teeth--hopefully this rabid dog killer will soon drop dead and that now appears to be happening

Well, what goes around ~ comes around and not soon enough either! At least it will be one less killer scumbag that the Taxpayers of the State of California will have to foot the bill for!

:mad: Buh Bye Richard and Good Riddance! :seeya:

JMO and MOO!!

[diamond d]

I can see why no one has posted here about Richard since March 2006--quite a bit of misinformation floating around here. For the record, my husband does not have an execution date; he is still at a relatively early stage of the appellate process. Secondly, Richard and I are very much together. Rumors generally start when people have no access to the facts. Thank you to the people who have been supportive to Richard over the years.


As if your his wife ... if you are answer this question, what does Richard have under his right armpit?

[2L8 4A D8]

As if your his wife ... if you are answer this question, what does Richard have under his right armpit?

I will be very surprised if we ever hear from her again, DD!

[diamond d]

I will be very surprised if we ever hear from her again, DD!

I have a feeling your right about that o else she will reply with some smart ass all offended that we question her comment...

[Auntie Venom]

I have never understood the phenomenon of serial killer groupies. Like the women with the long hair and hoop earrings at Ted Bundy's trial...pathetic.
There was a very enlightening special on E about people who marry those behind bars, or fall in love with them. I'll never understand it.
I don't think that that woman was Doreen Lioy anymore than I believe that "polly ramirez" was serious. I think they're both trolls...in more way than one!

[2L8 4A D8]

I have never understood the phenomenon of serial killer groupies. Like the women with the long hair and hoop earrings at Ted Bundy's trial...pathetic.
There was a very enlightening special on E about people who marry those behind bars, or fall in love with them. I'll never understand it.
I don't think that that woman was Doreen Lioy anymore than I believe that "polly ramirez" was serious. I think they're both trolls...in more way than one!

I agree AV! I also call them "One Hit Wonders!" They have maybe one or two posts and are never heard from again! All they want to do is bait, incite and inflame Posters.

JMO and MOO!!

[Auntie Venom]

2L8, I think you're right. I've been offline a couple days and I noticed that neither has picked up the thread again.

[diamond d]

what cracks me up is that does the person think that after we read their post the whole board will be like OMG his wife was here, he is really a great guy, blah blah blah, lol i dunno, just funny. Why not come here and post your opinion honestly, if you really think and believe Ramirez is a fabulous guy, a pillar of our community, hey, say so, post it and get ready for the reaction. But at least you'll be more respected for doing that than making a fake account and posting some BS.

[glennmcmellon]

after what he put those people through he should have frazzled years ago.being in england and not having a death penalty ourselves i cant understand why its taken nearly 20 years to do the right and decent thing and relieve us from this monster

[abigailjazz]

Shes the real Mrs. Ramirez! Ive been on message boards for 6 years dealing with Ramirez. Doreen is thick skinned and posts logically. personally, weve talked a litle here and there. Im sure you remember GUIDO right Doreen? I have a couple of letters from RR.

Anyhow, my writing sks days are over! Got too dark to continue. Didnt feel i was doing the morally correct thing by befreinding killers.

Doreen, who do you think guido actually was?

[diamond d]

HaHaHa, cracks me up I tell ya...

[doreenramirez55]

Abigailjazz, thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I miss the good old days--Guido was far from a worthy opponent, but he was always good for a chuckle when his veins started protruding! I'm approximately 98% sure who he was, but I wouldn't want to say for the record. Take care, ok?

[abigailjazz]

Abigailjazz, thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I miss the good old days--Guido was far from a worthy opponent, but he was always good for a chuckle when his veins started protruding! I'm approximately 98% sure who he was, but I wouldn't want to say for the record. Take care, ok?

OK, doreen! People just speculated that guido was a work of fiction, yet i believe he really was a family member.

i sware tho, all these years i cant believe how you put up with these vicious groupies! I assume dozens of woman fall in love with our hubby each year---month lol...now you have bad-tracy on the forums lol...it never ends! polly ramirez, betty ramirez...it goes on and on.

yep, the good old days, when skc was fun and full of crazy people! Ah, memories. enjoy your day DR!

anyone intersted in what were talking about can type in serial killer central on google. they have a forum and many ppl on there write sks...i did for awhile but it felt morally wrong for me. check it out tho...good convo about true crime etc.

[abigailjazz]

BTW--if you folks go to the forum at serial killer central you will find a certain "glamourzation" of serial killers. youll find richard groupies, manson followers and etc. i tel ya, its a trip! you may get upset!

im not certain this is the link but maybe---

http://www.skcentral.com

[doreenramirez55]

Hey, Abigailjazz! I see I'm not the only one wide awake at the moment!

Yes, I agree--definitely a family member. And if it's the one I had it narrowed down to, Guido had no room to talk. SKC was a lot of fun in those days--such a varied and lively bunch. As for the women, it did get ugly when it needn't have.

I completely understand your need to cease correspondence. You have to do what feels right for you, and I commend you for still being interested in conversing with anyone in this kind of forum. You should drop into SKC-- you might be amused!

Take care!

[star1974]

doreen, is it true that richard is suffering from emphesima and lung cancer? also, i am curious about when you met him. i know you were married in 1996, but how long before that did you meet richard? i have read the 'night stalker', and watched 'biography' which was on A&E, i watched it on youtube.com and also have done some research online about richard. i have to admit, something draws me toward him. he's a very handsome man, i don't care what anyone else says.

[doreenramirez55]

Thanks for the opportunity to again refute the lie that Richard is suffering from emphysema or lung cancer. Absolutely untrue. That information can be traced to a sergeant at San Quentin who also told a reporter he never sees me there anymore, implying Richard and I are no longer together. Just because he, personally, may not have seen me for a long time doesn't mean I stopped visiting. There are plenty of other officers who see me at visiting every single week.

[star1974]

thank you for replying, and i'm glad to hear all is well. :)

[tinakaye]

I was reading this on Ramirez on this forum at this link: http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-107800.html

Pretty interesting, the things I read there.

But here's my question; If Ramirez has confessed to these murders, which from all that I have read and seen on TV, he has confessed and even told details in some cases, then how could his wife believe he is innocent? I do not want to disrespect anyone, Richard or Doreen, but this is something I was wondering about.

I might add, that his so called 'groupies' have to realize he is a married man. Whe do they even bother? He is devoted to his wife, if he wasn't he wouldn't have married her. I wouldn't like other women writing and lusting after MY husband.

[doreenramirez55]

Richard has never confessed. There are so many websites out there, each one trying to outdo the other for shock value, so please do not believe everything you read on the internet. Thank you for asking so respectfully.

[star1974]

Richard Ramirez is definitely the ugliest serial killer who ever lived--a publisher of a Hispanic Newspaper in California stated that he should be executed just on the fact that he was too ugly to live---Ramirez right now is suffering from emphysema and lung cancer and doesn't have long to live as per SQV who is a poster on another board who visits her brother on Death Row frequently--Ramirez is struggling to breathe as we speak and thank God for that--I believe he also had most of his teeth torn out many years go in prison because,with his abnormal fear of dentists, he had just let his teeth rot away--During his infamous murders,Ramirez was in constant pain from his rotten smelly teeth--hopefully this rabid dog killer will soon drop dead and that now appears to be happening


well, you're entitled to your opinion, but let me just say this; whether or not he is guilty of these crimes, only he knows, but he is still a human being, and he still needs to feel loved. i would not wish harm upon him, or anyone else. especially something like cancer. remember; God loves richard just as much as He loves any of us, like it or not.

[star1974]

As if your his wife ... if you are answer this question, what does Richard have under his right armpit?

ok, i have to ask for the sake of curiousity, what DOES richard have under his right armpit?

[doreenramirez55]

After I finished laughing at THAT one, I asked Richard if he DID have something under his right armpit that I didn't know about, and after HE finished laughing, he said that was the most ridiculous thing he'd ever heard.

[star1974]

lol, ok thanks doreen, i just had to ask.

[nbatch20]

It has nothing to do with "out doing" anyone. It has to do with being a website that posts the correct information. My website it not a groupie site nor a shrine. I see Richard as two people. Richard the person and Richard the nightstalker. We can't really say what would have happened or how Richard would be if he was not in prision. He is not on the drugs that he was on 20 years ago. I have given Doreen and Richard both the chance to tell there sides on my website and instead of talking about me they just stoped writing me.

www.richardramirez.net

Nick

[star1974]

It has nothing to do with "out doing" anyone. It has to do with being a website that posts the correct information. My website it not a groupie site nor a shrine. I see Richard as two people. Richard the person and Richard the nightstalker. We can't really say what would have happened or how Richard would be if he was not in prision. He is not on the drugs that he was on 20 years ago. I have given Doreen and Richard both the chance to tell there sides on my website and instead of talking about me they just stoped writing me.

www.richardramirez.net

Nick



nick your site is a very good one! i wish doreen would come to it.

[nbatch20]

THANKS!! Richard stoped writing me about a year ago so did Doreen. If was something wrong with my site that they would have liked me to change or add all they would have had to do is ask. But instead they ignored me.

[AmyW]

Just ignored you, eh? :rolleyes:

I wonder why they just stopped out of the blue? Doreen seems really chatty on this forum. :tongue:

[nbatch20]

Just ignored you, eh? :rolleyes:

I wonder why they just stopped out of the blue? Doreen seems really chatty on this forum. :tongue:

I have no idea put yet they STILL don't say anything. If there was something that I did or said would be a lot better to just say it.:punch:

[doreenramirez55]

No, Richard's "time" is not coming soon, and no, he is not writing a book of any kind.

[sallynuts]

What???????

You make absolutely no sense to me... who cares what this man wants... after what he did, he should rot in hell...how do you come to this ??:confused:

He should get exactly the same choice as he gave his victims... which was.. no choice at all

[allan]

I have never understood the phenomenon of serial killer groupies. Like the women with the long hair and hoop earrings at Ted Bundy's trial...pathetic.
There was a very enlightening special on E about people who marry those behind bars, or fall in love with them. I'll never understand it.
I don't think that that woman was Doreen Lioy anymore than I believe that "polly ramirez" was serious. I think they're both trolls...in more way than one!

They all want there 15 minutes of fame

[allan]

What???????

You make absolutely no sense to me... who cares what this man wants... after what he did, he should rot in hell...how do you come to this ??:confused:

He should get exactly the same choice as he gave his victims... which was.. no choice at all

i hope you don't mind me being on here as i'm english, but i did see a lot of this guys court apperances, after the things he has done i believe he's lost the right to life, and the quicker he's disposed of the better

[sharlock]

I disagree with you. There are a manny of people that feel the way you do therefore, I am not surprised to see one more.

Richard has made mistakes in the past, but he has served his time. He has had his life taken from him for at least 21 years now. This averages a little over a year for each one of the murders.

What I do not understand is the criminal minds of everyone else. To wish death is in my opinion just as criminal as the ones that actually committed a crime.

Murder is murder, it does not matter who pulls the trigger, shoots sticks the needle in the are, are who fills the syringes. They are all crimes! Aiding the crime is just as bad, if not worse.

This is not my forum and you have the right to post heare as much as anyone unless the administrator decides other wise. Keep posting, it is good to hear others opinions.


I'm sorry but being from Australia (we have no death penalty ) my view is that a person who inflicts sooooo much pain on not only his victims but his victims families; he gave up his rights when he decided that he had the right to deprive others of theirs. I don't agree with the death penalty because when it comes down to it with all the appeals it costs more to keep a serial killer till he is killed then it does to provide for a lifer and I guess I don't want to be a killer myself; but I definately think he deserves no conjugal rights he deserves no respect and while some people can find it in themselves to want to be attached to such a vile creature it does not change what they are and that is a person who thought so little of others that they could torture degrade and kill another human being believing that was their right. It was not his right and he did not get sentenced for being an innocent party although I am aware that this can happen. This man did these horrific things and of that there is no doubt!!!!! What is wrong with you people wouldn't your time be better spent trying to help those children deprived of their mothers than worrying about a person who never thought of anyone but themself when it most mattered???:shrug:
Sharlock

RIP to all the victims who deserved better than what they got:rose: :rose:

PS Hail Satan????? I could think of better things to do with my time!!

[sharlock]

sharlock, I respect what it is you are saying and I agree with most. However, there are so many murderers and one is no better than the other.
If one gets life, then they all should.

Rape, robbery, and murder in the end show that something was taken and in no one will get back every thing they was robbed of.

Look at the all of the murders that got life, 20 years, 15 years, etc. why? Is it because they plead guilty? Is it because they were not a follower of a different religeon?

Richard should not have been condemed for his belief. We may not agree with it, but it was something he truly believed in. Was he being punished in part because of this?

In my opinion, there are far more despicable people that have committed murder, sent to prison, and released after serving a short time that I would be more concerned of as opposed to if Richard were to be released.

Richard could believe whole heartedly in the tooth fairy and I couldn't care less. You are right though if someone takes a life and it is not in self defense THEY SHOULD ALL GET LIFE just what they took.
Sharlock

[sharlock]

sharlock, What about the circumstances surrounding the people the murder?

Some people kill just because they want recognition of some sort.
Some kill because of being brain washed.
Some kill because of their up-brininging.
Some kill because they are so high on drugs.
Some kill because they are threatened.

There are so many dufferent reasons why people kill. People thing that the killing spree will stop if people were to get death row, but what this has taught some people, is that if they plead guilty to the crime, then they can get life.

There are so many people on death row because they did not commit to the crime in which they were charged, so they get death, but if they plead guilty to a crime they did not commit, then they get death. What happens to those that plead guilty to escape the death penalty?

They plead innocent because they can't understand what evidence the prosecutors have that would convict them. I do not feel evidence alone any more is what convicts most.

Most are so blind to the fact of the possible innocense in someone, they convict and leave it up to the defense to prove the person innocent with proff to help set a person free after conviction.

How many people have had to give their life up for 10 years or more because of lies, fabrication, no proof, no motive, and sometimes nothing at all.

Then you have people that move to a different state to kill so they can avoid the death penalty, olead guilty, and then get life with the possiblity of parole.

Richard Ramirez wanted to plead guilty, but with the advice of his attorney telling him he could win his case is why he went to trial. Do some of the defense attorneys help in the framing of their client? Can it be proven?

Richard was not brought up the way most would like to be. He don't blame anyone for what he did, but is it because he is in denial?

Did you ever have anyone shot to death just a few feet away from you? Did you have a dad beat you as opposed to spanking you? Was you able to just drop out of school at the age of 15 without an adult to try and talk you out of it?
These are just a few of the things that Richard has went through. Do you not feel one ounce of compassion for him for having been raised the way he was?
Before I reply I just want to clarify something I said earlier.my society doesn't condone capital punishment so life IS the toughest sentence you can get here, my argument for life is just that life behind bars.


Sure I can empathise for any CHILD put through a less than kind upbringing and can even relate somewhat but I do not excuse an adults actions because of it. I realise your circumstances influence your decisions as an adult that is why we need to do more to help these CHILDREN but if they are now an adult and have already made thier choices than they must also live with the consequences of the decisions they made. Do you delve into the background of the victims to see what trials and tribulations they are overcoming, do they not deserve thier lives and because he was abused does that mean he had a if not a right than a reason to take thiers??? He is not in jail for killing the person who abused him, that I could understand and even sometimes put under the heading of selfdefense he hunted and tortured then killed complete strangers.
Of course there are exceptions to every rule I mean if you were to tell me he had the mental capacity of a 4yr old that would make a difference but You are the one who is using to broader brushstroke when you try to paint Richard as the victim.:rolleyes:
Sharlock

[sharlock]

sharlock, good post!
I use Richard as an example because there are very few that I feel deserve some compassion.

I believe in life without parole. I just get angry when you have someone that committed murder get a 15 year sentence, another get 20 years, and another egt life or death.


I have studied a great deal of different crimes over the years. Depending on the person I talk about, depends on the last person I read about.

I just recently read and watched about Richard is the reason why he is the main subject right now.
A&E just the other night. There were things that conincided with what I read.
There have been so many things that have read that are untrue and I do not feel this is right. However, the first ammendmant allows this, so this is why I feel if a person is going to criticise another person, I feel they should have the facts before doing so.

The upbringing of a child has a lot to do with the outcome of a person in their adult life or society plays a huge part in it.

I am not saying the crime is right and because one person or another played a part in the crime, the person should not be punished.

A child that has been molested by her father allows the molestation because he is her father. She is taught from birth she is to obey her father, she has learned from other people that has been abused it is something that is hard to prove, and she is ashamed of what has happened to her.

You have a woman raped, she goes to the police, but rape is a hard crime to prosecute in most cases. She is left with not being raped once, but twice.
You have others that are raped and they don't report it because they were told that if they did, they would come back and kill them. This is the fear women are dealing with in their own way, but not understanding why it happened. If they go to the police, will something be done?
You have no idea what people thing of crimes that have been committed to them and if they reported it or if they didn't because either situation brings them more harm.

A person that is phisically abused as a child is the same in a lot of ways. Will they believe me? Will my parents tell them I am lying? Will they believe my parents over me? If they believe my parents over me then I know I will get another beating.

Kids are powerless and they are taught this from birth. It continues through out their adult life.

So this is not just about Richard. This is about power and money. This is about society labeling people because of a back ground they know nothing about the person they are labeling.

I never wanted my kids growing up and learning this, but they did. No matter what I did to prevent them from watching this or reading that, there has always been one or more other child that has read or watched what I taught my kids not to. It is a natural thing for most kids to talk about these things in school.

This is how a lot of the murderous sprees take place. Society has to change, the laws have to change, the laws have to be upheld, etc. and until they do, there are going to be more misguided people.

I started off posting believing you and I held different view points and in some small ways we do but I can now see that we also have a lot in common in the way we feel about the injustices when it comes to rape paedophilia and child abuse. It saddens me when an adult does an inexcusably vile crime because of the way they were raised and I find myself wishing they could have been helped when it would have mattered. One of my firm beliefs is that we should all feel responsible for the safety of children whether they are ours or not and that neighbours and friends have a responsibility to those in need. Noone should ignore this because they don't want to get involved, that is an offense as bad as the most heinous crimes. Still I never want Richard to walk as a free man because unfortunately once the damage is done and the murderous beast takes a hold there is little if no hope of rehabilitation and we need to then do damage control and try to ensure no more innocent victims are hurt and leave thier children to grow up scarred irrepairably as well!:shrug:
Sharlock

[sharlock]

sharlock, I feel so sorry for all of the people that lost loved ones by Richard, Ted B., Dahmer, etc. I don't feel he needs to walk out either.

I pray the death penalty does come to an end though. The hope for people as an adult is hard, but it is the children growing up with all of the vilonce that scares me.

There was another murder spree at a campus at Varginia Tech. They don't have all of the details yet, but as of right now they wonder what took so long for all of the campus to even know there was a shooting going on.

It is my undestanding that a lot of people could have been saved.

How many people kill with rage built up in them since they were young children? I truly di feel that a lot of them go after the ones or the ones they feel had a better life than what they did.

Good to know we want the same thing!

I was just watching the news about the shootings and they have now started to bring out writings from his English class with plays about a family that involves paedophilia, abuse and murder. Probably very telling but in any case such a monumental tragedy.:rose:

[sallynuts]

sharlock, What about the circumstances surrounding the people the murder?

Some people kill just because they want recognition of some sort.
Some kill because of being brain washed.
Some kill because of their up-brininging.
Some kill because they are so high on drugs.
Some kill because they are threatened.

There are so many dufferent reasons why people kill. People thing that the killing spree will stop if people were to get death row, but what this has taught some people, is that if they plead guilty to the crime, then they can get life.

There are so many people on death row because they did not commit to the crime in which they were charged, so they get death, but if they plead guilty to a crime they did not commit, then they get death. What happens to those that plead guilty to escape the death penalty?

They plead innocent because they can't understand what evidence the prosecutors have that would convict them. I do not feel evidence alone any more is what convicts most.

Most are so blind to the fact of the possible innocense in someone, they convict and leave it up to the defense to prove the person innocent with proff to help set a person free after conviction.

How many people have had to give their life up for 10 years or more because of lies, fabrication, no proof, no motive, and sometimes nothing at all.

Then you have people that move to a different state to kill so they can avoid the death penalty, olead guilty, and then get life with the possiblity of parole.

Richard Ramirez wanted to plead guilty, but with the advice of his attorney telling him he could win his case is why he went to trial. Do some of the defense attorneys help in the framing of their client? Can it be proven?

Richard was not brought up the way most would like to be. He don't blame anyone for what he did, but is it because he is in denial?

Did you ever have anyone shot to death just a few feet away from you? Did you have a dad beat you as opposed to spanking you? Was you able to just drop out of school at the age of 15 without an adult to try and talk you out of it?
These are just a few of the things that Richard has went through. Do you not feel one ounce of compassion for him for having been raised the way he was?

Nonsense!! He still new right from wrong.. he's not got some mental illness that takes away his ability to make choices. And that's what he did, he chose to kill those people, he didn't have too, he wanted to., why make excuses for him. He is what he is, a psychopath. And you have been fooled by him.

[sharlock]

Nonsense!! He still new right from wrong.. he's not got some mental illness that takes away his ability to make choices. And that's what he did, he chose to kill those people, he didn't have too, he wanted to., why make excuses for him. He is what he is, a psychopath. And you have been fooled by him.

He is definately one sick puppy! I cannot fathom why someone would marry him claiming to believe him to be innocent. I wonder if it is something that has to be said during an appelate process? Although if you allowed yourself to admit what this man did how could you justify marrying him? I think I might try and read up on women who marry killers because it just blows my mind.
Sharlock

[sharlock]

I am not defending what he did. I am defeniding what I think and feel about Richard.

I think the death oenalty is wrong, I think it is over populated, I feel it is no longer taken into consideration, I feel the jurors that hand down death, feel a sense of power, etc.

He has served his time for his crime.
I feel Richard is an honest enough person, that if he were asked if he were to be released into society, would he kill again? He would answer it. If he does think he will kill, then he would tell them just to give him life.

He is human and has made mistakes in the past, but he should be forgiven of these mistakes. He may not have been in total control of who he was back then for more than just one reason and he deserves to be heard and understood.

It is not for me to forgive Richard for what he did but I will say that if I was a parent of one of those girls who was raped and tortured to death I do not know if I could ever find it in my heart to forgive him for depriving me of my child, my loved one. He didn't forget to pay his taxes or hold up a convenience store he killed many innocent people who had a right to live thier lives and enrich others peoples lives, they had a right to suceed or fail they had a right to love and have children. These are the people who no longer have a voice and what has been taken from them is irrevocable and final. They will no longer laugh and they will no longer cry; how can you say he has done his time? How has he made up for the many lives he took? Perhaps he now regrets these vile and evil things he did but perhaps not; either way he should never be released from jail, he took life the most precious gift of all and now he should serve life.
It is no comparison though, he still has a life behind bars, he still has friends and enemies and even has had the chance to marry. His victims will never have that chance and for what? Look deep inside yourself and feel real empathy- not for Richard but for the grief of those who lost the people most important to them and who can never never forget how their loved one died crying, terrified and frightened begging for mercy and praying to god that their Daddy would save them. Do you get that? Can you feel that fear that you haven't experienced since you were a child that grips you so overwhelmingly that your heart seizes and you cannot catch your breath for the sobs, knowing that a monster is really in your closet and he is not going to give you mercy, he is not going to spare you and that your last moments on this earth are so shocking and brutal that you welcome death.
I tell you one person who cannot empathise for others but only himself, that is the reason he could stare chillingly into these desperate terrified eyes of someones child and kill them. Not everyone can do that- perhaps we are all capabe of killing someone in our own defense or more likely the defense of our child but it takes a special kind of psychopathical serial killer to do what he did. That makes him someone that I pray your child as I do my own never has the misfortune to come by. It also makes him a person that is capable of lying and telling you anyting he wants if it will serve his best interests and you trust that! If you must insist on looking into Richards eyes and seeing the broken little boy he must have been than do not forget to look into his eyes and see the sadistic murderer that boy became! For my own part though I choose to remember and honour his victims, may they RIP:rose:
Sharlock

[sharlock]

Discussing Richard's crimes is not what I am doing.

What exactly are you doing then Sassie? How can you say that Richard has served his time and should be allowed free and reference to other killers who have had shorter sentences as if this is some proof that he should only have had a short sentence as well, yet state that you do not consider his crimes when making these decisions. It appears(and please correct me if I am wrong because I do not wish to put words in your mouth and the purpose of this post is not to pick your argument apart but to clarify your position and how you are able to take such a stance) that you only take into consideration the fact that Richard was abused as a child and had used drugs and seem to believe that placed him in a position where he was unable then to make better choices as an adult.
That is simply not true we all have choices no matter how difficult our life has been and many people have faced the equivalent of the abuse Richard was subjected to and also the drug abuse, however these people are not serial killers who show no mercy. I said earlier that while I will always feel empathy for any child that was subjected to abuse but I think I then made it very clear that as an adult we are all responsible for the decisions we make and Richard Ramirez is accountable for his. I do not think the law stipulates at any point that all men are equal, I know that Richard is not equal to the innocent people he torture sodomized and murdered.


Some people that have been abused as a child don't have the chance at being a better adult and some do. I feel sorry for the one's that do not have the chance.


So do I!!!The NS victims did not have the chance 2 be a better adult or child and they were not given the chance to improve themselves as adults or his children victims never even got the chance 2 grow up except for those few who were tortured and molested and this was the legacy that Richard the misunderstood and unfairly judged inmate gave them to carry into their adult lives.
I have lived this kind of life and which is why it is easier for me to understand it better. Others have lived an abusive life, but they take their hate for their abuser and their hate for them is vented on others.

Sassie I believe you are a good person who is sincere in the messages you try to convey but unfortunatley those messages are mixed signals and it is impossible for someone to see where you truly stand on many of the points you make as they have varied from post to post. One thing that has been consisent is this quote

I am not defending what he did. I am defeniding what I think and feel about Richard.


in its many variations. I would like to understand how you came to the conclusion that Richard was not as bad as other serial killers, what was it that made you think and feel that others were wrong in there opinions including the facts of his crimes but you are not? Please don't think I'm trying to demean you in any way I enjoy posting with you but I do have very strong feelings in regards to serial killers and your opinions leave me feeling confused. IMO it is biased to look at Richard and discuss the validity of his jail sentence even going so far as to say that he has served his time and is a good man who should be realeased because there are other murderers that YOU believe have committed worse crimes who have not had as long sentences. How do you verify your oppinion of Richards personality?
Please tell me anything that has been expressed as a fact that you can show to be untrue> Do you know Richard or have you had discussions with him that you base your good character reference on? If so I would be interested to hear the details.

If you really want to write a story on Richard that will be credible you have to adjust your approach; in that you first have to understand the psyche of a pathological liar and then you need to research what type
of person is capable of the crimes Richard commited. Only after being fully aware of what he is capable of saying and doing can you be in a position where you can make a decision about whether he is reformed or not.
You absolutely cannot ignore his criminal status along with the murders he committed and say that you are using non-biased approach.


Richard should not have been condemed for his belief. We may not agree with it, but it was something he truly believed in. Was he being punished in part because of this?


This argument has no basis in reality as Richard was in fact convicted on his crimes which were more than sufficient for the penalty he received by law, nothing would have changed even if his religious preference had never been brought up!

In my opinion, there are far more despicable people that have committed murder, sent to prison, and released after serving a short time that I would be more concerned of as opposed to if Richard were to be released.
[/quote]

Yeah I mean why would you be concerned about a man who killed his victims without remorse or guilt and who had no real preference in age or sex as long as he was able to enjoy the act!? Sorry I forgot you do not take Richards crimes into consideration when you post! My mistake.:rolleyes:

He has served his time for his crime.
I feel Richard is an honest enough person, that if he were asked if he were to be released into society, would he kill again? He would answer it. If he does think he will kill, then he would tell them just to give him life.


:punch: OF COURSE HE WOULD NEVER LIE. THESE ARE THE QUOTES OF A MAN WHO IN YOUR OPPINION CAN BE RELIED ON WHEN IT COMES TO HIS WORD SO I SUGGEST YOU READ VERY CAREFULLY!

Quotes“It's nothing you'd understand, but I do have something to say. In fact, I have a lot to say, but now is not the time or place. I don't know why I'm wasting my time or breath. But what the hell? As for what is said of my life, there have been lies in the past and there will be lies in the future. I don't believe in the hypocritical, moralistic dogma of this so-called civilized society. I need not look beyond this room to see all the liars, haters, the killers, the crooks, the paranoid cowards--truly trematodes of the Earth, each one in his own legal profession. You maggots make me sick-- hypocrites one and all. And no one knows that better than those who kill for policy, clandestinely or openly, as do the governments of the world, which kill in the name of God and country or for whatever reason the deem appropriate. I don't need to hear all of society's rationalizations, I've heard them all before and the fact remains that what is, is. You don't understand me. You are not expected to. You are not capable of it. I am beyond your experience. I am beyond good and evil, Legions of the night--night breed--repeat not the errors of the Night Prowler and show no mercy. I will be avenged. Lucifer dwells within us all. That's it.„
—Richard Ramirez's statement before he received sentencing at his trial.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ramirez#_note-1)
"I love to kill people. I love to watch them die. I would shoot them in the head and they would wiggle and squirm all over the place, and then just stop. Or I would cut them with a knife and watch their faces turn real white. I love all that blood."

"Even psychopaths have emotions. Then again, maybe not."

"No big deal death always comes with the territory I'll see you in Disneyland"

"you maggots make me sick, i will be avenged. lucifer dwells within us all."

"we've all got the power in our hands to kill, but most people are afraid to use it. the ones who aren't afraid control life itself."
All quotes by Richard Ramirez

Sharlock

[One2Snoop]

Sassie you're certainly entitled to your opinion but I have to admit after reading this you really, really scare me, because this is just not right. RR raped, tortured and killed many women just like you and me. Honestly in your heart, (no offense) but how can you even think this is ok? Abused or not, this is not ok. :confused: RR has to pay for his crime/s.
Please try putting yourself in the victims shoes. I think you need to show just as much compassion for the families who've lost loved ones in his hands as you do for him. I think (I hope) once you can bring yourself to do that you might think differently. IMO, JMO

O2S

Sharlock, if Richard did to my family or friends, I do not know if I could ever forgive him either, but I don't look at his crimes when making my post.

We all have opinions and I can certainly give my opinion on what I feel about what he did or I can give my opinion on what I feel about right and wrong.

There are two different opinions. My personal opinion of Richard or any other serial killer, is they need to be treated the same. I feel life is better than death. Two wrongs, don't make a right.

Discussing Richard's crimes is not what I am doing.

If you are a reporter and you are to write a story on Richard or any other serial killer or a one time murderer, are you going to get facts about the person you are writing about? Or are you going to write about the truth as you know it? You can't be bias, you have got to be fair and put your personal feeling aside. This is not an easy thing to do, but if you put yourself as being the person you are writing about, then you know there is more about you then what others are saying.

I am no writer, but I have always wanted to be and I guess this is why I am able to do this. You also have to believe everyone is an equal. This is a mandated law.

Try to understand the crime, that was committed. Then try and understand behind the scenes of what led up to the killings.

Society, plays a big part in the outcome of a lot of people. I have never in all of my life do drugs, but I hear they are mind controllers. If Richard did not do these drugs, would he have killed? If he had a better upbringing, would he have done drugs? If he was taught differently, would he have quit school in the fifth grade?

Some people that have been abused as a child don't have the chance at being a better adult and some do. I feel sorry for the one's that do not have the chance.

I have lived this kind of life and which is why it is easier for me to understand it better. Others have lived an abusive life, but they take their hate for their abuser and their hate for them is vented on others.

[sharlock]

Sharlock, I have some mixed feelings myself about everything.

The things Richard said at trial or just before he was taken off was not the best way to get one's attention.

The jurors were not wrong in their decision. "you don't understand me" I think he was wanting someone to understand that what he did was wrong, but that he was also in need of help. I feel he was reaching out for help from someone he thought might have the power to help him.

I do not think he thought they should find him innocent. I think he had hoped for life without parole. He wanted to plead guilty to these crimes and settle for life without parole, but his attorney's told him not to.

Showing the symbol on the palm of his hand, was not him being a smart azz and acting as though he did not care. It was his way of expressing his feelings in anger so as not to shed tears. It would not have done him any good to cry and he felt this would have been giving them what they wanted.

I do not know Richard, but I have read a book about his life and in the book are interviews. These interviews mention some of what I wrote and this is how I draw my conclusions on him.

Other ways I draw my conclusions is because of his past. His father abused him and from my understanding, he beat the total crap out of him. Where was his mother during all of this? Was she herself abused? Was she herself afraid of something worse happening? Again, this is why I feel he said you don't understand me.

I do not want to write a story on Richard or anyone else. I would not even know what to write. He and all others have already went to trial for their crimes, therefore there is nothing to tell in a story and because I would want truth. Most of what I would write has already been written.

I explained my posting on Richard a few post back. I had just recently saw a program about him and which is why he was so fresh in my mind.
I could have posted about Jeffery Dahmer, but he is already dead. Which this is just another reason I am writing about Richard. He is not yet dead and my goal is to try and stop the death penalty.

Also, if one murder is set free because he is a changed man and he has served the time for his crime, then I fel Richard and everyone else in his position should also be allowed the same.

I watched another man last night get twenty five years for murder. This tells me he has the chance in twenty years or maybe even less time before he goes free.

What about the laws? The rights? All men are treated equal for their crime no matter what each persons crime is. When I say equal, if one man is going to conjugal visits, then it is only fair the one next to him get them also. Men in one prison get to get out and have a large open area, where the ones on death row are caged if they go out. The list goes on.

What are they teaching these people? Scott Peterson has probably never learned of this sort of treatment and perhaps it might be a good thing that he does know what it is like to be treated this way, but Richard has been treated this way all of his life and he is taught that no matter where he rest his head, there is no such thing as freedom.

The world should be a better place than what it is. Richard nor any other serial killer or just a one time killer and all of the other crime committers may not have contributed to this, but some don't even know how and the others took life for granted.

I guess the one thing this has all taught me is, that the world is getting closer to an end. God said, the more violence and destruction in the world, the closer the time he will judge.

Sassie I think I might have figured out where you are coming from; it seems to me that you are highly sensitive and empathetic person and that is why you seem to swing wildly from defending Richard when you are thinking about him as being an abused child now facing the death penalty but when forced to relate to his victims you seem to change your perspective. I think Richard is probably not the best person to use when trying to have the death penalty changed. I still cannot quite understand this thing about all men being treated equal. There are varying depths to depravity and evilness these murderers stoop to and I think that should be reflected in thier punishments and sentences. There are many varying degrees to murder and the worse it is the more books you will find on that individual.

[sharlock]

Sharlock, I have some mixed feelings myself about everything.

The things Richard said at trial or just before he was taken off was not the best way to get one's attention.

The jurors were not wrong in their decision. "you don't understand me" I think he was wanting someone to understand that what he did was wrong, but that he was also in need of help. I feel he was reaching out for help from someone he thought might have the power to help him.

I do not think he thought they should find him innocent. I think he had hoped for life without parole. He wanted to plead guilty to these crimes and settle for life without parole, but his attorney's told him not to.

Showing the symbol on the palm of his hand, was not him being a smart azz and acting as though he did not care. It was his way of expressing his feelings in anger so as not to shed tears. It would not have done him any good to cry and he felt this would have been giving them what they wanted.

I do not know Richard, but I have read a book about his life and in the book are interviews. These interviews mention some of what I wrote and this is how I draw my conclusions on him.

Other ways I draw my conclusions is because of his past. His father abused him and from my understanding, he beat the total crap out of him. Where was his mother during all of this? Was she herself abused? Was she herself afraid of something worse happening? Again, this is why I feel he said you don't understand me.

I do not want to write a story on Richard or anyone else. I would not even know what to write. He and all others have already went to trial for their crimes, therefore there is nothing to tell in a story and because I would want truth. Most of what I would write has already been written.

I explained my posting on Richard a few post back. I had just recently saw a program about him and which is why he was so fresh in my mind.
I could have posted about Jeffery Dahmer, but he is already dead. Which this is just another reason I am writing about Richard. He is not yet dead and my goal is to try and stop the death penalty.

Also, if one murder is set free because he is a changed man and he has served the time for his crime, then I fel Richard and everyone else in his position should also be allowed the same.

I watched another man last night get twenty five years for murder. This tells me he has the chance in twenty years or maybe even less time before he goes free.

What about the laws? The rights? All men are treated equal for their crime no matter what each persons crime is. When I say equal, if one man is going to conjugal visits, then it is only fair the one next to him get them also. Men in one prison get to get out and have a large open area, where the ones on death row are caged if they go out. The list goes on.

What are they teaching these people? Scott Peterson has probably never learned of this sort of treatment and perhaps it might be a good thing that he does know what it is like to be treated this way, but Richard has been treated this way all of his life and he is taught that no matter where he rest his head, there is no such thing as freedom.

The world should be a better place than what it is. Richard nor any other serial killer or just a one time killer and all of the other crime committers may not have contributed to this, but some don't even know how and the others took life for granted.

I guess the one thing this has all taught me is, that the world is getting closer to an end. God said, the more violence and destruction in the world, the closer the time he will judge.


Could someone tell me what the symbol was he showed on his palm, I hadn't beeen aware that he had done that.
Sharlock

[sharlock]

Could someone tell me what the symbol was he showed on his palm, I hadn't beeen aware that he had done that.
Sharlock

I just found a link to a site that has a very good account of Richard Ramirez crimes and describes the pentagram he had on his palm when shouting Hail Satan... Here is the link for anyone who is interested.

http://judey.dasmirnov.net/richard_ramirez.htm

Sharlock

[sharlock]

I don't like to think of the victims because I don't like seeing what they went through.

I have compared them with another experience and I do that I have told myself time and again, that I would never forgive this person. Then I can understand why they would never forgive him or any of the other victims forgive someone.

Sharlock, you are right! I have looked at the abusive part of his life, but I don't know anyone else on death row, but Scott and his case is still a long way from the needle.

I don't watch a whole lot of trials to even know who else is on death row and half of the people talked about, I have never even heard of.

I guess I will take Richard out of this and write of no death penalty.

I can relate to his abuse is another reason why I felt this way. However, I am not going to murder anyone.

Yes, I am very sympathetic towards these people. I know what they went through.So, I will put it this way.

Fact, Richard did kill these people, but what if there was someone other than Scott because he is in serious questioning, but everyone in the world knows another person was railroaded because of coinincidence and because one's history is taken into consideration. This is why I want there to be no death penalty.

Then would people be willing to try and stop the death penalty more?

In regards to the death penalty you could consider looking at inncoent people who have been sentenced to the death penalty to make your point. There are a number of people who fall into this category and while I am not saying these people were definately innocent once the sentence is imposed there is no way to bring them back to life if it is found there was an error in judgement. If they do kill an innocent person with the death penalty then it means that they are in fact guilty of murder, wouldn't that make them able to be sentenced to death themselves. This is only one aspect of the dangers and contradictions when it comes to the death penalty, here are a few names for you to research if you do want to look into it further:
Ronald Jones-dna tests indicate innocence
Williams and Jimerson were sentenced to death convicted of murder-rape in 1978 and were released after the female witness admitted to lying due to police pressure; dna evidence corroborated there innocence then the men who committed the crime actually confessed. Luckily this all came out before they were executed, some are not that lucky.
Robert Cantu was executed for the murder , attempted murder and robbery of 2 men. He was 17 at the time he was supposed to have comitted the offenses and sworn statement by his friend David Garza now show he may not have comitted the crime at all. The case was mainly built on the eye witness of one person. Garza now says he was with someone else when the crime was commited and that Cantu was not even present.
Sharlock

[doreenramirez55]

Where do you get your information? Richard was neither charged with nor convicted of killing any children.

[sharlock]

Where do you get your information? Richard was neither charged with nor convicted of killing any children.


It is not for me to forgive Richard for what he did but I will say that if I was a parent of one of those girls who was raped and tortured to death I do not know if I could ever find it in my heart to forgive him for depriving me of my child, my loved one.


I never said Richard was charged or convicted of killing any children but in fact all of his victims were somebodies child!!!!!

[QUOTE]
(http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/pressure_3.html)http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/pressure_3.html<A href="http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/pressure_3.html">


Killing Dayle Okazaki had not satisfied his need, so on the spur of the moment, he had attacked Tsia-Lian Yu. But murdering and assaulting her might not have done it for him because three days later he murdered an eight-year-old girl in Eagle Rock,

[sharlock]

Thanks sharlock! If you have a site on these people can you let me know. I will try and search on them.

http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/deathpen.html

http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/newab006/dProtess.html

http://standdown.typepad.com/weblog/ruben_cantu/index.html

These should give you a general idea but there are plenty more.
Sharlock

[doreenramirez55]

Sharlock:

You claim you never said Richard was convicted of killing children? Refer back to your 4/26 posts. Among other remarks designed to incite, you said "the NS victims never got the chance to be a better adult or child" and that "his children victims never even got the chance to grow up." You confirmed this stance in your 4/29 post in which you quoted a website's erroneous statement that he killed an eight-year-old girl in Eagle Rock. Untrue. You never said he was convicted of killing children? This is exactly what you are saying.

Your comment about the victims being "someone's child" smacks of being a desperate defense of an incorrect statement of the facts (as YOU see them).

You try further to justify your inaccuracies by quoting sensationalistic websites on which misinformation is continually picked up from one to another. Just because you read it on the Internet doesn't make it true. You seem intelligent enough to recognize that.

The facts of the trial record remain: Richard was not charged with nor convicted of homicides of children.

[sharlock]

Sharlock:

You claim you never said Richard was convicted of killing children? Refer back to your 4/26 posts. Among other remarks designed to incite, you said "the NS victims never got the chance to be a better adult or child" and that "his children victims never even got the chance to grow up." You confirmed this stance in your 4/29 post in which you quoted a website's erroneous statement that he killed an eight-year-old girl in Eagle Rock. Untrue. You never said he was convicted of killing children? This is exactly what you are saying.

Your comment about the victims being "someone's child" smacks of being a desperate defense of an incorrect statement of the facts (as YOU see them).

You try further to justify your inaccuracies by quoting sensationalistic websites on which misinformation is continually picked up from one to another. Just because you read it on the Internet doesn't make it true. You seem intelligent enough to recognize that.

The facts of the trial record remain: Richard was not charged with nor convicted of homicides of children.

Doreen,
Sorry for the delay in my response but things have been quite hectic here at the moment.
It seems to me though that you can only claim that I am lying if I actually said he was charged and convicted which I can assure you I did not. That does not mean however that I believe that he could not have and did not commit crimes against children including murder (and the sensationalist web sites such as Crime Library also apparently believe the same). I can certainly understand how this is the one point you want to take issue with as he wasn't convicted of killing a child but certainly he has been thought responsible for more than one childs death. Of course by child I am now referring to a person under the age of 18 but don't for one minute think that whenever I referred to a persons child I was making that connection because I wasn't. Actually it was in reference to my deep dismay for the loss of a child being a mother myself and by that I mean any child regardless of age.
I am not trying to argue the validity of his trial here though I am open to discussion on any topic you may want to open.
I have a question of you though and that is to ask if you believe that Richard is innocent of the crimes he has been convicted with and if not what do you think occured?
Sharlock

[Livia]

Sassie, I have to ask: If God acted, as you say, to keep Richard alive...where was He when Richard was murdering all those innocent victims?? Didn't they deserve to live even more than Richard--or at least as much??

And Mrs. Richard Ramirez--what about that little boy your husband raped while his mother was tied up in another room, listening in fear and horror to her child's screams of pain and terror? No, he didn't kill that child--very kind of him I must say :(--he just slapped him and told him to shut up!!!!!!!!

Will that child now be justified to become a serial killer like your husband--because of the totally unjustified torture your loving husband inflicted on him?!

And I agree with Sharlock--God only knows how many awful crimes Ramirez committed (against children too) that we'll never know about. He's a monster and he's capable of anything--except, probably, doing any good to anyone.

[Livia]

P.S. I can think of one very good reason why the likes of Ramirez shouldn't be allowed conjugal visits: because we don't need serial killers breeding!!!!!!!!!

[sharlock]

Richard apparently felt that satan was protecting him and that didn't work out to well either!
Sharlock

[Livia]

Richard apparently felt that satan was protecting him and that didn't work out to well either!
Sharlock

LOL--I totally agree! :)

What a shame--"The Devil made me do it and then he let me down!" haha! :lol:

[sharlock]

doreen, I thought of another thing. The jurors did not hear everything in court about Richard. This has always upset me, but one of the jurors said, that had they heard during the trial what they heard after, they would not have given him death. Could this be used to help him get life?

Also, another thing I feel is sad is when Richard went to his brothers across town is when the police learned of who he was. Them thinking he is still in town posted police outside the bus station and was given orders to kill Richrd. This is so wrong of the police for giving this order.

This tells me God played a part in keeping Richard alive.

It is funny and I am not making fun of the police, but I can only imagine the police hoping to be the first person to arrest Richard or to put a bullet in him.
The funny thing is, not a one of them had this chance. The citizens on the streets are the ones that captured Richard and this is what saved his life.

Please show a link that police gave ordrers to kill Richard rather than arrest him? It would be much more likely that all officers were warned that Richard was highly dangerous and his crimes had been escalating to such an extent that anyone approaching him with the intent to arrest could fimd themselves at risk if proper precautions were not taken. If however there was an order to kill then it would be documented and I'd like to know where that was documented.
Doreen if you feel able to contribute to the conversations when you believe someone else has made a mistake then I am curious as to why you don't feel able to reply to the few questions that were asked of you?
Sharlock

[doreenramirez55]

Sharlock, I responded to your posts because in them, you implied Richard was a convicted child killer. I set the record straight on that matter, which was my only intent.
I have said repeatedly and will say again here: It is not incumbent upon me, as Richard's wife, to retry his case for him on Internet message boards. That is what the appellate process is for.
And as for answering questions: Questions are one thing, insults are another. You, Livia and others like you have no compunction about coming to a message board about someone you so clearly hate and hurl insults at me and others who don't share your opinions. If you were I, would you waste your breath fighting a dead-end argument with people whose opinions matter as little to me as mine to them? As I said, my only intent was to clear up the misconception that Richard was convicted of killing children. If I were to cling to my keyboard as rabidly as Richard's "haters" and respond to every insult leveled at me and my husband, I wouldn't have time to do anything else.

[doreenramirez55]

Sassie: You are correct about the issue with the jurors. Several of them said that had they been presented with any mitigating evidence during the penalty phase, they would have been inclined to vote for LWOP (life without parole) as opposed to the death penalty. That is one of Richard's major appellate issues.

[sharlock]

Sharlock, I responded to your posts because in them, you implied Richard was a convicted child killer. I set the record straight on that matter, which was my only intent.
I have said repeatedly and will say again here: It is not incumbent upon me, as Richard's wife, to retry his case for him on Internet message boards. That is what the appellate process is for.
And as for answering questions: Questions are one thing, insults are another. You, Livia and others like you have no compunction about coming to a message board about someone you so clearly hate and hurl insults at me and others who don't share your opinions. If you were I, would you waste your breath fighting a dead-end argument with people whose opinions matter as little to me as mine to them? As I said, my only intent was to clear up the misconception that Richard was convicted of killing children. If I were to cling to my keyboard as rabidly as Richard's "haters" and respond to every insult leveled at me and my husband, I wouldn't have time to do anything else.

Firstly, thankyou Sassie for the info on where to find that stuff about the police orders. When I asked for a link I probably should have made it clear that while I doubt that was said it doesn't mean it wasn't said so I wanted to know where to look for it and what you gave me will help me with that.

Secondly to Doreen:I appreciate that you couldn't reply to every post about Richard but since you had joined this discussion and didn't do so anonomously thought you wanted to make your feelings known. I don't expect you to defend Richard which is why I didn't ask for an explanation if you felt he was innocent. I did however ask what you thought if you on the other hand thought he was guilty. Coming online to discuss a serial killer doesn't make me a spiteful, hateful person and while I myself do not understand what would attract you or anyone to a a person on deathrow I do know that I have not hurled abuse at you or any other poster that didn't agree with me. Most people myself included come to this board so we can talk to people with varying oppinions and on occasion my oppinions have been changed due to a particularly inciteful comment from someone else. I guess that the only people who could have any kind of impact on my thought process here are those that really do know Richard and are not just basing their oppinions on a feeling they have. Regardless on what you think I was not trying to converse with you so that I could engage in a condescending or arrogant diatribe, I actually was really curious but I guess you have made your feelings clear and it seems you do not want to discuss it so bad luck for me. Also just to clarify I felt that because I had made no reference to him being charged or convicted that meant I did not suggest it; but I can see your reasoning in that like myself when I first read all the references to his killing children had assumed it meant they used it in his trial and only found out later that it wasn't so just so everyone is clear on what I meant refer to my previous post which I have pasted below because that is what I was trying to convey not that he had actually been charged.


Doreen,
Sorry for the delay in my response but things have been quite hectic here at the moment.
It seems to me though that you can only claim that I am lying if I actually said he was charged and convicted which I can assure you I did not. That does not mean however that I believe that he could not have and did not commit crimes against children including murder (and the sensationalist web sites such as Crime Library also apparently believe the same). I can certainly understand how this is the one point you want to take issue with as he wasn't convicted of killing a child but certainly he has been thought responsible for more than one childs death. Of course by child I am now referring to a person under the age of 18 but don't for one minute think that whenever I referred to a persons child I was making that connection because I wasn't. Actually it was in reference to my deep dismay for the loss of a child being a mother myself and by that I mean any child regardless of age.
I am not trying to argue the validity of his trial here though I am open to discussion on any topic you may want to open.
I have a question of you though and that is to ask if you believe that Richard is innocent of the crimes he has been convicted with and if not what do you think occured?


Sharlock

[Livia]

I am devastated to think that poor maltreated Richard would laugh at what I say about him. I seriously doubt if he cares what I, or anyone else, thinks about him. His actions have made that clear enough. Sociopaths couldn't care less what others think of them.

I do wonder, tho, why a man charged (and convicted) of the hideous crimes of which Ramirez was convicted, would find any of this discussion humorous. Does he think raping, torturing, terrorizing and murdering innocent victims is funny? Well yes, come to think of it, he probably does find it amusing. Again--typical of a sociopath. I'm not a sociopath, so I fail to see the humor in his little adventures. My bad, huh?

And why commend Doreen for "being able to look them straight on" when she hasn't even answered my question--which is based on facts, BTW, not my alleged hostility?

I ask again:

What is one supposed to think of a man who brutally rapes a little boy while his mother lies helplessly bound in the next room?

What does Mrs. Richard Ramirez, or any of Richard's defenders, think of this little episode?

No, I don't expect an answer to be forthcoming--just more whines that I am guilty of "hating" poor Richard and "disrespecting" his wife-in-name-only.

The real "hater" here is Richard Ramirez--he hates the whole world so thoroughly that he tried to destroy as many innocent lives as possible.

All I have done is call him what he is--a monster and a sociopath.

If people can't face the truth, it really isn't my problem. It's theirs.

[dallasvic]

This guy is pure EVIL.:mad: When he was in the courtroom they zoomed in n him and you could look in his eyes and there was nothing there.Just pitch black.EVIL When he smiled it was a evil smerk. :eek:
I really feel for his family. I can't imangie how they feel.

[sharlock]

Sharlock, I don't think you was calling me a liar. I understand completely why you would ask for a link.

You seem to get upset when people defend Richard. I understand why some feel the way they do, but have you ever watched the bum deal Richard was given?
I know, what about the victims and their families, but if you really think about it, what did they convict Richard on, other than the dact that a third person said the jewelry that was found come from Richard.
They have no witnesses. (not that I know of)
They do not have him confessing to the crimes.
The description that was given by some can't really be proof considering that there are a lot of people with curly hair.
I watched I think all there is on him and read all there is on him and I saw nothing to actually prove he did this.
I did not see the trial, but I saw where he went to trial and what was said on the stories I watched.
In his interview with Phillip Carlo, I never read anywhere, that he confessed.
He was asked about serial killers, but this does not mean he was confessing to a crime. This only means he gave his opinion of a serial killer just as any other person gives their opinion.

I am not saying he did not commit the crimes, but I do question why the hate from people seems to be so personal?

If you are a family member, I could understand this, but you never said you was and I could be wrong, but I doubt a family member could stomach the good some might say about Richard.

If I know of someone to be guilty of such a horrible crime, I will state my peace about it and carry on. There is not even a discussion with some. There are insults directed towards Richard, but he is not on here to read them so they are not hurting him and even if he were on here, I doubt anything one said against him, would crush him. Given the staements he made in court and the ones you yourself posted about him, does not seem like a man that would worry of what was being said. He would probably laugh not so much at you, but at livia.

The only one I could see hurting is his wife and I seriously doubt she hurts by it. I guarantee she has heard far more disgusting things said of him.

I believe in showing respect for others. You nor anyone else might not understand her marrying him, but I respect her. This had to be very critical for her because we both know just how rude the public and the media probably was to her.

I commend you doreen for being able to look them straight on.

Sassy there were many witnesses at Richards trials and some of Richards victims identified him and gave great detail in thier account of the crimes he committed against them. These witnesses were not victims of a mugging they spent a lot of time with thier tormentor and that is why it was nearly impossible for the defense to show that they had thier identifications wrong. Ballistic evdence traced one of the guns used in the murders to a man who said he had gotten the gun from Richard Ramirez. Yes there was jewellery from some of the victims found but thier was also a survivor of Richards attack that identified a peice of jewellery found in Richards' sisters home as well as evidence in the form of photos submitted to show that some appliances from one of his murder victims was in Richards possession.
It was while all the evidence was being presented against him that Richard was reported to have changed his mind about putting on a defense and yeah he very well could have been railroaded into that by his lawyers, no doubt that if he had pleaded guilty there is a good chance he would not be sitting on deathrow today. I myself have never advocated for the death penalty so I would have rather seen him receive a life sentence.
It amuses me that when people defend Richard they cite his appalling upbringing as reason to excuse the worst of his offenses but then say they can find nothing to suggest that Richard is guilty.If he is not guilty then why bring up his abuse, shouldn't you be focusing on proving the prosecutors wrong. BTW I get no more upset by this topic than you do Sassie, it seems strange to me that I should have to defend my beliefs when you have come online and posted yours. I don't agree that only a family member would have reason to want to defend the victims of Richard it is not like they can defend themselves.
Also if their is good to be said about Richard I have not read it on this forum perhaps you might explain this goodness that I have missed
Sharlock

[Livia]

I agree that he's evil, dallasvic. No human being with an ounce of feeling for others could do what he did. Still, it doesn't surprise me that evil people do evil things--that's the nature of evil.

What DOES appall me is how many women fought over the "privilege" of getting Ramirez's attention, being his "girlfriend", even marrying him--if you can call it a real marriage. Under the law if a marriage isn't consummated, it isn't a "done deal"--it can be annulled.

But that's beside the point. What I cannot fathom is why any woman would be "attracted" to this monster in the first place. I know it happens--every murderer has his groupies. But I will never ever understand it--and it's horrifying to think that a serial killer has a "fan club"!

Can't these pathetic women find "real" men to marry? Or is it something in them that draws them to the most evil people in society? I couldn't stand being in the same room as someone who's committed the atrocities that Ramirez has.

I don't see most of Richard's defenders wasting any sympathy on his victims. Instead they choose to attack people who are offended by his actions (imagine that!!) and call them "hate-mongers".

If you want to see a real "hate-monger"---take a look at Richard Ramirez. THAT is the face of hatred.

[Livia]

Well, it might help to clarify things if we first define our terms. Here are the official criteria for a diagnosis of a sociopath (aka psychopath, aka dyssocial personality disorder), now generally known as "Antisocial Personality Disorder"--this comes from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) of Mental Disorders, 4th Edition, Revised Text:

"301.7 Antisocial Personality Disorder
A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, and indicated by three (or more) of the following:
(1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
(2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability or aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
(5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others
(6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
(7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

B. The individual is at least age 18 years.

C. There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.

D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode."

Those are just the bare-bones outline of a sociopath. Here's something a bit more relevant, also from the DSM-IV-TR:

"Individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder frequently lack empathy and tend to be callous, cynical, and contemptuous of the feelings, rights, and sufferings of others. They may have an inflated and arrogant self-appraisal and may be excessively opinionated, self-assured, or cocky. They may display a glib, superficial charm and can be quite voluble and verbally facile."

And this:

"The pattern of antisocial behavior continues into adulthood. Individuals with APD fail to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behavior. They may repeatedly perform acts that are grounds for arrest (whether they are arrested or not), such as destroying property, harassing others, stealing, or pursuing illegal occupations. Persons with this disorder disregard the wishes, rights, or feelings of others. They are frequently deceitful and manipulative in order to gain personal power or pleasure. They may repeatedly lie, use an alias, con others, or malinger.....Individuals with APD tend to be irritable and aggressive and may get into repeated fights or commit acts of physical assault (including spouse beating or child beating)....Individuals with APD show little remorse for the consequences of their acts. They may be indifferent to, or provide a superficial rationalization for having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from someone (e.g. "life's unfair", "losers deserve to lose", or "he had it coming anyway".) These individuals may blame the victims for being foolish, helpless, or deserving their fate; they may minimize the harmful consequences of their actions; or they may simply indicate complete indifference. They generally fail to compensate or make amends for their behavior. They may believe that everyone is out to "help number one" and that one should stop at nothing to avoid being pushed around."

Sound like anyone we know?? :rolleyes:

As for my question to Mrs. Ramirez (I asked it since she is so emphatic that her Richard has never killed a child--apparently adolescents and adults are "fair game") I wondered if this abuse of a child--while not amounting to murder--would change her view of her hubby:

During one of his home invasions, Ramirez not only tied up and raped the wife (*yawn* standard business for him) but then went into her little son's bedroom and raped him. The mother was still tied up and unable to help her son: she was forced to lie there helplessly listening to her child scream and beg for help...at which point Ramirez slapped the child and ordered him to "shut up!". Now I admit--he didn't murder this child. Then again, it is hardly admirable behavior, now is it?

Does Mrs. Ramirez really draw that big a distinction between killing a child and viciously raping a little boy???

BTW--as I recall, he murdered the father/husband.

If these are not the acts of a sociopath, please explain to me in plain English just what Ramirez WAS doing?

[doreenramirez55]

Sharlock: While I recognize your attempts to conduct reasonable conversations, any such attempts (especially about a sensitive subject matter) usually degenerate rapidly into a namecalling free-for-all. Neither "side" wins. What you are mistaking as my reticence to discuss my personal feelings is actually the weariness of constantly having to defend those personal feelings, especially to people who are predisposed to condemning me for them. I have stood beside Richard for almost 22 years, so my feelings should be self-evident.

Sassie: I appreciate your compassionate sentiments. Clearly you are a very decent, openminded individual, and I hope you will not allow the negativity to dissuade you from being a good person.

[Livia]

Sassie, you are very welcome! :) I think a lot of people don't really understand what a sociopath is: it does help having a clear description, doesn't it? The info I gave came from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) which is generally referred to as the "Bible" of the psychiatric profession.

I also agree with you that everyone is human. I'm not suggesting that even the likes of Ramirez should be treated as brutally as he treated his victims: that is morally wrong in my view, and furthermore would only lower us to his level. What I am saying is that I am appalled that there are people (not you!!) who actually seem to admire this creature, in spite of all the horrors he inflicted on innocent victims. And of course the survivors all are still suffering--no one just "gets over" a trauma like that.

The very thought that Ramirez might ever get out of prison--while granted it's very very unlikely--scares me half to death. Sociopaths don't change, because they have no conscience. With most people, I do believe in the chance for redemption, but I was always taught that for redemption to take place, the person first must feel true remorse for his/her actions. I just don't see how it's possible for a sociopath to feel true remorse. And I have never seen or heard anything to indicate remorse on Ramirez's part.

It's interesting that Mrs. Ramirez still has not responded to my question. But I forget: she's bored by it all, apparently, after all these years of defending her hubby. I suggest she might as well get used to it, since the defense will never be able to rest in his case.

It's also interesting that my enumeration of just a few of poor Richard's crimes makes me a "negative" person.

But maybe I am. I "just say no" to murder, rape, and torture.

Silly, intolerant me.

[doreenramirez55]

Sarcasm...from someone who hates Richard but hangs all over a message board about him like wet laundry... Gee, THAT's never happened before. I'm going to try very hard not to cry into my pillow tonight.

[sincere]

I corresponded with Richard for a couple years. It was quite interesting but he famously writes very short letters filled with more questions than answers. He recommended some literature in the shape of Plato and Nietzsche (he of course used the expression that he was "beyond good and evil" at his trial - the title of a Nietzsche book).

[sharlock]

I corresponded with Richard for a couple years. It was quite interesting but he famously writes very short letters filled with more questions than answers. He recommended some literature in the shape of Plato and Nietzsche (he of course used the expression that he was "beyond good and evil" at his trial - the title of a Nietzsche book).
I have never read Nietzsche to know exactly what this expression was meant to infer but I suspect he believes he is above it all and above the common man. Certainly explains how he could take life so callously and cruelly.
Sharlock

[sharlock]

I corresponded with Richard for a couple years. It was quite interesting but he famously writes very short letters filled with more questions than answers. He recommended some literature in the shape of Plato and Nietzsche (he of course used the expression that he was "beyond good and evil" at his trial - the title of a Nietzsche book).
BTW nice to see a new face around here sincere! I would be interested to hear what you did discuss with Richard.
Sharlock:seeya:

[sharlock]

What the heck, has Richard already been put to death and no one wants to talk about it?

What are you talking about Sassie? As far as I am aware Richard still retains his pulse so I'm wondering what you are referring to?
Sharlock

[sharlock]

I have asked doreen questions and the new comer about Richard. No one answers any. Why?
Imo oppinion when you first start posting here it is a bit of a labrynth between threads and is time consuming because you are trying to catchup with all of the threads that interest you so I would say that is why Sincere hasn't replied, but I can help some.
Plato is an ancient greek philosopher. He was an amazing man and his writings on philosophy are studied to this day. He was also a great mathmetician and started the first institution of higher learning in the Western world.Most of his work is profound.
I am not familiar with with Nietzches quotes but I do know that he is a german philosopher who wrote on many topics religion(was quite anti christian but wasn't necessarily against Jesus more Christians themselves for their hypocritical nature as he saw it). After reading Sinceres post I went and looked up the late period writing called "Beyond Good and Evil". I have a quote below describing the work.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ
Therein he identifies the qualities of genuine philosophers: imagination, self-assertion, danger, originality and the "creation of values" - all else he considers incidental. Continuing from this he contests some key pre-suppositions such as "self-consciousness", "knowledge", "truth" and "free will" as used by some of the great representatives of the philosophic tradition. Instead of these traditional analyses, which Nietzsche paints as insufficient, he offers the will to power as an explanatory device, being part of his "perspective of life" which he regards as "beyond good and evil", denying a universal morality for all human beings. The (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ)master and slave moralities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-Slave_Morality) feature prominently as Nietzsche re-evaluates deeply-held (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ)humanistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism) beliefs, portraying even domination, appropriation and injury to the weak as not universally objectionable. A tone of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ)moral relativism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism) and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ)perspectivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspectivism) dominates throughout.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#The_Anti-christ)
Here are some examples of his quotes that you've probably heard before.
What does not destroy me, makes me strong. [Or, What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.].
Given a big enough why people can bear almost any how.
Author: Friedrich Neitzche (http://www.worldofquotes.com/author/Friedrich-Neitzche/1/index.html)


About Doreen not replying well you will have to ask her.
Sharlock

[sincere]

Richard is alive and kicking. He can drag out his appeals and arguments of incapable lawyers for a good few years yet.

Plato? Yes he told me to read that less than 2 years ago. He has not changed.

Do you cage a lion for years and he then no longer wants to eat you given a chance?

Poor Doreen, I do feel for her but she must realise Ramirez used her for publicity and money. Think I am wrong? I can name at least 10 females that he writes to now all the time and flirts, asks them for photos of their legs etc, always asking for help finding asian women to write to - does that sound like the actions of a reformed and happily married man? Not really. He told me more, but that can come later.

[sharlock]

Richard is alive and kicking. He can drag out his appeals and arguments of incapable lawyers for a good few years yet.

Plato? Yes he told me to read that less than 2 years ago. He has not changed.

Do you cage a lion for years and he then no longer wants to eat you given a chance?

Poor Doreen, I do feel for her but she must realise Ramirez used her for publicity and money. Think I am wrong? I can name at least 10 females that he writes to now all the time and flirts, asks them for photos of their legs etc, always asking for help finding asian women to write to - does that sound like the actions of a reformed and happily married man? Not really. He told me more, but that can come later.

I couldn't agree more. Articles imply and Doreen suggests (but will not actually say) that she believes Richard is innocent of the crimes. I could be wrong there though because she would not be admitting she believes him guilty while there are appeals ongoing.
Sassie Sincere has opened a new thread that includes photos of his correspondence with many different murderers including Ramirez and includes a really intelligent and inciteful article he wrote. Worth having a look at.
Sharlock

[dallasvic]

I couldn't agree more. Articles imply and Doreen suggests (but will not actually say) that she believes Richard is innocent of the crimes. I could be wrong there though because she would not be admitting she believes him guilty while there are appeals ongoing.
Sassie Sincere has opened a new thread that includes photos of his correspondence with many different murderers including Ramirez and includes a really intelligent and inciteful article he wrote. Worth having a look at.
Sharlock

I totally agree, having another thread on this subject is great. There are so many people in prison that have contact via e-mail or writing letters and so have fan clubs.Men especially attract woman, some who are vulnerable, for support, money etc. Alot are able to have access to computers.
This goes for any criminal no matter what the crime is.I also know someone that went to prison and she had many men she wrote to and they all sent her money in the promise when she got out she would be together with them, but she already has a man waiting for her that visited every time it was visiting day. I am sure the one they write to believe it is on the up and up.
And I think that some of the one that write and fall in love while in prison have the intention of being with one person when the do get out.
Criminals are con-artist also, so I am sure that play a big part in what they are doing in some cases at least.
Richard does need help IMO I do not think he should ever be let out of prison.

[sharlock]

Where is this site?
Sorry Sassie I missed your post somehow. He's started a thread in this forum CL it's in the (SerialKillers/MassMurderers)My collection of letters and art from prisoner correspondence.
Sharlock

[sincere]

Sassie, the reason some letters are sold/bought is because they are rare - a lot of people simply do not reply - especially high profile prisoners. I wrote to Richard 3 times before he replied to me.

I dont care what the postman thinks - its none of his business. Only on a few occasions have I actually used false names and addresses to write to certain prisoners who might have leaked what I wrote to press or other inmates, so it was necessary to take such precautions but other than those few times I write as myself and my family know what I do and they are fine with it, its not an obsession thing or groupie thing as some might see it - its a criminal psychology interest in me that drives me to the source - reading books on criminals will give you a biased view of the facts - writing to the perpetrator is a direct link to understanding the true motives of the person and the crime.

[sharlock]

Still here Sassie just got a few issues at the moment.
I sent you a PM.
Sharlock

[sincere]

Here is a letter he sent to one of his many female correspondents.
This is typical of his letters. Yes this is since he got married.


http://members.aol.com/hayct3/rram1.jpg

[sincere]

he wrote simple usually 2 sided letters, more asking questions about my life, upbringing, interests - didnt give much away about himself, but the letter I posted, apparently he was really into her and she let him down by going on talk shows about him.

[sharlock]

he wrote simple usually 2 sided letters, more asking questions about my life, upbringing, interests - didnt give much away about himself, but the letter I posted, apparently he was really into her and she let him down by going on talk shows about him.

I guess you can add yourself to that list now Sincere as soon as Doreen lets him know what's on here. I had to laugh when I saw that typo hype for hip how appropriate. The way I see it though is if these girls are silly enough to crave the attention of a serial killer then so be it. I don't think there would be even one guy in jail that would say no to letters like these so I can't balme him but I do think you need to be careful when you then go and upset that person after disclosing all your personal details. Richard wasn't just some drug-crazed kid I honestly believe that a lot of thought went into these murders and I don't get the impression he is dumb just cruel. I'm not sure I would put to much faith in the bars keeping me safe.

I noticed that a photo from behind wasn't quite enough but that he seemed to need the feet included to. Perhaps this is a fetish? I wonder if it played a part in any of his crimes?
Sharlock

[sincere]

I guess you can add yourself to that list now Sincere as soon as Doreen lets him know what's on here. I had to laugh when I saw that typo hype for hip how appropriate. The way I see it though is if these girls are silly enough to crave the attention of a serial killer then so be it. I don't think there would be even one guy in jail that would say no to letters like these so I can't balme him but I do think you need to be careful when you then go and upset that person after disclosing all your personal details. Richard wasn't just some drug-crazed kid I honestly believe that a lot of thought went into these murders and I don't get the impression he is dumb just cruel. I'm not sure I would put to much faith in the bars keeping me safe.

I noticed that a photo from behind wasn't quite enough but that he seemed to need the feet included to. Perhaps this is a fetish? I wonder if it played a part in any of his crimes?
Sharlock

Part of a list? I did not use my real name in my letters to Ramirez so there is no way Doreen can tell Richard who I was in my letters to him or whether I was a female or male correspondent. She might also like to know that I have an envelope from Richard that has Doreens address scrubbed out and mine written in, so much devotion to his wife that he decided to use an envelope for me rather than his wife.
Yes legs and feet are important to him.

[sharlock]

Sharlock, I heard a many of women that wrote to Richard. First, I feel doreen already knows of this, but what I don't understand, is why so many people want to throw it in her face.
I can only guess that some of these people are jealous because they might have wanted to be his wife.

I feel some has to do with wanting attention and others simply because they are trying to understand what makes these people tick.
I also believe there are people that connect with Richard and truly want to be his friend.

I still do not understand why people want to buy these letters for though. I understand they might be rare, but they are someone else's letters.
If he were a musician, an artist, a singer, etc. I might understand it more, but Richard is not any of these people. So why would his letters be considered rare and hard to get?
I don't think people buy these letters because they are rare and hard to get. They simply have a fascination with the workings of a serial killer and examples of personal correspondence from a serial killer has value on many levels; it could simply provide shock value ;it could be used to assist with analysis of the workings of a serial killer and so forth. I don't findit difficult to understand that these letters can be bought and sold however I think their value would depend on the relationship the correspondant had developed with Richard. You certainly wouldn't pay as much for a letter that had no depth to it all but Sinceres' letters from what I have seen have a lot of interesting things in them.
I have to agree with you Sincere, Richard sure doesn't seem to have all that much devotion to his wife.
Sharlock

[sincere]

that was on purpose because what he wrote is between me and him.

[sharlock]

that was on purpose because what he wrote is between me and him.
I thought that was your reasoning and respect that.
The content I was referring to was the way these guys were moved to send examples of their artwork and stuff. It seems in you they found someone they could relate to.

[sincere]

not wanting to sound like some goth kid but I have had low points in my life and bad ideas in my head and that was at the time I was writing the bulk of these people, they maybe related to my despair, I was technically in the same headspace as them in terms of seeing no future and therfore no action had any meaningful consequence, which is what breeds murder.

[dallasvic]

I did a search on Richard and found this site. www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/ww1/grise.html (http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/ww1/grise.html) This a essay written by a girl. She followed the like of serial killer Richard Ramirez including his childhood years, crime spree, trial and supporter. It is a good read!

[dallasvic]

At age 12 Richards cousin came home from the war. He was a vet and a ex-Green Beret. He showed Richard photos of rape and killing while they set around smoking pot. I am sure this was a big influence on him since his cousin was his Hero. Sad isn't it. I do believe the is why alot of our young people today do not have regard to life.So must killing and not enough love and support.

[dallasvic]

This is a very interesting read. I honestly do feel Richard needed help in his early years.

When you have no one to turn to except the ones that you don't need to, then it is from these people how you learn of more violence. Richard's cousin was not the right person for him to look up to, but he did because he had no one else.
It was put in his head to kill the enemies. To him, the people he killed were the enemies.

Richard was not an educated person. He quit school in the 5th grade. He didn't have any friends or girlfriends and always saw himself as a loner. He was made fun of by his peers and nothing seemed to be done about this.
This treatment combined with the treatment he received at home was all looked at as being the same kind of treatment.

Richard stated he was to blame for his actions and while this is not pleading guilty for the crimes, it is easily inferred to take it this way. He did not blame his mother, father, or his cousin because they did not tell him to do these things, but he is not looking at the mentality aspect of it all.

It is hard for anyone person to single out what causes a person to commit an act of violence and I do agree with what this person says in her story about the ingredients in a persons brain, but I also feel there is a lack of others or too much of others. She didn't feel that because his brothers and sisters lived in the same house hold, this could not have been the problem, but perhaps his siblings did not have a loss of these ingredients. Perhaps they was able to see things in a different light. Perhaps they didn't suffer the same abuse as Richard at home or at school. Perhaps they had other people to help them deal with the abuse in their home.
No one knows for certain, but those that have had personal experience can come close to knowing and combined with the studying of the Doctors, might help others that could be faced with this same problem.

BTW, I like your avitar.

THANKS Sassie,
It my backyard . I call it GODS country. LOL

Richard fits the category of a serial killer. Like you said he was a loner,was made fun of by peers,very bad childhood,repeatedly witnessed violence, rape murder etc.He was by all mean means mental ill and needed meds I am sure. They can't be helped if they don't ask for it.

[dallasvic]

Your right, they can't get help if they do not ask for it. However, there are some people that do not know help is available. They don't know who to turn to and if they can even trust them.

The help that is available these days, was not made available in those days.
We now have agencies where a person can go and talk about there problems and they try to get them help, but back then if a child went to get help, their parents were immediaely notified. It was unheard of for most to believe that a parent can do something like this to a child and worse the other parent sit back and watch.
There have been so many teens lie about abuse to try and get their way and this ruined it for all of the teens that actually tried.

Then again, Richard might have believed this abuse was normal.

Without going in to detail, I know exactly what it is like to grow up in this type of environment. Most teachers back then ignored what they thought might be a problem going on with a child, but now it is over rated with teachers that act as though they are trained therapist.

I never spoke of my abuse until I was 19 or 20 and then when I mentioned it, I was told that it was in the past.
This was true and I knew nothing could be done for what happened to me in the past, but I never spoke of it and just wanted one time to be heard.

Then as an adult I was abused and I felt this is the way things were suppose to be. I never spoke of it to anyone. Once again I was ashamed for something I did not do and I kept it to myself.

As time went on, Inside I didn't think things were right, but on the outside, I felt it was. I put up with it and accepted it because I felt I had no other choice.

I think sometimes that my kids is what saved me from becoming a person other than who I am now. I have very high standards and for this, I do not feel I would have became a murderer or any sort of criminal, but I was determined never to let my kids go through what I did.
My school days were nothing the way they are now. So many kids are just mean and it is the way they are brought up and like you said they think that is the way things are, not realizing that they life is wrong and others are right. very confusing for a kid growing up .They need good role models.

[sharlock]

My school days were nothing the way they are now. So many kids are just mean and it is the way they are brought up and like you said they think that is the way things are, not realizing that they life is wrong and others are right. very confusing for a kid growing up .They need good role models.
I know that I live in Australia so things MIGHT be different in America but there is still no help out there counselling wise. Just talk to any recovering addict and you'll find that the only assistance they got in that arena comes from sources such as NA or AA which is really inadequate especially if you believe addictions are people self medicating.

[Livia]

Sarcasm...from someone who hates Richard but hangs all over a message board about him like wet laundry... Gee, THAT's never happened before. I'm going to try very hard not to cry into my pillow tonight.

Umm--is this barb directed at my humble self, Doreen? Did I perhaps hit a nerve?

If you're suggesting that I am somehow "infatuated" with your hubby--no fear, no need for tears. You are more than welcome to him--however, I'm surprised you feel more threatened by me than by the ladies he is courting via mail--while he's still married to you. And of course still no answer to my question! :biggrin:

I do have another question, and I ask you in all sincerity, Doreen: Do you really believe that Richard is innocent of these crimes?

Sassie: Of course you are welcome to use the DSM definition of a psychopath/sociopath/Antisocial Personality Disorder on your website--or anywhere else you wish! :seeya: And I am terribly sorry to hear that you have suffered so much abuse in your life, you clearly are a very kind and loving person, I commend you for not letting the abuse turn you into a bitter and angry person. :rose: And I totally agree about the injustice of the sentencing in our prison system: it truly isn't fair for two people to commit the same crime, but one get a far harsher sentence just because the crimes were committed in two different states. That is not right!! And I too cannot understand staying faithful to a husband who clearly feels no loyalty to his wife (re: the letters such as the one Sincere was kind enough to share with us. Just more of Richard's typical sociopathic manipulation!!)

Sadly I don't think that any treatment works for sociopaths. I only wish something did! At present, I guess the best society can hope for is to find small children who are being abused, bullied, etc and try to remove them from these horrible "homes" and place them somewhere they can find real love and kindness--maybe then they wouldn't grow up full of rage and hatred towards society. But it appears that any intervention that has any chance of working needs to begin very early in life.

Why some abused children grow up to be like Ramirez, and other don't, is a mystery. I mean, Sassie, you were abused, yet you have become a good and kind person who truly cares about others. I wonder if sociopaths aren't a combination of "nature" and "nurture": they not only are usually abused and bullied as children, but also perhaps their brains are "wired" differently than most people's.

I was watching a documentary on A&E the other night, and the famous forensic psychiatrist Dr. Park Dietz was interviewing a notorious Mob "hitman" who is known as the "Iceman" for his cold-blooded murders. At the end, the Iceman asked Dietz what he thought about him, and Dietz told him frankly that he would diagnose him with two personality disorders: (1) Antisocial Personality Disorder (which I described earlier)--I think this diagnosis also fits Ramirez and (2) Paranoid Personality Disorder--a person who is not psychotic, but is still pathologically suspicious of other people, full of distrust and animosity towards a world they feel is both treacherous and dangerous.

Dietz said that the current psychiatric opinions about things like Antisocial Personality Disorder suggest that it takes the two things I mentioned to turn a person into a sociopath: first is an inborn temperament (being fearless, needing lots of stimulation in their environment, being great risk-takers, etc) and being brought up in an environment that is cold, hostile, neglectful and/or abusive.

Obviously we can't change a person's inborn temperament, but maybe we could try harder as a society to protect children who are being exposed to neglect and/or abuse---both for their own sakes, and for society as a whole.

[sharlock]

you know Livia I think that what gets me more than anything else is that the greater percentage of the population has suffered abuse neglect and pain. Right there you make a choice will I hurt others as much as I hurt or will I try and stop that pain? Am I going to be an infectious disease of neurosis and pain or am I going to make this world a better place than the one I grew up with? I think Richard would benefit from sitting down with an open mind and hearing about someone who took a different path to him but maybe not he would probably view them as weak which is okay because that is the way I view him.

[sharlock]

Livia, Thanks! I do not see how anyone can think he did not commit these crimes. I don't remember it all off the top of my head, but in his interview with Carlos, he said he don't blame anyone but himself for what he did. This right here tells you he is admitting it.

He also said he liked death. I don't know how he meant this, but how can anyone like death.

Livia, the one person I have to thank for giving me the strenght to become the person I am now, is God.

When all of this happened to me and I was rushed to a bigger hospital registering me in, there was a man in an all white suit and shoes and was bald. He came over to me and touched me in a few places and then told me, I would be alright. I started to cry because I was happy and felt this must have realy been a good Doctor to know I would be all right. I then asked him, why me? He told me God had something special in store for me. I could not tell him I blamed God for what has happened to me.

I was in there for quite a while. I never did see this Doctor ever again. This always bothered me because I felt a secureness and wondered how he could never come to see me again. I still was not comfortable in praying to God. I felt the same thing would happen to me all over again.

When I was 24, I was raped. I struggled this not only because I was raped, but also because I became pregnant. Everyone felt I should abort the baby and I made several appointments to have this done, but when it come time for my appointment, I would call and cancel with some excuse. I made my last one because I was told if I cancel that time, I would have to carry the baby full term.
For the first time, since I was 11, I laid beside my son and said a prayer. I told him I wanted my baby regardless of how he was conceived. It is my little baby and told him if you are really real, then I need an answer from you. What should I do?

I had to go to the hospital to get my records of when the Doctor said I became pregnant. I didn't go until 11:00 p.m. I was the saddest person in the world and wasn't sure I could kill my baby.

On the way home I was crying and then on the right side of me a strong gush of wind entered my body. No one else would have felt this. It didn't scare me because it was like a peaceful something entering my body. It stopped in the center and a deep voice said, keep your baby and then it exited out the left side of my body. All at once I became happy, the sadness everything bad feeling was gone. From that day forward, I stopped looking at the ground when walking. I looked straight on and faced everyone.

I told people of this and some try to tell me it was wishful thinking, but it wasn't. God answered my prayer and I would never doubt him ever again.

In looking back of when I was in the hospital, I am thinking the man dressed in all white, was a angel. I was still in the waiting room while my mom registered me. To this day, I can close my eyes and still see him. He gave me hope, but now I don't understand why God sent an angel, but I was happy for this.

I don't know how my life would be if I was not raped. If I was not raped, I would never have prayed to God. I was filled with hate and anger for all I had to endure in my life. I hated seeing the perfect couple, the perfect child, the perfect grades, etc. The anger built up in me as each day would go by, but after God answered me, I was able to see everything in a different light.

Who knows, he could have played a part in my getting pregnant. My son is what helped me to deal with the rape. He is now 19 and I don't regret and I never look back.
Thankyou for sharing your story Sassie you are very brave!

[dallasvic]

yes I second that Sassie way to go girl

[Livia]

you know Livia I think that what gets me more than anything else is that the greater percentage of the population has suffered abuse neglect and pain. Right there you make a choice will I hurt others as much as I hurt or will I try and stop that pain? Am I going to be an infectious disease of neurosis and pain or am I going to make this world a better place than the one I grew up with? I think Richard would benefit from sitting down with an open mind and hearing about someone who took a different path to him but maybe not he would probably view them as weak which is okay because that is the way I view him.

Thanks, Sharlock, I totally agree!!

And (((Sassie))): You are one remarkable lady!!! You have gone thru so much horror in your life, and yet you are such a loving, caring person. I don't think that what happened to you was "wishful thinking" either; I think that God does indeed have a special plan for you, and He must be very, very proud of the person you have become!!

And I am so glad that your son has become a great comfort to you. I bet he thanks God every day too for being lucky enough to have such a wonderful, loving mom!!

These are for you and your son: :rose: :rose:

:seeya:

Hugs,
Patti

[sharlock]

yes you did.point proven. nice backpeddling tho.


wow. you sure are foaming at the mouth at doreen arent you? god damn.
first you make ignorant assumptions about a case you seem to know nothing about,then endlessly try to provoke doreen into a e-fight when she proves you wrong.her reasons for marrying richard are her own. i have never met the man myself.but i have read quite a bit about him,and he was not always the "monster" you seem to insist he is.he was also someones child,brother and friend. richard was not convicted of murdering any children. this is a fact. and before you start throwing the gauntlet at me,read up a bit more on richard.his background and trial.you will learn something. i am not justifying him or his actions in any way.just facts.who knows why he did what he did.but please dont shun someone for trying to see the best in him.that is the highest form of compassion and love in human nature.and as far as that letter goes.. and speculating on his faithfullness to his wife....it does not even look like richards handwriting.he often has other inmates write letters for him. the man gets hundreds every week. that is all

Here Kitty kitty,
In fact I don not have an issue with Dorren and I think if you look further than your selected quotes you would see that also you might even realise that Doreen knew that my issue was with Richard killing all of those incent victims in such a gruesome and horrendous fashion but not with her. It is my opinion that Richard is a psychopath and more so not surprisingly I believe that a lot of his relationships throughout his adult life were more likely a result of what he could get than what he could give, although I admit I could be mistaken and perhaps he truly cares for Doreen! By god he should because she is a unique individual that could risk her own life and those she knows for the sake of a relationship. I don't think I would want to break up with a convicted serial killer still perhaps that will never become an issue for them.
Still who the hell are you? I am not completely naive to the case as you would like to believe and I would like to hear the credentials you hold to speak so authoratarian like. My opinions are not unique either. Richard showed little mercy to the majority of his victims. Are you are mother? I can honestly tell you that my son doesn't stop being my child when he turns 18 and noone in this world has the right to take him from me the way Richard took MANY!!!! You can sit there and believe yourself worthy and saintlike for being able to forgive Richard for brutally assaulting and killing these humans if you want but it makes not one iota of difference about the compassion I feel for his victims, his victims children, and his victims parents and friends who had there loved one ripped from thier lives before their time and have then had to live with the knowledge that thier loved one probably died begging for mercy and pleading for someone to help them. How can people like yourself write with such assurity about the righteousness of your position in defending Richard while ignoring the real victims? There are many abused children Richard was not alone in having a hard life! His choices as an adult are his alone and he SHOULD be held accountable for them.
Doreen obviously loves this man and I have no issues with love, it does not harm anyone and it does heal. I had and have no need to question Doreens motives for wanting to be with him many women choose partners that others would not deem suitable but who am I to judge her? I also don't expect her to admit the man she loves was guilty of these crimes why should she? She has to have made peace with that thought already in my mind and I doubt she would go public to say he did it and was sorry while he has been trying to avoid the death penalty by pleading his innocence.
You however are the one who has made ignorant assumptions when stating that you believe I have it in for Doreen. Richard is lucky to have her. That does not mean however that I have to forgive Richard. It also doesn't mean that I would be incapable of forgiving him IF he could actually admit to his crimes knowing full well the price for him doing so and stand accountable to those who lost thier children lovers fathers mothers and friends. Don't try and vent your petty frustrations on me Kitty, perhaps your time would be better spent examining your own motives.
Sharlock

[diamond d]

I still can not believe that that mob on hand that day could not kill Richard, the devil surely does protect its own

[sharlock]

nice rant.however,i clearly stated that i was not defending richard.as well said i was just stating facts. richard did not kill any children as you said he did.
end of conversation.
Nice try Kitty, it is not a FACT that Richard did not kill or rape any children because he was not convicted of it at trial and you accused me of having said that he was convicted and charged of killing children which I can assure you I did not. I have however said that in my opinion he could very well be responsible for the deaths of some young children which is a suspicion that police also had.
Sincere posted a letter that he believed was from Richard and as he had corresponded with Richard for some years I can be reasonably confident that he too knew what Richards writing looked like and Sincere portrayed this letter as having been written by Richard. If you are calling Sincere a liar than that would be an issue better addressed to him or left alone entirely.
I have never tried to involve Doreen in an e-fight of any sort but it seems that I have really gotten under your skin. You have made a lot of baseless accusations in you post directed to me so I can only assume that you are not adverse in trying to incite a bit of flaming yourself although I hope that is not the case. It is not a requirement that you have to agree with me about anything but there is no need to attack me directly instead of debating those points you disagree with; many posters have mastered this art already! End of conversation?:confused: :tongue:

[sharlock]

ok heres a list things richard could have been involved in but was never proven..
shootings bambis mother
the lindbergh baby kidnapping
deciding pluto was no longer a planet
ripping tags off mattresses
tipping less than 15% at restaurants
being in league with voldemort
ignoring the condition of the new orleans levees
paying too much for auto insurance before calling geico
having weapons of mass destruction
and faking crop circles in the english countryside.

you seem to be clinging to the possibility like grim death no matter how many times i point out he was neither convicted of rape or murder of a child. and dont insinuate i know nothing about richard when you didnt even know the common knowledge of him flashing a pentagram at his trial.i figured even those who knew little about the case would know at least that..
nice signature by the way. is unconditional love reserved just a select few?

Unlike any of the above examples Richard was considered as a suspect by police in the murder and rape of some children so it is not an out there belief that I hold. One that I am entitled to BTW. You seem to be just making things up as you go along , exactly where did I say that you know nothing about Richard? The only ignorance I suggested was your opinion that I wanted to start an efight with Doreen! What you figure and what you don't is of no concern to me Kitty. I don't claim to be a saint either and I have just a bit of trouble thinking lovingly towards Richard when I imagine the men and women he killed so viciously and the families he affected so irrevocably. I think however that I mentioned I might look kinder on Richard if he could face up to what he has done knowing the consequences of doing so. I don't agree with the death penalty; still if he was man enough to face his crimes knowing his punishment would be no worse than what he has inflicted on many innocent people then I could be convinced that he wasn't a remorseless psychopath who manipulates people into feeling sorry for him when he has done nothing to deserve forgiveness. I don't suppose Richard cares what I think of him one way or the other but it sure seems to bother you. Hey is it a fact that if you are not convicted of a crime you have been suspected of perpetrating that you in fact did not commit that crime? He is a proven serial killer which adds a bit of weight to my suspicions you know. Why is it that you think because you have told me that he wasn't convicted of it that I should simply decide you must be right and let it go? I have not filled my posts in this thread trying to convince others that I am right in my opinion because it is that, an opinion, but it is not a ridiculous one. Many police actually agree with me so I am not going to lose sleep because you don't. If this is now the only thing you have left to try and have a go at me with then I feel good because perhaps you now realise you were wrong when you said I had it in for Doreen or that I was jumping to conclusions when I seriously looked at the letter presented to me by a poster who has shown that he did converse with Richard for years. I am still puzzled though why you decided to be so aggresive towards me over any other poster on this thread? But then again I don't really care to much.

[Charon]

Yo

Since when did the going rate for tips at restuarants went up to 15%?????

:cuss:

[sharlock]

Yo

Since when did the going rate for tips at restuarants went up to 15%?????

:cuss:
LOL Thanks for the reality check Charon. Got sucked into that one didn't I!:D

[Charon]

Nos vemos. Just as long as you have a smashing time.

[sallynuts]

:beer: here to you sharlock... i agreed with all that you said..

:beer: to you too Charon.. lol

:flamemad: to kitty kat... the man does not deserve to take another breathe, after all the suffering he has caused..

JMO


'all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing'
(not on our watch though)...

[scubadvr99]

ITA Sharlock!!!

LOL!!!! charon :lol:

I also agree that there are probably crimes committed by him that we will never know about. Not that I am saying pin all the unsolved on him, but I certainly can imagine that there are those that are unsolved that he did.

MOO

[sharlock]

sorry...i skipped from the beginning to the end of this post because it took so long. i just dont have the patience.but im glad it doesnt bother you that much that you write a 20 minute long rant in response.
Actually it didn't take me more thn 6 mins! But don't worry I totally understand how you could be to impatient to read what amounts to about 50secs in reading time to peruse. BTW this post took me approx 25secs is that more to your liking?:tongue:

[Charon]

What IS it with you Yanks?

Now I understand the Iraq war much better. Bush and Sadam propably met on a message board like this and from there on it went south. Iraq is bombed to hell, Sadam is dead and Bush... well, let's not go there, yes?

Why don't you two take up Paintball? :no:

[diamond d]

Charon, please correct your tagline to; Morte prima di disonore

[diamond d]

As far as I'm concern the scum bag can sit and rot in jail until they carry his bones out in a garbage can. Death would be too easy for such a devil

[BebeJeebies]

tnx god he's still alive!!!
and his wife isnt the only one who's going to commit suicide if richard dies...
richard is the most beautiful man in this world...
ljubim ga na wso moè!!
moj mali srèek
**mwwa**

Um... :lol:

I couldn't think of a better post to quote for my first message on these boards. :seeya:

Just... wow.

Can anyone translate what she said at the end? I can't even discern what language that is. :shrug:

[diamond d]

Um... :lol:

I couldn't think of a better post to quote for my first message on these boards. :seeya:

Just... wow.

Can anyone translate what she said at the end? I can't even discern what language that is. :shrug:

Excellent first quote jeebies... The translation goes something like this...

I am a delusional nut case,
take me seriously and your nuttier than a pecan pie

This dialect comes from an unspecified region within an undetermined Slovenian region.

[sallynuts]

Excellent first quote jeebies... The translation goes something like this...

I am a delusional nut case,
take me seriously and your nuttier than a pecan pie

This dialect comes from an unspecified region within an undetermined Slovenian region.

:beer: oh,,, that's good,,,, well done,,,, i take a bow,,,,

[sallynuts]

its not up to you or me to decide wether he deserves to live or die.

:flamemad: why?,, so who is it up to then?????


"Conscience: What hurts when everything else feels so good."

[diamond d]

:beer: oh,,, that's good,,,, well done,,,, i take a bow,,,,

..........

[dallasvic]

:flamemad: In my eyes i think he should be turned over to the families of the victims and let them decide.:cuss:

[diamond d]

:flamemad: In my eyes i think he should be turned over to the families of the victims and let them decide.:cuss:

Vigilantism is alive and well

[sharlock]

an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
I agree Kitty, I disagree with capital punishment, although I would certainly be in need of support if someone hurt my child in these ways and know I would want to kill them, I hope that in the end I could control myself and stay true to my beleifs.

[TuscanDreams]

What I don't get is why someone married that freak, Ramirez, while he is on death row. :shrug:

[I'mSun]

i dont understand why someone married george w bush.
but we all have differant standards of evil i supposeROFLMAO!!! Now that is funny!

[sallynuts]

an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind

AND YOU A MORON...

:lol:

[sallynuts]

quoting Mahatma Gandhi makes me a moron?
tell me.. if you are such a supporter of revenge and justice...how do you handle your daily life? suppose some ass cuts you off on the freeway and then gives you the finger... do you chase him down and kick his ass?
i doubt it.
i find it funny that people like yourself shake their heads at the violence on the 6 o'clock news and say how the world is going to hell.... then clap their hands at the thought of people "getting what they deserve"

if you want to start with the name calling,then you most likely are a coward.

You are comparing road rage with what RR did? Plus, it is those people on the 6 o'clock news who are causing the destruction and inflicting violence on innocent people who should get what they deserve... you make no sense to me..:shrug:

[BebeJeebies]

Excellent first quote jeebies... The translation goes something like this...

I am a delusional nut case,
take me seriously and your nuttier than a pecan pie

This dialect comes from an unspecified region within an undetermined Slovenian region.

I love it! Thanks for the translation. :beer:

[BebeJeebies]

anger escalates.
anger and hatred cause more anger and hatred.nothing good comes of it.
that is my point.sorry if you dont understand.

Sounds like something I heard in my Dharma class. :) I agree with you 100% Kitty.

[Elemanzer]

Doreen... did you know richard before we went to jail or did you meet up with him after?

[REALGUIDO]

Realitively Early?...25 years plus? I dont think so. Anyone with half a brain can gather the information on the progress of his H.C. Appeal from the internet...I had posted the site many years ago.......and if I am not mistaken the H.C. is the last one...or correct me if I am wrong?....And who needs an execution date anyways....I understand he has some "health issues" he is dealing with? I know....it is from some rumor some prison guard started, right? Isnt that what you posted? Was he not removed from SQ to go to an undisclosed hospital in 05 for breathing problems?...no "rumor" reported fact... See SFGate... Oh and thank everyone who can see right through the smoke screen of deception provided by someone who married a convicted, self confessed satanic serial killer.....and then say that he is innocent...Thanks for thinking of the victims instead of glamorizing the sick, depraved low lifes.... Have a Nice Day!!!
The truth will set you free!!!


I can see why no one has posted here about Richard since March 2006--quite a bit of misinformation floating around here. For the record, my husband does not have an execution date; he is still at a relatively early stage of the appellate process. Secondly, Richard and I are very much together. Rumors generally start when people have no access to the facts. Thank you to the people who have been supportive to Richard over the years.

[REALGUIDO]

"...struggling to breathe...." As he should be....Must be sad to go out so slow and painfully....Thanks for the nice post....I keep getting this image of a fish out of water gasping to breathe....I will sleep well tonight...Thanks again Paul!!!

Richard Ramirez is definitely the ugliest serial killer who ever lived--a publisher of a Hispanic Newspaper in California stated that he should be executed just on the fact that he was too ugly to live---Ramirez right now is suffering from emphysema and lung cancer and doesn't have long to live as per SQV who is a poster on another board who visits her brother on Death Row frequently--Ramirez is struggling to breathe as we speak and thank God for that--I believe he also had most of his teeth torn out many years go in prison because,with his abnormal fear of dentists, he had just let his teeth rot away--During his infamous murders,Ramirez was in constant pain from his rotten smelly teeth--hopefully this rabid dog killer will soon drop dead and that now appears to be happening

[REALGUIDO]

Remember GUIDO?

Shes the real Mrs. Ramirez! Ive been on message boards for 6 years dealing with Ramirez. Doreen is thick skinned and posts logically. personally, weve talked a litle here and there. Im sure you remember GUIDO right Doreen? I have a couple of letters from RR.

Anyhow, my writing sks days are over! Got too dark to continue. Didnt feel i was doing the morally correct thing by befreinding killers.

Doreen, who do you think guido actually was?

[REALGUIDO]

Opponent? All I am doing is spreading the truth...all you try and do is muddy it up with minutia....When have you ever seen my veins? And if you are 98 percent why not say it for the record? Maybe because you havent got a clue who I am....And if you do I EMPLORE you to say it...Anything other then my name or your guess is just another attempt to cover up your own ignorance...Now post my name...I bet you are WAY off...Anyways, How is RR's lung capacity these days....I mean how is the Old Weezer?...Still spitting up blood? Hope he can stay alive long enough to get executed, but hey, I will be happy either way, just as long as he is dead...Anyways Have a Nice Holiday Season...must get Lonely around Christmas, I mean he CANT celebrate Christmas if he "Hails Satan" that would be a conflict of interest...Not to mention those cold nights in the car in the parking lot of San Quentin...How Romantic....HAHAHA

Abigailjazz, thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I miss the good old days--Guido was far from a worthy opponent, but he was always good for a chuckle when his veins started protruding! I'm approximately 98% sure who he was, but I wouldn't want to say for the record. Take care, ok?

[REALGUIDO]

Not a work of Fiction, PLAIN FACT...I really AM a family member. You beliefs are correct...

OK, doreen! People just speculated that guido was a work of fiction, yet i believe he really was a family member.

i sware tho, all these years i cant believe how you put up with these vicious groupies! I assume dozens of woman fall in love with our hubby each year---month lol...now you have bad-tracy on the forums lol...it never ends! polly ramirez, betty ramirez...it goes on and on.

yep, the good old days, when skc was fun and full of crazy people! Ah, memories. enjoy your day DR!

anyone intersted in what were talking about can type in serial killer central on google. they have a forum and many ppl on there write sks...i did for awhile but it felt morally wrong for me. check it out tho...good convo about true crime etc.

[REALGUIDO]

Who have you "narrowed" it down to? Humor me...And I have plenty of room to talk....This didnt concern you until you thrust yourself into the "limelight" I didnt ask to be here, your husband was the reason I became involved....LONG BEFORE YOU CAME SNIFFING AROUND for your 15 minutes of fame...faded quick didnt it?.... I cant even leave for moment without you spouting off all of your "poppycock."

SEE YOU IN DISNEYLAD...RR hahahaha


Hey, Abigailjazz! I see I'm not the only one wide awake at the moment!

Yes, I agree--definitely a family member. And if it's the one I had it narrowed down to, Guido had no room to talk. SKC was a lot of fun in those days--such a varied and lively bunch. As for the women, it did get ugly when it needn't have.

I completely understand your need to cease correspondence. You have to do what feels right for you, and I commend you for still being interested in conversing with anyone in this kind of forum. You should drop into SKC-- you might be amused!

Take care!

[REALGUIDO]

RR confessed to the police who arrested him...He has also made several "incriminating" remakes in some of his "interviews." You should check your information...or at least share TRUE information...HAVE A NICE DAY <cough, cough cough, gurrgle gurrgle> hahaha

Richard has never confessed. There are so many websites out there, each one trying to outdo the other for shock value, so please do not believe everything you read on the internet. Thank you for asking so respectfully.

[REALGUIDO]

Nice post....

I'm sorry but being from Australia (we have no death penalty ) my view is that a person who inflicts sooooo much pain on not only his victims but his victims families; he gave up his rights when he decided that he had the right to deprive others of theirs. I don't agree with the death penalty because when it comes down to it with all the appeals it costs more to keep a serial killer till he is killed then it does to provide for a lifer and I guess I don't want to be a killer myself; but I definately think he deserves no conjugal rights he deserves no respect and while some people can find it in themselves to want to be attached to such a vile creature it does not change what they are and that is a person who thought so little of others that they could torture degrade and kill another human being believing that was their right. It was not his right and he did not get sentenced for being an innocent party although I am aware that this can happen. This man did these horrific things and of that there is no doubt!!!!! What is wrong with you people wouldn't your time be better spent trying to help those children deprived of their mothers than worrying about a person who never thought of anyone but themself when it most mattered???:shrug:
Sharlock

RIP to all the victims who deserved better than what they got:rose: :rose:

PS Hail Satan????? I could think of better things to do with my time!!

[REALGUIDO]

Several charges against RR WERE dropped, some dealing with the children he assaulted....HE wasnt charged or convicted because it would have been harder to convict him because the testimonies were from children, and even if he wasnt charged wiuth them what he did and was chargewd with and convicted of is plenty sick enough....just because he wasnt charged or "caught" for it, doesnt mean he didnt do it....Nice Try Doreen...USE FACTS....He wasnt "FORMALLY" charged....let me use your words...."the facts...blah blah blah"

Sharlock:

You claim you never said Richard was convicted of killing children? Refer back to your 4/26 posts. Among other remarks designed to incite, you said "the NS victims never got the chance to be a better adult or child" and that "his children victims never even got the chance to grow up." You confirmed this stance in your 4/29 post in which you quoted a website's erroneous statement that he killed an eight-year-old girl in Eagle Rock. Untrue. You never said he was convicted of killing children? This is exactly what you are saying.

Your comment about the victims being "someone's child" smacks of being a desperate defense of an incorrect statement of the facts (as YOU see them).

You try further to justify your inaccuracies by quoting sensationalistic websites on which misinformation is continually picked up from one to another. Just because you read it on the Internet doesn't make it true. You seem intelligent enough to recognize that.

The facts of the trial record remain: Richard was not charged with nor convicted of homicides of children.

[REALGUIDO]

Very well stated....I have been trying to point out these facts for years...Thanks!!!

I am devastated to think that poor maltreated Richard would laugh at what I say about him. I seriously doubt if he cares what I, or anyone else, thinks about him. His actions have made that clear enough. Sociopaths couldn't care less what others think of them.

I do wonder, tho, why a man charged (and convicted) of the hideous crimes of which Ramirez was convicted, would find any of this discussion humorous. Does he think raping, torturing, terrorizing and murdering innocent victims is funny? Well yes, come to think of it, he probably does find it amusing. Again--typical of a sociopath. I'm not a sociopath, so I fail to see the humor in his little adventures. My bad, huh?

And why commend Doreen for "being able to look them straight on" when she hasn't even answered my question--which is based on facts, BTW, not my alleged hostility?

I ask again:

What is one supposed to think of a man who brutally rapes a little boy while his mother lies helplessly bound in the next room?

What does Mrs. Richard Ramirez, or any of Richard's defenders, think of this little episode?

No, I don't expect an answer to be forthcoming--just more whines that I am guilty of "hating" poor Richard and "disrespecting" his wife-in-name-only.

The real "hater" here is Richard Ramirez--he hates the whole world so thoroughly that he tried to destroy as many innocent lives as possible.

All I have done is call him what he is--a monster and a sociopath.

If people can't face the truth, it really isn't my problem. It's theirs.

[REALGUIDO]

Some people hang around message boards like this to dispell the MYTHS purported by those who are "blind" to reality....

Sarcasm...from someone who hates Richard but hangs all over a message board about him like wet laundry... Gee, THAT's never happened before. I'm going to try very hard not to cry into my pillow tonight.

[sharlock]

Doreen... did you know richard before we went to jail or did you meet up with him after?
Welcome Elemanzer and GUIDO,
You might be in for a long wait if you are hoping for a direct reply to your question so I thought I would provide a link to an interview with Doreen where she discusses her decision to marry Richard and how she came to meet him.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9707/28/nightstalker.wife/
Hope this is of some help.

[REALGUIDO]

Hey Doreen...OPEN YOUR EYES AND READ THIS LETTER!!!!

Poor Innocent little Richard hahaha...I ALOMST feel sorry for you....Ah NAhhh just kidding hahahaha

Here is a letter he sent to one of his many female correspondents.
This is typical of his letters. Yes this is since he got married.


http://members.aol.com/hayct3/rram1.jpg

[REALGUIDO]

RR was not FORMALLY charged with any crimes concerning children, the term FORMALLY is the key here...he was initially charged with several counts involving children which were later dropped. But just because they were dropped doesnt mean he didnt do them. May YOU should get YOUR facts straight about a case that you DEFINITLY know nothing about...Thanks anyways though and Have a Nice Day!!!

yes you did.point proven. nice backpeddling tho.


wow. you sure are foaming at the mouth at doreen arent you? god damn.
first you make ignorant assumptions about a case you seem to know nothing about,then endlessly try to provoke doreen into a e-fight when she proves you wrong.her reasons for marrying richard are her own. i have never met the man myself.but i have read quite a bit about him,and he was not always the "monster" you seem to insist he is.he was also someones child,brother and friend. richard was not convicted of murdering any children. this is a fact. and before you start throwing the gauntlet at me,read up a bit more on richard.his background and trial.you will learn something. i am not justifying him or his actions in any way.just facts.who knows why he did what he did.but please dont shun someone for trying to see the best in him.that is the highest form of compassion and love in human nature.and as far as that letter goes.. and speculating on his faithfullness to his wife....it does not even look like richards handwriting.he often has other inmates write letters for him. the man gets hundreds every week. that is all

[REALGUIDO]

The information that you posted doesnt even have the correct victims names let alone much else....If you are going to repost something...PLEASE check its validity...MY GOD!!! You seem to be the one with the "misconceptions." RESEARCH PLEASE!!!

where did you read that richard raped children?i need to see this.this seems to be a common misconception.



On June 28, 1984, Ramirez claimed his first known victim. Ramirez entered in to the home of Glassell Park resident Jennie Vincow, age 79, through an opened window. According to Philip Carlo's book, 'The Night Stalker,' he became angry after not finding anything of value to steal, and began stabbing the sleeping Vincow, eventually slitting her throat. The act of killing aroused him sexually, and he had relations with the corpse before leaving.

On March 17, 1985, Ramirez attacked 22-year-old Maria Hernandez outside her condo. He shot her, kicked her out of the way, and headed into her condo. Inside was roommate Dayle Okazaki, age 34, whom Ramirez immediately shot and killed. Hernandez survived. The bullet had ricocheted off the keys she held in her hands, as she lifted them to protect herself. Within an hour of killing Okazaki, Ramirez struck again in Monterey Park. He jumped 30-year-old Tsai-Lian Yu and pulled her out of her car onto the road. He shot several bullets into her and fled. A policeman found her still breathing, but she died before the ambulance arrived. The two attacks occurring on the same day bolstered media attention, and in turn caused panic and fear among the public. The news media dubbed the attacker, who was described as having long curly hair, bulging eyes and wide-spaced rotting teeth, "The Walk-in Killer" and "The Valley Intruder".

On March 27, Ramirez shot Vincent Zazarra, age 64, and his wife Maxine, age 44. Mrs. Zazzara's body was mutilated with several stab wounds and a T-carving on her left breast, and her eyes were gouged out. The autopsy determined that the mutilations were post-mortem. Ramirez left footprints in the flower beds, which the police photographed and cast. This was virtually the only evidence that the police had at the time. Bullets found at the scene were matched to those found at previous attacks, and the police realized a serial killer was on the loose. Vincent and Maxine's bodies were discovered in their Whittier home by their son, Peter.

By this time, a multi-county police investigation was in operation. The law enforcement agencies worked through the month of April with no additional attacks by Ramirez. Two months after killing the Zazzara couple, Ramirez attacked again. Harold Wu, age 66, was shot in the head, and his wife, Jean Wu, age 63, was punched, bound, and then violently raped. For unknown reasons, Ramirez decided to let her live. Ramirez's attacks were now in full throttle. He left behind more clues to his identity, and was named 'The Night Stalker' by the media. Survivors of his attacks provided the police with a description - Hispanic, long dark hair, and foul smelling.

On May 29, 1985, Ramirez attacked Malvial Keller, 83, and her invalid sister, Blanche Wolfe, 80, beating each with a hammer. Ramirez attempted to rape Keller, but failed. Using lipstick, he drew pentagrams on Keller's thigh and on the wall in the bedroom. Blanche survived the attack. The next day, Ruth Wilson, 41, was bound, raped, and sodomized by Ramirez, while her 12-year old son was locked in a closet. Ramirez slashed Wilson once, and then bound her and her son together, and left.

In June and July, three more women were killed. Two had their throats slit, one was beaten to death, and all three had their homes invaded in the process. On July 5 Whitney Bennett, age 16, survived being beaten with a tire iron. On July 7 Linda Fortuna, 63, was attacked and Ramirez tried to rape her, but failed. On July 20 he again struck twice. In Sun Valley he shot and killed a 32-year-old man, Chitat Assawahem, and his wife Sakima, 29, was beaten then forced to perform oral intercourse. Ramirez then collected valuables then proceeded to leave. Later in the same day a Glendale couple, Maxson Kneiding, 66, and his wife Lela, also 66, were shot and their corpses mutilated.

On August 6 Ramirez shot both Christopher Petersen, 38, and his wife, Virginia, 27, in the head. Miraculously, they both survived. On August 8 Ramirez attacked a Diamond Bar couple, fatally shooting Ahmed Zia, 35, before raping, sodomizing, and forcing Zia's wife, Suu Kyi, 28, to perform fellatio on him. The description of their attacker fit the previous ones given for "The Walk-in Killer".

Ramirez then left the Los Angeles area, and on August 17, he shot to death a 66-year-old man in San Francisco, also shooting and beating his wife. The wife survived her wounds and was able to identify her attacker as "The Walk-in Killer" from police sketches. Since "The Walk-in Killer" no longer fit the modus operandi of the attacker, the news media re-dubbed him the "Night Stalker".

The next big break in the case came on August 24, 1985, Ramirez traveled 50 miles south of Los Angeles to Mission Viejo, and broke into the Mediterranean Village apartment of Bill Carns, 29, and his fiancée, Inez Erickson, 27. Ramirez shot Carns in the head and raped Erickson. He demanded she swear her love for Satan and afterwards, forced her to perform oral intercourse on him. He then tied her and left. Erickson struggled to the window and saw the car Ramirez was driving. She was able to give a description of both Ramirez and his orange Toyota station wagon. A teenager later identified the car from news reports and wrote down half its license plate number. The stolen car was found on August 28, and police were able to obtain one fingerprint that was on the mirror of the vehicle. The prints belonged to one Richard Muñoz Ramirez, who was described as a 25-year-old drifter from Texas with a long rap sheet that included many arrests for traffic and illegal drug violations.

Two days later, his mugshots were broadcast on national television and printed on the cover of every major newspaper in California. The next day Ramirez was identified, surrounded, and severely beaten by an angry mob in East Los Angeles (a Latino neighborhood) as he was trying to steal a car. Police had to break up the mob to prevent them from killing Ramirez. Many people in the mob were said to have shouted "tear his limbs off!" and other such punishments."




richard didnt rape any children.

[REALGUIDO]

He was not FORMALLY charged, meaning they didnt have enough info for conviction AND because they had way too many other charges to work with....they had evidence AND EYEWITNESS testimonies, but most were from children and prosecutors probably wanted to spare the children FROM DIRECT EXAMINTAION IN A COURT OF LAW...Now once again RESEARCH

ok heres a list things richard could have been involved in but was never proven..
shootings bambis mother
the lindbergh baby kidnapping
deciding pluto was no longer a planet
ripping tags off mattresses
tipping less than 15% at restaurants
being in league with voldemort
ignoring the condition of the new orleans levees
paying too much for auto insurance before calling geico
having weapons of mass destruction
and faking crop circles in the english countryside.

you seem to be clinging to the possibility like grim death no matter how many times i point out he was neither convicted of rape or murder of a child. and dont insinuate i know nothing about richard when you didnt even know the common knowledge of him flashing a pentagram at his trial.i figured even those who knew little about the case would know at least that..
nice signature by the way. is unconditional love reserved just a select few?

[REALGUIDO]

Thats true...it WAS up to the Courts and he was convicted and all we need now is for the sentence to be carried out...So you are off the hook...Its not your fault he is going to die...Hope you sleep better now...

its not up to you or me to decide wether he deserves to live or die.

[REALGUIDO]

If I am not mistaken your loose translation of "pecan pie" is actually "fruitcake...." I may be wrong, havent spoken Slovic in years hahaha

Excellent first quote jeebies... The translation goes something like this...

I am a delusional nut case,
take me seriously and your nuttier than a pecan pie

This dialect comes from an unspecified region within an undetermined Slovenian region.

[REALGUIDO]

How about ..."If thine eye offends the then pluck it out..." Well the RR "Eye" offends me....hahaha

an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind

[sharlock]

Not a work of Fiction, PLAIN FACT...I really AM a family member. You beliefs are correct...
Oh Guido I am sorry I didn't get a chance to reply to this before you went offline. I wanted you to know that I am so sorry for the pain and greif that Richard has put you and your family through and I admire your strength and determination in letting people know the true nature of the man who killed so many. It is hard for me to imagine how it would feel to have someone you loved taken from you in such an evil manner. You are right it is the victims that should be the focus of any conversation in regards to RR not the morally depraved killer.

:rose: May his victims Rest In Peace and my heartfelt thoughts to the families that have sufferd so much because of one selfish evil pathetic man!!!:rose:

[REALGUIDO]

I apprecieate your feelings, but I am only here to dispell the MYTHS surrounding RR. Myths perpetuated by people who might not be in "thier right minds." RR is sick, and CONVICTED WAY WAY WAY beyond a shadow of a doubt and NOTHING anyone can say is going to change that. He will be executed, or rot in Jail from his slow, debilitating "disorders." And slow, painful and excruciating is much more then he deserves, but I will settle for Justice any way it is served up. Thanks again Happy Posting and SEE YOU IN DISNEYLAND D..K-less


Oh Guido I am sorry I didn't get a chance to reply to this before you went offline. I wanted you to know that I am so sorry for the pain and greif that Richard has put you and your family through and I admire your strength and determination in letting people know the true nature of the man who killed so many. It is hard for me to imagine how it would feel to have someone you loved taken from you in such an evil manner. You are right it is the victims that should be the focus of any conversation in regards to RR not the morally depraved killer.

:rose: May his victims Rest In Peace and my heartfelt thoughts to the families that have sufferd so much because of one selfish evil pathetic man!!!:rose:

[REALGUIDO]

All I did was quote The Bible, I didnt write it.

I havent kill, raped, tortured, mutilated, child molested, gouged out peoples eyes, robbed, beat, sodomized anyone, so just how am I no better then RR?

I will "enlighten" who I want, when I want. I owe you nothing. And why would I show YOU whatever "facts" I have? the "facts" I have come from LIVING THE EXPERIENCE, so you can save your feeble attempts to paint me as a "troller." People who have been around here know me, and who I am and what I know, what makes you so special as I should open my life to you? You dont feed me, F--k me or sign my paycheck, so once again I owe you nothing. Please refrain from provocation or attempts to enflame. Keep this, Nice and ON TOPIC. I hate being banned or booted.

And in closing...PLEASE think before posting as I didnt post ANY LETTER AT ALL!!!! It was attached to a post that I was replying to. Get your information straight, Please. and Thank you.

P.S. and FYI the letter looks authentic and DEFINITLY looks JUST LIKE RR's scrawl. Oh and how would you know what RR's handwriting looks like? Closet Pen Pal?

Have a Nice Day!!!

then you are no better than richard.

seriously.. enlighten me with your knowledge. prove me wrong. lets see these facts you have.if i am wrong,lets see some documents or other substantial proof of it. otherwise your just trolling.
and by the way. that letter you posted?does not look like richards writing but i stated that before.

[Elemanzer]

Thanks Sharlock for that. It must be weird for her. I can see if my best friend of 17 years become a serial killer I would still be his friend, unless he killed or someone I loved, but to go out and seek a best friend who is already a serial killer is just strange. What did your personal ad look like?

WSF seek SK with at 7+ victums. Must be on death row. Send pics

This reminds me of that Seinfeld where George dates a girl in prison because he likes the freedom. The girl can just pop in at any time she feels like and it's not like he has to worry about her being out late or cheating on him. From the pic you look a little on the heavy side and I bet that is the only way you could get a guy is if he was on death row... and even then it sounds like he cheating on you. Sucks to be you.

[REALGUIDO]

"Convienient?" No..."INTELLIGENT" And I dont have to prove it, just like you dont have to prove how "tough" you think you are. We just have to take it at face value. What parts of "my life" I open up, I do with caution due to the subject matter location and my ability to speak my mind. Believe as you wish, it doesnt matter to me...REALLY....

I am happy that you spend your time corresponding with someone who rapes and slaughters old ladies....you must get alot out of a relationship like that....Now type some more and show everyone your IQ, so I dont have to keep pointing it out. Thanks and have a REALLY Nice Day!!!

can say im wrong,but dont have to prove it....how convienient.you seem to have no issues "opening your life" when it serves your purpose now dont you?

not a closet pen pal at all. i do write richard .

[Mishell1383]

anger escalates.
anger and hatred cause more anger and hatred.nothing good comes of it.
that is my point.sorry if you dont understand.
Than why do you support anything RR? :confused:

[Mishell1383]

well, you're entitled to your opinion, but let me just say this; whether or not he is guilty of these crimes, only he knows, but he is still a human being, and he still needs to feel loved. i would not wish harm upon him, or anyone else. especially something like cancer. remember; God loves richard just as much as He loves any of us, like it or not.
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A human being!? He is a monster!!!!!


imo

[Sharon]

Oh my....I am sooo happy to hear that although married, this utter monster and definate waste of space will NEVER reproduce. This pleases me no end. This POS will die with no offspring to continue his evil line. I hope his virgin wife doesnt feel too left out. I hear there is much action going on in the gangs.

On another note, on seeing the wedding photo....I dont know about any one else....but this POS really looked like he would think nothing of killing his new wife. I would really hate to be her if he had a chance at having her to himself somewhere remote. I think she would be yesterdays news pretty fast.

[Mishell1383]

I think these women, these serial killer groupies, are just as dangerous as the killers themselves. I think they help fuel the fire for more victims. I also imp think they are sick individuals and it should be classifies as an illness, at a mental institution.


imo

[REALGUIDO]

There are no answers for the questions asked her. She has a track record of avoiding ANY question which is logical and intelligent and deserving of an answer....

Please show a link that police gave ordrers to kill Richard rather than arrest him? It would be much more likely that all officers were warned that Richard was highly dangerous and his crimes had been escalating to such an extent that anyone approaching him with the intent to arrest could fimd themselves at risk if proper precautions were not taken. If however there was an order to kill then it would be documented and I'd like to know where that was documented.
Doreen if you feel able to contribute to the conversations when you believe someone else has made a mistake then I am curious as to why you don't feel able to reply to the few questions that were asked of you?
Sharlock

[REALGUIDO]

your words ring of truth... Great Post....

I agree that he's evil, dallasvic. No human being with an ounce of feeling for others could do what he did. Still, it doesn't surprise me that evil people do evil things--that's the nature of evil.

What DOES appall me is how many women fought over the "privilege" of getting Ramirez's attention, being his "girlfriend", even marrying him--if you can call it a real marriage. Under the law if a marriage isn't consummated, it isn't a "done deal"--it can be annulled.

But that's beside the point. What I cannot fathom is why any woman would be "attracted" to this monster in the first place. I know it happens--every murderer has his groupies. But I will never ever understand it--and it's horrifying to think that a serial killer has a "fan club"!

Can't these pathetic women find "real" men to marry? Or is it something in them that draws them to the most evil people in society? I couldn't stand being in the same room as someone who's committed the atrocities that Ramirez has.

I don't see most of Richard's defenders wasting any sympathy on his victims. Instead they choose to attack people who are offended by his actions (imagine that!!) and call them "hate-mongers".

If you want to see a real "hate-monger"---take a look at Richard Ramirez. THAT is the face of hatred.

[Sharon]

Once I came across this awful website that was a dating agency for inmates!!!! WTF is that all about!!!! It was a full on (almost porn) site blatenly advertising for hot partners or that the inmates were hot themselves. Many were lifers and it was as if this was becides the point. Both female and male inmates advertised and did not hold back at all.

I was in shock at the concept to be honest. Anything for a buck is it?????

[REALGUIDO]

whats the point? the majority here do not seem to comprehend them. they said richard raped a little boy while his mother listened tied up in the next room.not true.and to those who insist it is... show me where you read about it.people seem to love making up things to add fuel to the fire like there isnt enough already.
instead of having this lame drawn out fight with me..why dont you scroll back and have a look at the speculations about richard since you know so much about the case?
and yes i feel sorry for you. you think of this as "winning" i think of it as debate.fighting on the internet is like running in the special olympics.:shrug:
hows that for an intelligent answer?


How do you know it isnt true? Were you there. There were reports of him raping an 8 year old boy...several other charges of him molesting other children as well....Read it in the 2 books written about him. There were MANY charges concerning children levied against RR, but all were never pursued...This doesnt mean they didnt happen. I do agree there is plenty of sickness without adding fuel to the fire, and granted, lots around here post BS about it. In fact one account has completely incorrect names for the victims....I dont think of this as winning anything....But I do think that was an intelligent answer....Hopefully you feel that got an intelligent reply in return...Have a Nice Day.

[Mishell1383]

Once I came across this awful website that was a dating agency for inmates!!!! WTF is that all about!!!! It was a full on (almost porn) site blatenly advertising for hot partners or that the inmates were hot themselves. Many were lifers and it was as if this was becides the point. Both female and male inmates advertised and did not hold back at all.

I was in shock at the concept to be honest. Anything for a buck is it?????
I don't believe these inmates should have any rights to do this! I don't think they should have any rights at all! I think when you commit a heinous crime you lose all possible rights to anything! This type of thing makes me sick!

[REALGUIDO]

The children were failed by the system. I concur...ALL of the victims and thier families have been failed by the same system. The system that allows this sick monster to continue to breath....but we ARE a civilized society, I am told...

The cops didnt pick, the attorneys and D.A.'s pick...but what would additional charges accomplish? Get him executed sooner? Nope...Wouldnt have helped anyone, especially the children. They would have had to testify, as if what RR did wasnt enough, but to subject them to re-live the experience repeatedly? I think they did what thye thought best for the situation. Hindsight is always 20/20...I have read Phillips book also, as well as Linedeckers...but I was also "there" in the middle of it too....Thanks for the "rational" post. I replied "in kind."

if what you say is true. then these children were failed by the system for not pursueing these charges.how can you "not pursue" a rape charge against a child?its not like the cops can pick and choose what crimes they are going to follow up on.i have read phil carlos book on him however.

[REALGUIDO]

What I say IS true...


if what you say is true. then these children were failed by the system for not pursueing these charges.how can you "not pursue" a rape charge against a child?its not like the cops can pick and choose what crimes they are going to follow up on.i have read phil carlos book on him however.

[Sharon]

I don't believe these inmates should have any rights to do this! I don't think they should have any rights at all! I think when you commit a heinous crime you lose all possible rights to anything! This type of thing makes me sick!

I brought this up because we are all wondering how these sick POS get so much female attension. Well there is a thriving internet site community with this going on all the time. In fact there are many sites like these. It is a mad crazy world for sure!

[sharlock]

I brought this up because we are all wondering how these sick POS get so much female attension. Well there is a thriving internet site community with this going on all the time. In fact there are many sites like these. It is a mad crazy world for sure!

Sharon did you know there was even a thread about this subject in CL.
Are Serial Killers Hot? [Archive] - Crimelibrary.com Message Boards (http://boards.crimelibrary.com/archive/index.php/t-280623.html)
I think that it might be quite a different story if these serial killers were not safely behind bars. I bet noone would be sending naked piccies to them if they were out of jail.:eek:

[Sharon]

Sharon did you know there was even a thread about this subject in CL.
Are Serial Killers Hot? [Archive] - Crimelibrary.com Message Boards (http://boards.crimelibrary.com/archive/index.php/t-280623.html)
I think that it might be quite a different story if these serial killers were not safely behind bars. I bet noone would be sending naked piccies to them if they were out of jail.:eek:

I wonder!!!! Im sure there is an element of safety in even not having to have a `real` relationship. There is an element of pittifullness that we can attribute to the sort of women who commit to a lifer and devote their lives to the relationship.

One story that really disturbs me no end involves a murderer in Australia. He and his brother tortured and killed a retarted woman. They savagly raped her, gorged her eyes out with their fingers, beat her and other terrible attrocities. They boasted about this also, and never repented. They think the `b!tch` deserved what she got. She was mentally disabled for crying out loud!!!! Well, the POS Im refering to got out this year, as a married man (got married while in prison) and with baby waiting to have Dad home!!!!!!

So these murderers are getting on with life, meeting new partners, getting out after 10 or so years to start again......and obviously having no trouble finding willing partners to boot!!!!! How is that possible????? Are people insane or what?????

I think if you get involved with a known murderer you are asking for trouble. They sjould not be allowed the luxury of human relationships with outsiders. imo

[sharlock]

I wonder!!!! Im sure there is an element of safety in even not having to have a `real` relationship. There is an element of pittifullness that we can attribute to the sort of women who commit to a lifer and devote their lives to the relationship.

One story that really disturbs me no end involves a murderer in Australia. He and his brother tortured and killed a retarted woman. They savagly raped her, gorged her eyes out with their fingers, beat her and other terrible attrocities. They boasted about this also, and never repented. They think the `b!tch` deserved what she got. She was mentally disabled for crying out loud!!!! Well, the POS Im refering to got out this year, as a married man (got married while in prison) and with baby waiting to have Dad home!!!!!!

So these murderers are getting on with life, meeting new partners, getting out after 10 or so years to start again......and obviously having no trouble finding willing partners to boot!!!!! How is that possible????? Are people insane or what?????

I think if you get involved with a known murderer you are asking for trouble. They sjould not be allowed the luxury of human relationships with outsiders. imo
I think I know the murder you mean, is it the one where they recorded the attack on her? I just don't get the attraction?

[dobbylupin]

I wonder!!!! Im sure there is an element of safety in even not having to have a `real` relationship. There is an element of pittifullness that we can attribute to the sort of women who commit to a lifer and devote their lives to the relationship.

One story that really disturbs me no end involves a murderer in Australia. He and his brother tortured and killed a retarted woman. They savagly raped her, gorged her eyes out with their fingers, beat her and other terrible attrocities. They boasted about this also, and never repented. They think the `b!tch` deserved what she got. She was mentally disabled for crying out loud!!!! Well, the POS Im refering to got out this year, as a married man (got married while in prison) and with baby waiting to have Dad home!!!!!!

So these murderers are getting on with life, meeting new partners, getting out after 10 or so years to start again......and obviously having no trouble finding willing partners to boot!!!!! How is that possible????? Are people insane or what?????

I think if you get involved with a known murderer you are asking for trouble. They sjould not be allowed the luxury of human relationships with outsiders. imo


I live in Australia but have never heard of this case. Do you have any of the names of the people involved?

I was watching this doco not long ago about women who marry serial killers/guys on death row, that sort of thing. It featured Richard's better half, Doreen. Boy she sure is someone who is in dire need of psychological help. To fall in love with such a brutal man and seem so flippant about his victims, is, to put it mildly, disrepectful. I don't understand that mentality at all. Gil Kariya, one of the cops who investigated the Night Stalker case, was also interviewed on the show about the marriage, and while I don't remember his words verbatim, he used phrases like "Disgusting" and it was a "Mockery of the sanctity of marriage," when asked to describe his feelings about the happy event. She'd better thank her lucky stars he'll never get out, she'd be first in line for the same treatment he doled out to his unfortunate victims. Leopards don't change their spots sweetie pie.

I wonder if Doreen has ever seen some of the crime scene photographs and seen the handiwork of her loving husband?

Unfortunately in cases like this the serial killer becomes famous or notorious and the victims are all but forgotten by everyone except their families who have to endure the trauma of losing a loved one in such a terrible fashion.

Execution is really too good for Richard Ramirez. He's a sociopathic monster who cannot understand or feel love for anything, not even himself. When his time comes I hope it is slow and painful.

[wind149]

He has to be sitting on death row now at least 20 years. Time on death row in CA ticks by too slowly!! This is one evil SOB! A devil worshiper, I saw him in court, hanging the sign of the Satan and he raped and murdered many people! His groupie wife, now there is a piece of work. I saw an interview on some crime show on night where she describes him (GAG) as a gentle soul, a kind and loving man!! Yeah, can't real stir it up in the visiting room can you Doreen?? What a loser she is. I saw wedding photos of her and Evil and I just about barfed. How come is it this POS was allowed to get married sitting his ass on death row and can have visits with wifey? Sounds like he ain't doing hard time here. I can see the dutiful wife now. Bringing him food, ciggies if they are allowed, holding hands, BARF! I wonder if he had come through her window with intent on raping and stabbing her to death, would she still think he is hot? These death row groupies are sick puppies in their own right. You can just about guess how much "fan" mail Scott Peterson gets and on another board I posted a thread about death row pen pals and why I think it is a bad idea. First of all these losers are not there for the hell of it. On We one night I saw a woman from MI, who was a secretary at a church who for whatever possessed them to do so started a pen pal thing between church members and these losers. She started writing to a POS who raped and murdered a child!!! Before you can say FRY, she gives up her job, house, gave custody of her kids to her ex and moved to a crummy trailer by the state pen in FLA just to be near this scumbag!! And he is due to be executed next year! She loves this slimeball, her "soulmate". She has even tried to get him off death row as he of course has bamboozled her into thinking he is as innocent as the child he killed! See why I think prison pen pals is a bad idea? These guys are CONS, master manipulators, and can write some sweet poetry and bam! another victim in their wake. Remember that dumb broad who worked at a Kentucky prison as a nurse? She fell in love with a real loser doing life for murder, he has a court hearing and she comes out blazing at a deputy, kills him and they head for the hills. They are re-captured days later in OH and now she is going up for the DP herself. So many insecure, low self-esteem women fall for these scumbags, only to blow their own lives up in the process. I realize they are grown women able to make their own choices, but ya gotta wonder why anyone sane would want to have a relationship with a loser who will never get out, they will never have any sexual contact, the best they can do is maybe hold hands and maybe a peck on the cheek. I don't know how Erik Menendez's wife does it. Stay married to a man who killed two people. I do feel a little for Erik, they were abused by their father, but it was their actions after the murders that convinced people they were guilty of cold-blooded murder. He is doing LWPOP so basically, they will never have a true relationship, but she sees something we don't I guess. As for Satan Boy, Geez, CA, kill him already will ya???

[Candy Slice]

Doreen... did you know richard before we went to jail or did you meet up with him after?

NOT to jump in and speak for Doreen, but im almost 100% certain that they met and married after a long correspondence. So no, she did not know him prior to his arrest.

[Candy Slice]

what i dont understand is why hes not dead yet? Is California too liberal? I know that Texas executes far more rapidly than CA.

The serial killer groupie rage is perplexing at best. I know that Richard gets a lot of letters and girls send half-naked pictures. Apparently, richard likes a picture of the girl from behind, on all fours, the backs of her feet in the air? Crazzeee!

I think some woman think that their love can "fix" the serial killer. They overlook the atrocities and are only seeing the good side of the killer.

I wrote a few killers years ago and its easy to remain NICE in a letter. I had read a book by a guy called Jason Moss, who befriended Gacy before he died. I was fascinated with the idea of getting into the killers heads, but they wont do it. They act like normal guys, but i knew differently.

I heard that Richard was in the visiting room at SQ, and he exposed himself to children. CAn you imagine that? How sickening! AN erect killers hotdog, taken out of his pants to show little kids!

Does anybody know what got Richard arrested? I read a book along time ago but forgot how they narrowed it down to him.I remember a shoeprint and also a fingerprint in his car.

But may i regress, Why is he not executed yet? ANybody know?

[been there]

If i can remember correctly, law enforcement was able to finally put a name to this killer when somehow they talked to a friend of Richard's, i think it had something to do with fencing stolen items. The friend gave him away.
If my memory is correct.

[wind149]

This scumbag in southern CA in the 80's raped and killed several people. I am a little fuzzy as to how many, 14? and earned himself the moniker of the "Night Stalker" He terrorized LA and surrounding communities for months, police at first were hard pressed as to who he was as none of his victims lived tell about it till one night he broke into a home intent on raping a woman but she started screaming and he left. She gave a description to the police and they released a composite sketch to the media and if memory does serve me, a friend of his did think he resembled the drawing and was going to go to the police and a bunch of people saw him walking down a street and he looked so much like the guy they chased him down, somebody called the cops and before they could get there the mob went crazy on him. He was taken into custody and the woman ID him and he was consequently charged with all the other crimes as they did have fingerprints, and semen but no DNA as it did not exist as a science back then. He is truly a son of Satan, in some of the bodies he had carved pentagrams and the numeral 666. He often interrupted the trial yelling about Satan and satanic hand gestures, showed no remorse whatsoever and was found guilty on all charges and given a death sentence of which by my calculations, he has been on death row at least 20 years. This POS has sat on the taxpayers for the last 20 years, it is disgusting and deplorable. And what really galls me is how he was able to get married and have visits from his blushing bride who is just as warped as he is. But for her marrying him, that elevates her status among other death row loser groupies!!! She thinks he is a gentle soul, yah! Have to be in a visiting room full of CO's! This is an example of why I strongly protest death row inmates or child molesters or rapists of women and children can have pen pals. These maggots put themselves there and why should anyone give a crap if they are sad and lonely? How about their victims and their families? Do you know a Canadian based anti-death row militant group actually have web-sites set up for losers like Scott Peterson? I wrote them a scathing e-mail and voiced my disgust and asked them if they had thought about how the victims and families would feel that they get to post their rhetoric on these sites and how many more potential victims could result from this? Remind me of why I don't go through Canada when I go back to NE to visit? They wrote back and told me it was INHUMANE for them to have no HUMAN CONTACT! I wrote back and said you are kidding right? What about the families? What do they have? Is Laci Peterson's mother able to contact her daughter and grandson??? No, they go to a rock in a grave yard. This makes me sick!!!! Right after John Couey was sent to death row for raping and murdering 9 year old Jessie Lunsford, I wrote a letter to the state prison in FL voicing my disgust that he should not have any creature comforts beyond the basics. He is a maggot, a scumbag and he should have NOTHING but walls to stare at. I was pleasantly surprised when I got a letter back telling me exactly what he has and doesn't. He gets only one hot meal a day, a shower every other day, mail, one phone call a month, one book a week, writing materials and that is it. You have to buy the TV's there and they are only 13' B&W's and he can't afford one, there is no cable or AC, he can have canteen, but with no money he gets nothing!! Now this is the kinda time they all should serve. He was beyond redemption before he got there, so rehab is out of the question, with this puke it is all about punishment. I keep hoping they bring Old Sparky out of retirement just for him and he rides it all the way to hell! I wonder if San Quentin has cable and AC! If so, Son of Satan has it made! Entertainment and a wife and death row appeals that take over 20 years! You guys in CA need to contact Governor Arnold and complain!! This POS, what he did, and he gets rewarded by being able to marry, it is disgusting!

[wind149]

This scumbag in southern CA in the 80's raped and killed several people. I am a little fuzzy as to how many, 14? and earned himself the moniker of the "Night Stalker" He terrorized LA and surrounding communities for months, police at first were hard pressed as to who he was as none of his victims lived tell about it till one night he broke into a home intent on raping a woman but she started screaming and he left. She gave a description to the police and they released a composite sketch to the media and if memory does serve me, a friend of his did think he resembled the drawing and was going to go to the police and a bunch of people saw him walking down a street and he looked so much like the guy they chased him down, somebody called the cops and before they could get there the mob went crazy on him. He was taken into custody and the woman ID him and he was consequently charged with all the other crimes as they did have fingerprints, and semen but no DNA as it did not exist as a science back then. He is truly a son of Satan, in some of the bodies he had carved pentagrams and the numeral 666. He often interrupted the trial yelling about Satan and satanic hand gestures, showed no remorse whatsoever and was found guilty on all charges and given a death sentence of which by my calculations, he has been on death row at least 20 years. This POS has sat on the taxpayers for the last 20 years, it is disgusting and deplorable. And what really galls me is how he was able to get married and have visits from his blushing bride who is just as warped as he is. But for her marrying him, that elevates her status among other death row loser groupies!!! She thinks he is a gentle soul, yah! Have to be in a visiting room full of CO's! This is an example of why I strongly protest death row inmates or child molesters or rapists of women and children can have pen pals. These maggots put themselves there and why should anyone give a crap if they are sad and lonely? How about their victims and their families? Do you know a Canadian based anti-death row militant group actually have web-sites set up for losers like Scott Peterson? I wrote them a scathing e-mail and voiced my disgust and asked them if they had thought about how the victims and families would feel that they get to post their rhetoric on these sites and how many more potential victims could result from this? Remind me of why I don't go through Canada when I go back to NE to visit? They wrote back and told me it was INHUMANE for them to have no HUMAN CONTACT! I wrote back and said you are kidding right? What about the families? What do they have? Is Laci Peterson's mother able to contact her daughter and grandson??? No, they go to a rock in a grave yard. This makes me sick!!!! Right after John Couey was sent to death row for raping and murdering 9 year old Jessie Lunsford, I wrote a letter to the state prison in FL voicing my disgust that he should not have any creature comforts beyond the basics. He is a maggot, a scumbag and he should have NOTHING but walls to stare at. I was pleasantly surprised when I got a letter back telling me exactly what he has and doesn't. He gets only one hot meal a day, a shower every other day, mail, one phone call a month, one book a week, writing materials and that is it. You have to buy the TV's there and they are only 13' B&W's and he can't afford one, there is no cable or AC, he can have canteen, but with no money he gets nothing!! Now this is the kinda time they all should serve. He was beyond redemption before he got there, so rehab is out of the question, with this puke it is all about punishment. I keep hoping they bring Old Sparky out of retirement just for him and he rides it all the way to hell! I wonder if San Quentin has cable and AC! If so, Son of Satan has it made! Entertainment and a wife and death row appeals that take over 20 years! You guys in CA need to contact Governor Arnold and complain!! This POS, what he did, and he gets rewarded by being able to marry, it is disgusting!

[redwarrior]

Interesting thread on RR by the way, I just came from watching the doco posted on youtube. Anyone here have a convo with RR regarding Satanism? According to the doco when RR is executed DR has vowed to commit suicide. Whoa! sincere that was a shocking read of a letter from RR to Eva....when the time comes, I hope she reconsiders taking her own life!:o

[wind149]

Kitty,
I have written to him a couple of times and he does have the power to change things, I guess not enough people have cared how their tax dollars are spent housing and feeding, and amusing these scumbags. If we did not have an appeal process on death row cases, they would be executed sooner than later and the tax burden would not be as high. I would much rather my tax dollars went to children's programs, job placement programs and education than to feed Richard Rimerez and make sure his blushing bride gets a seat in the visiting room every Sunday. Can you all guess how much you all have shelled out for the last 20 years just for him? 300 people could have probably have gone to college and got degrees and are productive members of society. As for the bridezilla there, who cares if she wants to commit suicide? She probably will only do a half-ass job of it just to get attention and be on Larry King moaning how the state of CA has murdered her husband, the kind and gentle soul that he was. (BARF)

[redwarrior]

My point exactly, if something happend to her I wonder if he would take his own life? From the looks of it, it does not appear that he will, in fact he may find someone to replace her as his wife by the way he is carrying on with other women.

Although the BOP and DOC frown on ppal ads-not much they can do about it. Much attention has been given to myspace and facebook with repeated warnings to parents and the public about the dangers of internet friendships. First amendment-gotta love it!

[wind149]

You guys are both right. Kitty, the welfare system is more widely abused than drugs. Women out here have 3-10 kids all by different Daddies and will continue to have them just so they don't have to work. They are supposed to be actively looking for a job when the child enters kindergarten, but by that time, she is already preggers with the next. One woman I saw in the store one day had what with appeared to be mostly junk food in her cart cashed out at $400 in food stamps. She had three kids under the age of five and they looked filthy and unkempt and I am thinking, here is the state doing right by her and supporting her when the only thing she did was to spread her legs and her kids obviously are not been fed or clothed well and here is the queen wearing nice jeans and a a nice top, her nails were done and her hair looked freshly cut and here are the kids with ratty hair and dirty faces. She has made a career out of the welfare program and when welfare was established it was for families who might have a TEMPORARY PROBLEM like loss of a job or illness, not to have generations of the same family all on the dole and the tax payers. Makes me mad when I have friends that work hard to support their children and my friend hardly ever buys any new clothes, she goes to thrift stores and her daughter cuts her hair and mine and every cent her and her husband make go towards their mortgage, food, car payment, and there is not much left at the end of the week. Meanwhile queenie will head for TJ Max and load up. As for Ramirez, I am pleased to see someone else who feels death row pen pals is a bad idea, more victims in the making every time, but as usual they have more rights than I do. They are on death row because they clearly do not belong in society, so therefore should not be entitled to have anything except the basics, food, clothes, showers, and that it is it. No cable TV or AC, no visits, no brides or grooms, no pen pals, stare at the walls is the only thing they should do and if they had not committed the crime that got them there ,then they would be entitled to everything law-abiding citizens have. Son of Satan here has it made. As for her committing suicide, she would be the one dying, he would not do it for her I betcha, and then find some other loser to marry. It floors me just how many sick puppies there are that actually want to have a relationship with a rapist and a murderer. I posted on the DP board that there was a woman from here that gave up her career, her home, her children for some dirtbag child raping piece of scum on FL's death row. Gave it all up to live in a crummy trailer near the prison and of course is completely bamboozled into thinking he is as innocent as the snow falling outside my window right now and is trying and using up every dime out of her savings account to get him a new trial. He is due to be executed next year and this scumbag, they have him dead to rights with DNA and eye witness account of him kidnapping the six year old girl and this stupid broad thinks he is Elvis reincarnated. Her kids have disowned her and she does not even care, all she cares about is that dirtbag. Pretty sad if you ask me. They don't call them cons for nothing.

[BraveW]

As a close Friend of Richard Ramirez. A.K.A. the Night Stalker
from Los angeles. I would like to say a few things on his behalf.
I've known Richard Since 1982. when I met him in SanFranciscio,Ca
and not once was he ever violent towards me at any time. in fact he was
always fun to be around full of life and a great guy. if It had'nt been for a family member Richard would have never gotten in to troulbe like he did
his Cousin what caused Richard to use drugs like he did. yes I defend him
because I believe in him & always will
... Ed Gein, Albert Fish, John Wayne Gacy, Richard Ramirez, serial killer bios ... Richard Ramirez lived with his room mate and very close friend Bravewolf, a ...
www.serialkillercalendar.com/RICHARD-RAMIREZ.html - 152k - Cached
by the way thats my real name Bravewolf

[Shelley420]

You know, when Richard's mother was pregnant with him, she worked in a boot factory using dyes and paints. The fumes were terrible and she and her workmates would feel irritable and sick on weekends as they were actually withdrawing from the chemicals, they were so bad. In those days there was no ventilation or masks. His mother worked there for most of her pregnancy and I think that, combined with his two head injuries as a child also had something to do with why he ended up as he did.

His cousin definitely did not help at all and was a terrible influence, I have to agree with you there.

But he still did what he did and as far as I know never showed any remorse.

As far as Doreen goes, apparently she thinks and always has thought that he is innocent, that is how she can justify her "love" I guess.

I think he needs to be executed and the sooner the better. There is no hope for someone like him.

[Tangerine]

doreen-
we all are in denial to a certain extent; we have to be to survive in this world, but girl, you take denial to such an extreme we need a new name for it! your man is a serial killer and he cheats on you. let me say that again in case you didn't catch it the first time: he is a SERIAL KILLER who tortured and raped people AND he cheats on you!! how low does your self-esteem have to be to think this is the only man you deserve? what happened to you as a child? your "love" for him just boggles my mind. i agree with whoever it was that said you need psychological help. he is a psychopath and psychopaths are master manipulators and thats exactly what he's doing to you. the funny thing about denial is that this is so obvious to everyone but you (...well probably not so obvious to kung fu kitty either)!

kung fu kitty- you need some help also.

and when sharlock said that RR killed someone's child, i hope you realize that all of those adult victims were someone's children too.

MY GOD!!!!

[Tangerine]

Gary Gilmore's loser girlfriend smuggled in pills in order for them to have a suicide pact and guess what? He didn't taken them, but she almost did the deed and for that, she lost custody of her children and he was shot by a firing squad anyway.

i had forgotten about gary gilmore. i wouldnt say she LOST custody; i would say she gave them away because she made that decision without any regard for her kids. its disgusting. i want to know what it is exactly that motivates these women. why would you choose a serial killer over your children. its insane! :confused:
__________________

[wind149]

Tangerine, Did you see my take about a show I saw on WE where women that are just like Doreen were featured? This one stupid broad from MI gave up her entire life for a babyraping piece of scum rat puke who is on FL's death row for raping and murdering a six year old girl. This stupid woman was a secretary at a church, had two children, a lovely home and this church got stupid and set up a pen pal thing where the members could write to losers on DR. She starts writing to this puke and before you can say execute, she has left her job, gave custody of her children to the ex, sold her home and set up housekeeping in a crappy trailer near the prison and of course is madly, deeply, in love with a child killing maggot! So I do know where you are coming from on the how the hell could they choose the POS over their own kids????? Her own children now refuse to have anything to do with her and it broke my heart when her daughter cried because she misses her mom and here is this loser broad saying she has to get over it! I wanted to smack her right through my TV! She faithfully goes to every visiting hour, brings the rat puke presents and now is ready to spend every dime of her savings to get a lawyer to try to get this scuzz another trial and she is SOOOO stupid as I did some checking and they have him dead to rights, DNA, semen, blood, a video camera caught him taking the child out of the store where he abducted her from and does this idiot see this?? NOOOOO! She claims he was HELPING the girl find her mother and the real story is, he raped her and strangled her and threw her body in a corn field, you want to beat some sense into this loser!!! He is due to be executed in 2008 having been on DR for 12 years and what does moron have to say about it? "I know we can win him another trial, he could not have done this crime, he is a warm, loving man, who LOVES children and I KNOW he loves me" Look at the other stupid loser from Kentucky. Was a prison nurse, fell in love with a real piece of rat puke doing a life sentence for murder, married him and he went to court one day and here comes "Bonnie" guns blastings, kills the deputy escorting the scum and they take off only to be caught in OH two days later and now she is facing the DP herself. All for one night of sex with a loser scumbag, she blew her life up in 5 seconds. Her children are wards of the state now, clearly, she was not thinking about her kids either. These women are so bamboozled by these cons, they lose touch with reality, they feel they are "saving" them, that they can be redeemed, and all the con sees is an easy mark and a way to do easy time. These women send them money, whatever they can send them as well, visit with them and it disgusts me to no end that DR inmates can marry, or have any contact from the outside world. The bleeders moan about THEIR isolation, how cruel and inhumane it is, and not one thought to the victims and how the families have to go on without their loved one, they can't hold them , love them, give them presents, all they have is a rock in a graveyard. Too much attention is being paid to the rights of the condemmed. They put themselves there by being sick freaks like Ramirez, babyraping scum like Couey, and serial killers like John Wayne Gacy. Some women might wake up and some never will until it is too late. The daughter of the woman from MI swears she never wants to see her again, she feels abandoned, she feels her mother does not love her ,and is damm angry that her mother who she worshipped, chose a scumbag over her and her sister and I wanted to find this girl right then and there and call the poor girl! Here, a stranger, cares more than her own mother. Doreen, I see, did not comment as of yet, maybe she realized in her pea brain that some of us who live in the real world, who marry and date law-abiding men, are disgusted and repelled by her and her sick freak scumbag husband and if it was sympathy she was seeking here, she is more dilusional than I thought!:mad:

[sharlock]

As a close Friend of Richard Ramirez. A.K.A. the Night Stalker
from Los angeles. I would like to say a few things on his behalf.
I've known Richard Since 1982. when I met him in SanFranciscio,Ca
and not once was he ever violent towards me at any time. in fact he was
always fun to be around full of life and a great guy. if It had'nt been for a family member Richard would have never gotten in to troulbe like he did
his Cousin what caused Richard to use drugs like he did. yes I defend him
because I believe in him & always will
... Ed Gein, Albert Fish, John Wayne Gacy, Richard Ramirez, serial killer bios ... Richard Ramirez lived with his room mate and very close friend Bravewolf, a ...
www.serialkillercalendar.com/RICHARD-RAMIREZ.html (http://www.serialkillercalendar.com/RICHARD-RAMIREZ.html) - 152k - Cached
by the way thats my real name Bravewolf
Hi Bravewolf,
I am curious as to what you mean when you say you defend Richard. Are you implying that you beleive him to be innocent or are you saying that he did it but is not responsible for what he did due to his cousins actions and his drug use? I am confused. I do think it was terrible for Richard to be subjected to such things so young but surely as an adult you don't seriously condone his actions? I would be really interested to hear your views in more depth.

[hissister]

What I wonder about women who want any romantic involvement with a serial killer is; do they feel some need to prove that they are a "good" woman? Are they, by their wanted involvement with a serial killer; trying to show things like "See, I'm a good woman, I can love you unconditionally, I can love you while the rest of the world hates you, I can look past the heinous things that you've done (and the victims whose lives you've brutally and viciously ended, the people you've tortured, the families you've destroyed)". Are they trying to somehow "prove" that they're a better, more loving woman than women who would have nothing to do with a cold-hearted killer?
Any woman who wants a romantic involvement with a cold-hearted killer; shows that she has no feelings, no caring, no compassion for the victims or victim's family.
These women might not even know that the killer really cares nothing for them. They're so blinded by this "need" that they have of showing what a "good woman" they are.
They're fools to not think that if somewhere they had been at any given time; had coincided with the killer also being there; that they could have easily been one of the victims. Or their child or children, if they have any.
These cold-blooded killers don't love these women. These women are fools to them. Stupid fools who will prove their loyalty to a serial killer while the rest of the world knows what a fool they are. But these women can't see it; they don't want to see it. They refuse to see it. Instead they act like the rest of the world is wrong to see them as fools.
I believe some of these women have sick minds; almost as sick as the serial killer they're devoting themselves to.
I believe that some of them do it for the attention.
Whatever their reason is for wanting a romantic involvement with a serial killer; they end up looking like fools. Ignorant, blind fools. And all the while, the serial killer is inwardly laughing at them for the fools they are.

[sharlock]

What I wonder about women who want any romantic involvement with a serial killer is; do they feel some need to prove that they are a "good" woman? Are they, by their wanted involvement with a serial killer; trying to show things like "See, I'm a good woman, I can love you unconditionally, I can love you while the rest of the world hates you, I can look past the heinous things that you've done (and the victims whose lives you've brutally and viciously ended, the people you've tortured, the families you've destroyed)". Are they trying to somehow "prove" that they're a better, more loving woman than women who would have nothing to do with a cold-hearted killer?
Any woman who wants a romantic involvement with a cold-hearted killer; shows that she has no feelings, no caring, no compassion for the victims or victim's family.
These women might not even know that the killer really cares nothing for them. They're so blinded by this "need" that they have of showing what a "good woman" they are.
They're fools to not think that if somewhere they had been at any given time; had coincided with the killer also being there; that they could have easily been one of the victims. Or their child or children, if they have any.
These cold-blooded killers don't love these women. These women are fools to them. Stupid fools who will prove their loyalty to a serial killer while the rest of the world knows what a fool they are. But these women can't see it; they don't want to see it. They refuse to see it. Instead they act like the rest of the world is wrong to see them as fools.
I believe some of these women have sick minds; almost as sick as the serial killer they're devoting themselves to.
I believe that some of them do it for the attention.
Whatever their reason is for wanting a romantic involvement with a serial killer; they end up looking like fools. Ignorant, blind fools. And all the while, the serial killer is inwardly laughing at them for the fools they are.
Really thought provoking to consider this from the point of view of the womans needs. I enjoyed reading your thoughts HS

[Tangerine]

Tangerine, Did you see my take about a show I saw on WE where women that are just like Doreen were featured? This one stupid broad from MI gave up her entire life for a babyraping piece of scum rat puke who is on FL's death row for raping and murdering a six year old girl. This stupid woman was a secretary at a church, had two children, a lovely home and this church got stupid and set up a pen pal thing where the members could write to losers on DR. She starts writing to this puke and before you can say execute, she has left her job, gave custody of her children to the ex, sold her home and set up housekeeping in a crappy trailer near the prison and of course is madly, deeply, in love with a child killing maggot! So I do know where you are coming from on the how the hell could they choose the POS over their own kids????? Her own children now refuse to have anything to do with her and it broke my heart when her daughter cried because she misses her mom and here is this loser broad saying she has to get over it! I wanted to smack her right through my TV! She faithfully goes to every visiting hour, brings the rat puke presents and now is ready to spend every dime of her savings to get a lawyer to try to get this scuzz another trial and she is SOOOO stupid as I did some checking and they have him dead to rights, DNA, semen, blood, a video camera caught him taking the child out of the store where he abducted her from and does this idiot see this?? NOOOOO! She claims he was HELPING the girl find her mother and the real story is, he raped her and strangled her and threw her body in a corn field, you want to beat some sense into this loser!!! He is due to be executed in 2008 having been on DR for 12 years and what does moron have to say about it? "I know we can win him another trial, he could not have done this crime, he is a warm, loving man, who LOVES children and I KNOW he loves me" Look at the other stupid loser from Kentucky. Was a prison nurse, fell in love with a real piece of rat puke doing a life sentence for murder, married him and he went to court one day and here comes "Bonnie" guns blastings, kills the deputy escorting the scum and they take off only to be caught in OH two days later and now she is facing the DP herself. All for one night of sex with a loser scumbag, she blew her life up in 5 seconds. Her children are wards of the state now, clearly, she was not thinking about her kids either. These women are so bamboozled by these cons, they lose touch with reality, they feel they are "saving" them, that they can be redeemed, and all the con sees is an easy mark and a way to do easy time. These women send them money, whatever they can send them as well, visit with them and it disgusts me to no end that DR inmates can marry, or have any contact from the outside world. The bleeders moan about THEIR isolation, how cruel and inhumane it is, and not one thought to the victims and how the families have to go on without their loved one, they can't hold them , love them, give them presents, all they have is a rock in a graveyard. Too much attention is being paid to the rights of the condemmed. They put themselves there by being sick freaks like Ramirez, babyraping scum like Couey, and serial killers like John Wayne Gacy. Some women might wake up and some never will until it is too late. The daughter of the woman from MI swears she never wants to see her again, she feels abandoned, she feels her mother does not love her ,and is damm angry that her mother who she worshipped, chose a scumbag over her and her sister and I wanted to find this girl right then and there and call the poor girl! Here, a stranger, cares more than her own mother. Doreen, I see, did not comment as of yet, maybe she realized in her pea brain that some of us who live in the real world, who marry and date law-abiding men, are disgusted and repelled by her and her sick freak scumbag husband and if it was sympathy she was seeking here, she is more dilusional than I thought!:mad:

you know, wind, i think i did see that show a long time ago and remember feeling for that same girl. i was just bewildered. i also read a book last year called women who love men who kill. the author goes into how these women are often victims of childhood abuse and have low self-esteem. but, i'm sorry, i am a victim of childhood abuse and grappled with low self-esteem in my twenties and i still wouldnt choose a serial killer over my thieving, drug-addicted second cousin with the lazy eye, let alone my own child!!!!! i do not understand how these women's maternal instincts go so askew. hopefully, these kids will realize they are better off without their mothers. i know it hurts them, but they could turn it in to something empowering one day. and really, i guess thats something we should applaud doreen for: no kids. i seriously doubt she will reply so im not expecting one. personally, i think her denial keeps her from seeing RR's victims as real ppl. i dont think they exist to her becuase if they did, she would have to face the sheer evil she has committed her life to and why would she want to do that?

[Tangerine]

What I wonder about women who want any romantic involvement with a serial killer is; do they feel some need to prove that they are a "good" woman? Are they, by their wanted involvement with a serial killer; trying to show things like "See, I'm a good woman, I can love you unconditionally, I can love you while the rest of the world hates you, I can look past the heinous things that you've done (and the victims whose lives you've brutally and viciously ended, the people you've tortured, the families you've destroyed)". Are they trying to somehow "prove" that they're a better, more loving woman than women who would have nothing to do with a cold-hearted killer?
what you say makes sense because often times victims of childhood abuse (like so many of these women are, if not all) feel bad about themselves and are shamed into thinking they arent good ppl. so maybe this is their (twisted)way of proving to themselves and everyone else that they really are good ppl. but you are right; they are fools.

[hissister]

I cannot pretend to understand the mind of a women who wants to be romantically involved with a serial killer. After I read all the other posts on what others had written in this thread; I started wondering how and why these women could want to be with this kind of man (or to be "with" him in anyway they can; if only to get to visit him in prison).
I started thinking how so many women do the whole "Stand By Your Man" thing. Women just have hearts that they want to give to a man; and unfortunately sometimes; any man will do.
I think about women who, after they've set their sites on a particular man that they want; block out all kinds of things like warning signs, etc. They put blinders on.
Think about how many men who are habitual cheaters, attract women who hope that their love for the man can be enough for him to stop cheating; or to at least not cheat on her. And then think about how some of those men actually get off on seeing their women fight over him.
I think the women who have set their sites on a serial killer; put these blinders on. That is, the women who aren't doing it just to draw attention to themselves.
Some of these women; like the one who gave up everything, including her children are such sad, sad creatures. Nothing else matters to them except the man that they chose and want to be with or "with". There just has to be some kind of twisted psychological reason for that.
Back to what I wrote about cheating men who get off on knowing that their women will fight over them. I think serial killers who have succeeded in getting a woman after they've been imprisoned, really, really get off on seeing a women make a fool out of themselves for him. Serial killers have sick, sadistic minds to begin with, and so they get a thrill from getting some woman to "Stand By Her Man".

[hissister]

I started thinking too, how some women are usually attracted to the bad boys. If they're given a choice between a good man who will treat them well, or a bad boy with a reputation for treating women badly; they'll choose the bad boy. There might be an underlying psychological reason for it; maybe they think the fact that their a good women will somehow change the bad boy; or that he'll somehow love her more than any other women he's ever known.
So, here's a serial killer; an extremely "bad boy". The fact that he's in prison might make some women feel safer; that he can't hurt them too badly (at least physically). So, it's a little safer to "love" him.
I'm not critizing women in my posts. I'm just trying to figure out why there are women who want to be "with" a serial killer. Someone who has shown total disrespect and regard for human life. Do these women who want to be romantically involved with a serial killer somehow think that he will have more respect for her or her life? Or her emotions. He darn sure didn't care about the life or emotions of his victims. But maybe she thinks when he sees that she can "love" him despite the horrible things he's done; that his cold, evil heart can change.
It's just so strange that there are women who actually will focus on and pursue an evil, evil man. Maybe it does have something to do with them being abused as they were growing up.
But as Tangerine posted; she had been abused and didn't turn out like the woman who chose a serial killer over her own child. Tangerine went through really bad, painful things and she chose to be the best person she could be, despite what she had been through.
I'm proud of you, Tangerine. You were badly treated, but you chose to be a good person, and be there to help others.
Too bad these other women can't see that they can't help a cold blooded, evil-hearted serial killer.

[Tangerine]

HS- thank you so much for your kind words. they mean more than you know. i know that you have endured your own trauma and loss. my heart goes out to you and your family.

[Tangerine]

ok first... doreen has not posted here in a while,so you missed the boat on that one.
the whole argument on killing someones child is just lame,and grasping at straws. i have heard some seriously stupid things people have thrown out there as reasons to hate richard,but this one definetly is top 5.
richard is a satanist. he never pretended to be anything else.how about you go look up exactly what satanism is,then maybe you will understand that not everyone thinks the same.
i am not defending richards crimes. but speculating that richard is incapable of love is just ridiculous.and oh yeah,he chose doreen to be his wife for a reason.so you can just drop the whole "he is cheating" bull****.what man do you know will be in jail for close to 25 years,and NOT try to get some if its offered? i sure as hell dont know any.richard had a high sex drive before his arrest,and im sure that hasnt changed.

what is good to you,may not be for everyone else.
so be a good lil lemming...and go waddle off the nearest cliff,k?

i know what satanism is, i know who anton levay is, i read half of the satanic bible when i was in high school. it bored me and i couldnt help thinking how stupid it was that the satanists denounced the only other religion that acknowledged satan. i do not have a problem with a person's choice of religion; if you want to be a satanist, knock yourself out because all satanism really is is hedonism (although they are not one and the same). my intolerance is with ppl who have no regard for others' lives and feelings and enjoy inflicting unimaginable pain. and since you believe that killing someone's child is a "stupid" reason to hate RR, this puts you in that category. and also, i never said that he was incapable of love; i'm sure he loves himself very much. your posts show your callousness and inability to feel empathy for the victims or their families, therefore i will not dignify anymore of your posts with a response. hiss and spit all you want, kitty kitty, i'm not listening anymore.

btw, wind doesnt strike me as bitter and hateful person, quite the opposite really. she is simply outraged by these women, as am i, because they throw away everything good for pure evil. but i must remember who i'm talking to. you will never understand why these women incite such anger in good ppl.

[hissister]

First I want to say that Tangerine is right; every adult murder victim is someone's child; no matter what age they were when they were murdered. A parent loves a child no less when they reach adulthood. That is their child.
Kung Fu Kitty; the way you called wind a bitter and hateful person is so twisted backwards. Bitter and hateful is the way YOU sound. The strong emotion that comes across in what wind, Tangerine, Sharlock, and everyone else here who has written in these threads, is the normal outrage that caring people feel for murder victims and the families of those victims. Outrage that people's lives and futures have been taken from them. Outrage that parents, siblings, and other family members have had someone they love dearly taken from them. And outrage that people would choose to feel sympathy for the killers rather than the victims and families of the victims.
I'm sure Doreen is a nice person in some ways. You wrote that she is "likely the most selfless and loving person you have ever come across". Of course you can't see or comprehend that her selflessness and "loving person" thing would be more obvious and believeable to others if she showed more compassion toward the victims and families of the victim; than to the man who murdered those people and destroyed those families. Her "courage of conviction", giving up her family to stand by this cold blooded murderer; is not an admiral thing.
About Richard Ramirez: Yes, he is a Satanist. I've known Satanists in the past. What I want to say is Satanism is not a loving religion. Satan himself is vile, evil and hateful. He wants his followers to hate and do evil things. Does Richard Ramirez have the capability to love anyone? I DON'T THINK SO. So what if he chose Doreen to be his wife? It could have easily been any other woman throwing herself at him; and being willing to give herself to him. You are right about thing; men in prison still want sex and of course they're going to try to "get some" if it's offered to them. That's not necessarily a good thing. I think you have sex confused with love. And Doreen might also.
"Good and evil are all points of view, arent' they". ??? I'm sorry that's just crazy. If good and evil were just points of view; then that would make it okay for people to murder, molest children, rape women and children, etc. etc. etc.; depending on one's "point of view".

[hissister]

I do want to add here that I agree that Richard Ramirez's family are victims too. Kung Fu Kitty; you're right that they had nothing to do with Richard's crimes; but did he care about his family while he was slaughtering and butchering his victims? NO. He also victimized his family; because they would forever have to live with being related to him. Richard Ramirez is a selfish, evil person. He didn't "choose" Doreen because he loves her. He chose her because she made it so easy for him to.
Remember; he also chose the people he was going to savagely murder. He chose each one of them for a reason (the sick reason in his mind). His "choosing" Doreen is no compliment to her, but she (and you) can't see that.
A women should be flattered when a good man chooses her. Not when someone like Richard Ramirez does. For the normal women in this world; that would just creep them out.
How can you tell the good people from the bad people? Good people hurt for the victims and the victim's families. Good people will reach out and show compassion to the families of the victims; not want to have sex with the killer.

[Tangerine]

you are awesome, hissister. i do believe that if i was a family member of a murder victim, as you are, my posts to these ppl defending murderers would be anger and hate-filled. yours are not. your posts are thought povoking and right-on. i applaud you.



:rose: GLEN DAVENPORT

[hissister]

Thank you Tangerine.

Kung Fu Kitty; Richard Ramirez "chose" Doreen because she's gullible. Any trust that he might have in her; is that she will stand by him no matter what.
Your statement that compassion and mercy should be available to everyone: it's God that extends compassion and mercy; if people are remorsefull and sorry for the bad that they've done. In the human world there is punishment for crimes commimtted against others. I don't believe that serial killers should be granted the right to have a mate and a chance for a romantic involvement with people outside of the prison after they've been imprisoned. They've taken the life of others. They're robbed their victims of romantic involvements; family relationships, their whole entire future.
Mother Theresa lived among people living in poverty; and among people with leprosy. If she had given her life to working with serial killers, she would not have included being romantically involved with one of them. She gave self-lessly; she didn't do what she did to get anything or anyone in return.
You've not heard me mention wanting to kill Richard Ramirez. I'm not foaming at the mouth for him to die. I do however believe that he should serve out the remainer of his sentence without any priveledges.
Bloodthirsty? Richard Ramirez is the one who was bloodthirsty. The only thing that saved others from being murdered by him; was him being arrested and imprisoned. People loathe him because of what he is. A murdering, slaughtering, butchering, evil, cold-blooded, cold-hearted evil person. You can call that judging him if you wish; but we can't overlook what he's done to so many people. God can forgive him, if Richard chooses to be sorry for his evil. But if he doesn't, then God won't even extend compassion and mercy to him.
What is a good person anyway? No, it's not being a Christian, it's not going to college, it's not any of the things you wrote. It all starts with our hearts; what is in our hearts. Good or evil.
John Wayne Gacy and Scott Peterson are not good men or "real catches" either.
It is wrong that when priests or other clergy men molest children; that the churches try to keep it quiet; and even just move them to another place where they can again, molest children. That they try to cover up the crimes committed against children.
As far as Americans hating Iraqis; not all of them do. Most of us can believe just like with any other country and culture; there are good people there. Just like not ALL Iraqis hate Americans and think Americans are evil.

[hissister]

Kung Fu Kitty; Christians are supposed to pray for their enemies, and even to pray for killers. A Christians concern should be that a serial killer will come to the full realization of his crimes; be remorsefull for them, and want to have a changed heart and mind. Christians shouldn't be so concerned that a serial killer will find "love" while serving time for his crimes. We should be more concerned about where the serial killer will spend eternity; not that he or she will have a partner or mate to have a romantic or sexual relationship with.
Normally, standing beside someone no matter what does not make a person gullible. But standing behind a serial killer (no matter what); who has no remore for his murders does not fall into the same category. Gullible is different than being vulnerable. Whenever anyone gives their heart and love to another person, we make ourselves vulnerable to hurt. Hurt if the other cheats on us, or hurts us in other ways. Being gullible means that you fall for whatever someone else tells you or tries to make you believe; even if it is totally false. Gullible means falling for the lies and manipulation of one who's intention is to deceive you. THAT is not what love is. I will repeat again that I do not believe Richard Ramirez is capable of loving another person. He doesn't even respect human life.
I, as a Christian, can pray for a killer, for Richard Ramirez and other serial killers; while at the same time belieiving that he should serve his sentence without being given priveledges. There is nothing hypocritical about that.
I don't believe it's anymore right for Ramirez and other killers to have a romantic relationship with someone on the outside than it is for killers to make money in prison off of their art, or anything else.
Why is there so much sympathy is this world for killers, for pedophiles, and others who victimize others? THAT'S what makes me feel that society is doomed.
If you cannot understand anything that Wind and others here are trying to say; then your mind is not in an okay state.
I agree with everything that Wind said. She has personally seen the victims, and the horrors of the ways they've been murdered. You sit back and feel sorry for Richard Ramirez and Doreen; who feel no sorrow for Richard's many victims and their families. Then you rant and rave at others who have a heart for those victims and their families.
You do need some help, Kung Fu Kitty.

[wind149]

Amen His Sister, I could not have said that more eloquently, except my anger and disgust bubble to surface long before I feel anything for those freaks and for Kitty for that matter. Girlfriend, she is not gonna get it no matter what we say, her mind is made up. While we all agree to disagree here, I take a personal affront when we get those PED LOVERS and now as I see it, SYMPATHY JUNKIES for serial killers and their whack-job spouses or groupies. These people need to go. I just tried to give a heads up what I lived through, because I gotta tell ya, it never leaves your head, and that is why anyone who works in law enforcement can burn out early. I used the leave it at the door approach, but I would discuss it with my deputies and other dispatchers, we were our own support system in a sense because our own spouses or significant others did not need to hear the gory details, nor did they want to, my ex did not even listen to the scanner, he preferred to not hear me give out the calls unless it involved me and one time I had a guy punch my lights out and he got to the office before my guys did and beat the stuffing right out of the guy. I ended up with a broken cheek bone and the jerk-off got 25 years for hitting me. It has been seven years now since I had to give up my career, but my whole being and mind-set is always for the victims and never the perp's. I think about Jessica Lunsford all the time,that little sweet, baby girl who was snapped from her bed by a POS career, pedophile, scumbag who raped that child for at least three days and then to cover up his crime, he made that child get in a garbage bag, tied her hands behind her back, telling her the whole time he was gonna bring her back to her Daddy and instead he threw her in a hole and buried her alive and the coroner estimated it took anywhere from 1-8 minutes for that angel to suffocate to death. Can you imagine the horror that child endured with that scuzzbag violating her little body and then to be buried with no way out???? How Mark Lunsford came to court everyday without wanting to waste that puke, the strength he had to muster and it yeah, Couey got the DP but it will be years before that scumbag dies ever so peacefully. And don't ya know on another board where I will never grace again, we had all kinds of ped lovers on HIS SIDE, whining about his awful childhood, his addictions, his fugly loser crackwhore sister did not love him enough, how he could not help himself and one TWISTED SISTER who went by the moniker of get this "crimewriter" baited me every chance she got because she thought of him as a lost soul, a misunderstood man, who she felt (GAG, PUKE, VOMIT) needed LOVE AND COMPASSION!!!!!!! Not nary a word about Jessie, all about that scumbag Couey!!! Can you imagine????? Same principle here with KRAZY KITTY! She feels empathy for the gruesome twosome, she thinks they are kindred spirits, it is such a bloody shame that they can't consumate their love beyond the visiting room and I am just about ready to puke as I write this. Clearly, some people need help here and we are the not the ones. The bible clearly says, "an eye for an eye" When this was written it did not mean sympathy for the sinner, but that they should have the same thing done to them and that should still apply. RR should have rode the chair all the way to hell to meet his "DADDY" 20 years ago. Sounds to me he ain't doing hard time. He might not be able to get his rocks off with his bridezilla, but he has it made! So while some of these groupies and bridezilla's dream about their loves, I sleep good every night, hateful, spiteful, pissed off!!! but then again, I live in the REAL WORLD!!!

[wind149]

Kitty,
I never carried a gun, dispatchers as a rule don't have to, but I can tell ya right now that I certainly know how to use one, but I do not possess one and nor do I want to. I think it is noble you help people that have afflictions, and that you care about them, and I can relate to that, but having empathy for sick puppies like RR and Doreen, I will never accept that, EVER! That dirtbag killed for pleasure, he got his rocks off raping and sodomizing innocent women and if you think I am going to buy the spin that he is a "kind and gentle" man, you are crazier than I thought. He is in a controlled, locked down facility, let him loose on the streets, you really think he would be satisfied playing house with Doreen?? People, with twisted minds like him are never going to be normal and yet, I suppose you would invite them to dinner??? I know exactly what he would do and bridezilla would be right along with him. I have not heard one iota of empathy out of you about the families or the victims, only about poor RR and poor, misuderstood Doreen. I just about puke now when I hear her blather on American Justice that "I am proud to have married Richard today" I would be proud to marry DONALD TRUMP!!!!! How in hell can you not be repulsed like the rest of us??? And a woman yet. I have read postings from men who think like you, that always think the man gets a rotten deal, like it was consensual sex and not rape and I can't help but be repelled by your mind-set toward these freaks?? He stopped being a human being the FIRST TIME he harmed someone and she stopped being one when she said I DO to loser, scumbag, short-eyed, twisted, POS! I suppose that RR could not help himself? Sounds like he did not have too bad a childhood and I have known people that had such a horrible one that you wonder how they ever survived it and my adoptive mother abused the piss out of me and I have never harmed anyone in my life. That sorry excuse is just that. I don't give a crap if they stopped feeding that scum tomorrow, if they let him wallow in his own filth for months, I don't give a crap if all he does is stare at walls, the last thing his victims saw was his evil face. SO you can live in LA LA Land, can't stop you, but I will be dammed if I will be personally attacked for being a normal functioning, human being that does have compassion, just not for loser freaks who put themselves out of society, and yeah, you can be the queen of denial all you want to be, knock yourself out!

[hissister]

Kung Fu Kitty; I've worked at both an assisted living home and a nursing home. I know how the residents can be either sweet or cruel and mean. I know how one working with residents in a nursing home (or assisted living home) has to have patience. The residents are there because they have to be, due to health or mental conditions (although some of them could be at home if they had family members who are capable of and/or willing to care for them). You say that if you worked in a jail; even a rapist would get the same care that you give to anyone else you care for. The difference is that those in nursing homes aren't there because of a choice they made to rape someone; or kill someone. Those in jail or prison who are doing time for rape or murder did make a choice to victimize someone else. And some of them made that choice repeatedly. Yes they're humans; but they're violent criminals.
You also said that those in prison won't have sex again. Wrong, they often have sex with other inmates; and they even rape other inmates. All their incoming and out-going mail should be read and screened before it gets to them; there are reasons for that. There are also reasons why guards watch them while they shower. I do believe that there are many in prisons who should not be there; like people who have been wrongfully arrested and charged. It's sad that those people are treated like criminals; but not sad that rapists, child molesters, and murderers are.
I've never critized you for wanting to correspond with an inmate. It's true if you want to do that, you have the right to. SOME of them do need someone on the outside that cares about them.
I don't understand how people can sympathize with rapists, child molesters, and murderers. A lot of them have had horrible lives; but not all of them. A lot of them have been abused and mistreated when they were a child. But that's no excuse for them choosing to abuse others and victimize others in the miriad of ways they have.
About some of them having never been shown any affection, or never having had a friend or boyfriend or girlfriend, etc. that loved them and cared about them: Let's take Chester Stiles for instance. He had many friends, and he had girlfriends. I'm sure he was shown love and caring in his life; but it didn't stop him from molesting and raping a little girl; and videotaping it.
You talk so much about showing compassion to these violent criminals. You've talked about how we, if we're Christians; should show the same compassion and mercy that to them that God would. I've not read anywhere in the Bible where Jesus would show more compassion and mercy to the people who physically harm others and murder others than he would to their victims. But you have more compassion and sympathy for voilent criminals than you do for their victims.
We always here about being the underdog. Aren't we supposed to be the underdog for victims; not the people who raped, or murdered them?
I hope you never have to go through the pain of having a family member murdered. But I can't help but wonder; if you did and if you had to look at the face of the person who killed your family member; what would you feel? Would you be thinking more about your murdered family member; or the killer? Who and what would your heart break more for; your family member and what they went through while they were being murdered; or the person who did that to them?

Wind149; you are an inspiration to me. You have seen such horrible things because of people like the ones that Kung Fu Kitty is dead set on speaking up for. I admire your determination for speaking up for the victims and even the families of the victims. You, like so many others who have been abused have chosen to take the right path in life. The path of speaking up for victims, the path of honor. Unlike those who use their abuse for harming others. And unlike those who show more compassion to them than to the victims.

I know this is a different subject; but it reminds me of the way Kung Fu Kitty has chosen to be angry at the wrong people. Have you heard about the church whose pastor and members protest the funerals of those who have died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? They carry signs about how the fallen heroes deaths were a judgement from God? They go to the funerals where grieving family members are; saying things like "God hates fags". And say that because "God hates fags", that God let these fallen heroes die as a judgement for them defending America; where homosexuality is embraced? The way it reminds me of Kung Fu Kitty's attitude and beliefs is that these people have chosen the wrong person or group as the enemy. Instead of them being angry at terrorists; and protesting anything that has to do with terrorism; they hatefully protest the funerals of men and women who have died in this war against terrorism. Instead of them protesting against the people who have sent our military into Iraq; they target the funerals of the fallen heroes and their grieving family members. The same way Kung Fu Kitty has chosen the wrong person or group of people to target. She doesn't speak up in condemnation of murderers; she speaks up against those who speak up against violent criminals receiving more sympathy than their victims.

Kung Fu Kitty; I want to say this one more time. Jesus did not and does not show more compassion, sympathy, and mercy for violent criminals than he did and does for their victims.

[wind149]

Do you want the address for the FL state prison so you can write and feel compassion for the babyraping, murdering scumbag who raped and buried alive a 9 year old for his own sadistic pleasures??? SHeeit, might as well open up your own web-site for other freak shows like you that just LOVE pedophiles and rapists, murderers and serial killers .RR does not deserve to be breathing right and I don't give a crap what you think, because you are the minority here and it does not take much to get banned so keep that in mind. As for whether inmates have sex with each other and why the inquiry? Plan on figuring out to help somebody get off in the visiting room? Rapes happen everyday in every prison, male or female. Consensual sex is hard to come by unless it is you and your celly hiding under a blanket. Gee, maybe if they wanted to continue to have sex maybe they should not have RAPED their victims? Rape is an act of violence, not sex. It is the power that these sick puppies like your darling Ricky get off on, seeing the terror in their eyes, listening to the screams of pain, while he pleasures himself all in the name of Satan and I am a sick puppy?????? You are cutting me down thinking I am this commando killer vigilante cop, and I am here to tell you if I KNEW where you worked I would give them a heads up about your fascination with serial killers and how much you love them and how they are just misunderstood people who need a hug and a cookie. I think any nursing home administration would be horrified to know they have a killer groupie taking care of their patients. How you only have empathy for the killers and not the victims and their families. Any nursing home I know would fire your sorry butt because they would see what you don't. You need help and I am here to tell you this is my last posting to you as I frankly am sick to death of you trying to turn this around to make you look like the wounded party and I am this bad, evil, hateful person because I don't give a crap about anyone in prison as they put themselves there and it is a choice to be either a good person or a bad person and I KNOW I am a good person. So live in your bubble all you want.

His Sister,
That whack-job group you speak of is from Kansas and they are all a pile of nut-jobs, spewing their hateful rhetoric such as their touched in the head theory that the war started because of homosexuality. They came to MI last year to "spread" the message of hate at a young soldier's funeral. But they got stopped in their tracks when a Christian Biker Group showed up along with the Freedom Riders Group and they would not let those scumbags near the church or the grave site. People tuned them out and paid more attention to the sad task of memorializing and burying a beloved member of their town. No audience, no march! They slithered back into their hole in Kansas and if the media would stop "advertising" for them, and what I mean by that is either the local or CNN manages to always let it be known where these whack-jobs are fixing to go to and they thrive on that. Ignore him like I am now doing to Krazy Kitty and His, I would do the same. She clearly is a nut-job in her own right and I don't have time to be baited by somebody so pathetic, that she loves the whole criminal element and instead of trying to rap with her, I have chose to push the ignore button and maybe you should do the same. No audience, or in some extreme cases, like an annoying fly, eventually it flies away. Other people liken this to "don't feed the trolls""!:biggrin:

[wind149]

His Sister, It just occurred to me that your brother was a murder victim that is still unsolved am I right? I saw The Glen Davenport, having not looked at it before and realized that he is a victim and you have searched for years for the truth and with many police departments now opening up cold cases, DNA is a major tool in forensics, and I have been astounded whenever I see a crime show like Cold Case on A&E or Forensic Files and they feature really old cases, like say from the 30's and amazingly enough the evidence from these cases for the most part, have been preserved and I watched last night a case from the 40's on a channel I get off my Dish, I think it is the Bio Channel and the police re-opened a murder/rape case and were able to pin it on a guy who looked good back then for it, was a traveling salesman and people said he had been in that area, but lacking in the forensic knowledge detectives enjoy today, they could only hope that someday, the person would be caught. What I found fascinating, was the fact that a semen stain on the girl's undies had been preserved very well and when it came time to test the undies, the DNA expert was able to get a bit of DNA, and then the detectives had to find a way to get a sample from bad guy. They confronted him one day and of course he denied everything from his sales route was no where near where the girl was found and he apparently over the years learned about DNA and refused to give a sample. Right there, usually brings my red flag waving in the breeze. Finally, detective he did not know followed him to a restaurant one day and when bad guy got up to leave, the guy grabbed his paper cup and lo and behold, it was the guy and as they did more digging before the trial, it was revealed that other girls had coming up missing in other states at around the same time frame. He was convicted and sentenced to 25 years and I felt vindicated and yet, I did not know any of the players. I also know that DNA has proved that some people were innocent and were released, and also how many, many, people it put behind bars. Refresh my memory on your brother girlfriend and we will take it from there.

[Tangerine]

did nt know if you knew this was here:
http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?t=280956

i hope that link works; im starting to feel like my mother when she's trying to program a vcr, lol

or better yet:
http://boards.crimelibrary.com/forumdisplay.php?f=477

[wind149]

Tangerine, Yes, I remember this case well. Sorry His Sister! You guys believe that he was murdered and so do I and I base it on the fact that Glen was afraid of the dark and why would he go hang himself when he was a happy child by all accounts?? So yes, His Sister run more of your thoughts to me on this, I am very interested and would like to help you, after all I still have cop friends and have ran things behind them many times to get their expert advice and how to play the game. The one thing some departments hate is when they have concluded their investigation, they have either got their man, or the case grows cold and the families feel like they are not doing enough, so they often turn to other agencies or private detectives, and the police department feels like their toes are being stepped on or questioning their integrity and they can clam right up, I believe it or not had it happen to me, whether I worked in LE or not. I started dating a cop from another state, three months into it, I realize something is not right with this guy so I break up with him and he proceeds to stalk me. When I complain to his chief, I become enemy number one for ratting on another cop and he refused to do anything about it and that was his downfall as I started digging into both of them and what I found out is they both were wife beaters and pedophiles still on the force! Not long afterward they both were fired and stripped of their badges and while I tried to have the puke arrested for raping and molesting his own daughters and step-daughters, the state chose not to prosecute because it was not currently being committed, like that was a big factor??? But I sleep at night knowing I outed these pig pukes and would do it again. So I do know how frustrated you are Sister and don't throw the towel in yet, many murders have been solved with less.

[Tangerine]

hey wind. i'm gonna read up on the case some more. i read alot of it about 2 months ago, but there's a lot to sort out. as far as the cops go, i do not trust them. not since i had the run in with the one who tased my dog. i'm sure there are alot of good cops out there, but there are a lot of bad ones too. its sad when egos get in the way of justice. good for you for outing those guys. it sounds like they needed a good butt-kicking. we probably should PM or start posting in the glen davenport discussion, since this thread is for RR.

ps: now i realize when you said you "saw the glen davenport," you meant the thread. i was thinking you meant his name on her avatar or else i wouldnt have posted the links. duh! i'm a natural blonde, ya know!

[hissister]

Kung Fu Kitty; I'm not here to defend myself as a Christian. I'm here to speak up for and defend victims; and also the families of victims.
I'll tell you how we got the impression that you feel no compassion for R.R's victims. You never talk about them. You have said that you "don't agree with what Richard did". But you don't say anything about the horrible things he did to his victims; you don't show any support for them or their families. The only family that you mentioned is Richard's family; how they are victims too. It is sad that they have to live with being related to him; but they were not raped, butchered, and slaughtered by him. They don't have to live on with the grief of having one among them that was one of Richard's slaughtered victims. You've talked about the things that people like Richard are deprived of in prison. You haven't talked about what his victims were deprived of; which is everything. You haven't talked about the families; who will never get to hold their loved one again, never get to hear their voices, see their faces, celebrate birthdays and holidays with ever again. Richard took all of that away from them; as well as cruelly and sadistically ending the lives of his victims. Why should he ever get to look at a woman's face again?
We are fully aware that you were defending Richard and Doreen. You have more defended Richard's "rights" (such as to have a wife after he was imprisoned for his horrendous crimes against other people), than you have defended his victims and the right that they had to live their lives. For them to go on to have future relationships or spouses; etc. You have defended Doreen who has sided with Richard, and defends him rather than his victims.
You know, quite awhile back I watched part of a t.v. interview with Charles Manson. He spoke about how he would like to be with a woman again. I say "Tsk, tsk, tsk". Prison is supposed to be a harsh, grim place for serial killers. People like Manson, Ramirez, and all other serial killers; do not deserve to ever be with a woman again. They do not deserve to be allowed to marry; if that is what they would like (for whatever reason) to do. Pedophiles would like to have another child to molest and rape again. But the prison system doesn't give them anything in relation to children. No pictures of children, no correspondence with children, etc. The same should go for serial killers like Ramirez.
There have always been angels of "mercy" for a weird cause. Feeling pity and compassion for people like Ramirez is one of those weird causes. It's even a sick cause. For someone to be able to hear about and be fully aware of the things that someone like Ramirez did to other people, but then to choose to defend his "right" to live out the rest of his life with a wife and to have other priveledges is nothing short of bizzare.
There is compassion here at CL, Kung Fu Kitty; but that compassion is not for vicious criminals. And it is not for those who prefer to defend the "rights" of a serial killer.

Wind149; it did my heart good for you to tell me about the Christian Biker group that showed up at the funeral for the young soldier, and wouldn't let those protesters get near the church or the grave site.
Yes, Glen's case is still unsolved.
Thank you both; Wind149 and Tangerine.
Wind; I think you're right that it would be best to ignore Kung Fu Kitty. To her, this is all just a debate. To us, it's much, much more. It's personal; it's the pain and heartache of people being molested, raped, tortured, murdered. I think there are people (like Doreen and Kung Fu Kitty) who do have an attraction to the criminal element; and to the criminals themselves. When I wrote one of my first posts, and mentioned how some women are attracted to the "bad boys"; that was not a criticism. And what you responded with about how if the these rough types can treat a women well; is so true. But I think women like Doreen and Kung Fu Kitty, take the being attracted to the bad boys to a whole different, disturbed level. I think they might think "treating a woman well" is only things like if he can say the right things to her, if he acts attracted to her, puts on a show of being a good man (despite if he has done attrocious things to other people); and those types of things. You and I and all the other normal women know that treating a women well is much deeper than that. It's treating a woman well because he has respect for women (and children and even other men; just human life in general), and would not go around killing some women and then acting like he can love another.

[wind149]

Hey Sisters,
Both of you guys are right on and I could not have said that better what you said to KFK! I think she might not post anymore as some of these losers that try to bait people into getting pissed off, when the attention is not focused on their rhetoric they have a way of disappearing and that is exactly what they need to do. She is not going get it, so I have chosen to hit my ignore button as she isn't worth getting banned for. Yes, the bikers would not let them whack-jobs anywhere near the service or anywhere near the family even. We last year, had the KKK come to town as a grand poobah lives down the road from me and they too, found out quick like they were not wanted here either and left the area pretty fast. I have a bi-racial god-daughter and luckily in the state of VT where people don't care what color you are, she rarely had an issues with folks as I always had her back. She is married now, has kids and lives in FL. I gotta go but I want to finish what I have yet to say to both of you lovely, caring ladies and I will talk at ya later and I am gonna PM both of you as well. Peace Linda

[hissister]

Wind149; the KKK is another of those groups of people who are so off course. It's pathetic.
Of course KFK will never understand. She's right though; that we can never make her see our "point of view", as she calls. (To her it's a point of view; she can't see the difference between right and wrong). And she's right that we refuse to see hers. Because we can see that the victims (though they're dead because they were MURDERED) have more rights than the murderers.
There is a very good reason why I didn't mention R.R.'s family; they weren't any of his MURDER victims. Yes, there are 2 sides to every story, as she likes to say. But the victims don't get to tell theirs. People like Ramirez silenced their voices.
I speak for the victims who have been molested, raped, murdered. I do feel for the families of the criminals; but that's not who I am here to speak up for. They can tell their stories to the world; the victims of people like Ramirez can't.
Strange how people like KFK are so big on having their rights; such as having the right to write letters to criminals. And talking about the rights of people like Miss Doreen to marry R.R. But when it comes to the rights of the people R.R. savagely, brutally, sadistically tortured, raped, slaughtered; no mention whatsoever. Maybe she thinks they wouldn't have liked to stay alive, be able to write letters, and marry.
Her freedoms to choose what she wants to do, Doreen's rights to do what she wants to do, and R.R.'s rights to do something (marry) are somehow more important than the rights of the people that R.R. so callously took the lives of.
I'm 54 years old. I was once young, and I was a total music lover. My type of music was heavy metal. And I have to say that I still like it; but not today's version of heavy metal. To me, today's version is not heavy metal. The old stuff was real heavy metal. I was always aware of groupies. I saw lots of them at concerts, and I saw lots of them at the clubs I went to that had live heavy metal bands. I could see how the band members do "interact" with the groupies; but laugh at them. They're a joke to the musicians. But they do have their "usefulness" to the musicians. I think the killer groupies are the same way; the killers find a use for them. And the killer groupies are happy to be used in this way. What angels of mercy they are.
I recall a recent reply by KFK referring to people giving "lip service" to God. Wasn't it she that first referred to God by saying people should extend the same compassion and mercy to people like R.R. that God would? She can give "lip service" to God in that way, but didn't like it when I said that God does not have more compassion and mercy for killers than for their victims. That's when it became "lip service to God".
I also noticed that in one of her posts she wrote "Killing is killing, whether for duty, profit, or fun". Strange that she's quoting one of R.R.'s very quotes. Why would a person quote something that a killer like Ramirez quoted? Does it come from the same kind of mindset that Ramirez has?
By the way; killing for duty is quite different than killing for profit or fun. For Ramirez (and KFK) to state that killing for duty is the same as killing for profit or fun; is pretty frightening. Our Armed Forces (for example) are sent to war; that's quite different than killing people for profit or for the fun of it. But leave it to a cold-blooded murderer like Ramirez to say something like that.

[wind149]

Heavy metal, that's me! All I did in the 80's it seems was work hard and play hard! I must have seen every metal band there was and I still go to rock concerts now! This summer I went to see Poison, RATT, Dokken, OZ, Vince Neil, Quiet Riot and Slaughter. Since I have lived in MI, I have seen Foreigner, Night Ranger, Ted Nugent, Def Leppard (Love that Joe, Leather pants Elliott) Warrant, and Bon Jovi who I fell in love with the minute I heard "Slippery When Wet" album! My favorites include the above mentioned, Motley Crue, ACDC, Judas Priest, Kiss, Queen, Boston, Aerosmith, Van Halen, Sammy Haggar, and God knows just about every other artist like John Mellancamp, Elton John. All my CD's are rock, but I like some country groups like Rascal Flatts and Montgomery Gentry. As for RR that pig had on an ACDC hat on when arrested and I remember some lame people had the gall to say they CAUSED him to kill, yeah right! Remember Led Zepplin was on the hot seat for subliminal messages in their music because Jimmy Page liked Allistair Crowley who was a satanist? If you ask me rap crap does far more harm to young minds that our music ever did. Have you ever heard Steve Tyler tell fans to call their women ho's or glorify murder? I am glad you took my advice and see my PM for further details. I am going to start a favorite music thread on Open Discussion as it always fun to see what people like or dislike, who thinks so and so is hot ,and who is one of the best rock groups that ever head banged! I work in the barn and I am always cranking out my tunes and one horse, I swear to God is a head banger himself! This morning I was listening to Queen and he was shaking his head almost like he was enjoying the music, it was cute. So look for my stroll down memory lane and give it up for?????

[nately]

I've been reading this thread in amazement. At Doreen and Kungfu Kitty.
If there is any lack of empathy and compassion it is coming from the both of you. It sounds like the fact he didnt kill children makes his crimes less bad or something. I just dont understand this discussion and highlighting the children's cases that got raped or otherwise badly hurt and damaged. Does it make RR a less of an evil man if he hadn't done that? I dont get it. (and in fact he hAS! Where is your ladies compassion knowing RR raped a young boy, while his mother was tied and couldnt help him and in turn the boy couldnt be helped by his mom. I mean, isn't this the ultimate act of sadism?
It goes beyond me both Doreen and Kungfu Kitty cant see the complete seriousness of such a tragedy.

I think the Satan stuff of RR is just another way to show himself (and the world) he is a superior kind of 'human being', different from others as he states here:

You don't understand me. You are not expected to. You are not capable of it. I am beyond your experience. I am beyond good and evil, Legions of the night--night breed--repeat not the errors of the Night Prowler and show no mercy. I will be avenged. Lucifer dwells within us all. That's it.„

—Richard Ramirez's statement before he received sentencing at his trial

You see the thing is, he DOESN'T want to be understood and he gets off on this and his saying he is beyond good and evil. He is clearly delusional. Don't have pity or compassion for that!! Anyone who studied narcissism and sociopathy a bit (or extensively) can see this all feeds his sick ego. People are cockroaches to these types of people. They get OFF on it seeing themselves this way and don't want to be understood at ALL by people (as that might mean, if they are indeed understood, their 'specialness' and grandiosity is threatened, and they don't want that, they cannot handle it as it would mean the personality they have will collapse). They need to be different from other people in order to sustain their superiority, or 'other-ness' or 'uniqueness'.

Sociopaths (and narcissists) are not able to be cured. EVER.

I also wonder Doreen (and Kungfu Kitty) what your experiences will be if you'd actually LIVE with this man in real life. You guess he will be angelic? You think he wont start abusing you, mentally, physically or emotionally? Ever thought of that. You see, what he can do to others, he can do to you, too.

This is why I dont understand how people can actually fall in love with such sociopaths. It blows my mind.
I knew a couple of narcissists/sociopaths (I was unaware at first they were). Not the (serial) killer type, though, but most sociopaths are not killers. But enough to do great damage, emotionally.

Must say I felt a bit disturbed reading a couple of posts, but also quite educational.
:seeya:

[hissister]

Wind149; so much of the 80's music was good (but I did not like Devo and Flock of Seagulls; and those other types of bands). I fell for heavy metal around the mid '70's (see I am old). Bands like Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, etc. I've just got this thing about guitars and guitar music. Once I got my neice and I kicked out of a pizza parlor. We had been walking, with me carrying my cassette player so I could listen to Black Sabbath. We decided to go into this pizza parlor to get a cold glass of cola. I didn't like the music that someone was playing on the jukebox, so I turned on my Black Sabbath cassette (it really wasn't THAT loud). The manager came over and told us to leave. I did feel bad about it, and still do; that I had forced the other patrons to listen to my music; and Black Sabbath at that. I was aware that Black Sabbath was being called Satanic music, and I had heard about Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin being into the whole Crowley (Satanist) thing; but I listened to their music, not for the words, but for Tony Iomi's and Jimmy Page's guitar. Like you I've never fallen for how people blame music for what some people do. I agree about the rap crap "music" and how awful the lyrics are. I cannot understand how any female can listen to it and be supportive of those rappers and the ways they refer to women.

nately; I do agree with almost everything that you wrote. But I have to say that I have not seen Wind say anything in reference to thinking "the fact that he (Ramirez) didn't kill children makes his crimes less bad or something". I know that Wind despises children being molested, and that she does believe that that is part of what makes R.R. so despicable. I do believe that R.R. had raped children. He has no respect or love for even children; there was nothing in his evil mind to stop him from doing that.
I so agree with what you said about Ramirez using his Satanism to show himself as some kind of superior human being. People like him view others as less superior because they're not "enlightened" or something.
I don't understand how you could write about if Wind had lived with Ramirez and if she would have thought he would be angelic, etc. Wind has made it clear that she knows that Ramirez would not be a different person to any woman that he might have lived with. She's made it clear that even Doreen would not be safe from his savagry if she actually lived with him. Wind is not in anyway deceived by Ramirez. She has no compassion or pity for him (she's made that abundantly clear). R.R. is not a nice person; and the man that Doreen sees is not the real Richard Ramirez.
I think you have great insight into the mind of R.R. I would like to hear more of what you have to say about him; and others like him. I thinks it's very interesting and so right on.
I think Doreen is totally deceived by Ramirez; but I don't think KFK is. I think KFK knows full well what and who the real R.R. is. She seems to have studied up a lot on him. She seems to be almost, if not completely devoted to him; even literally quoting something that he himself has said. She comes across as more of a follower of R.R. than anything else. It makes me wonder if she has the same kind of mentality that he has. I'm not saying she's a Satanist, or a killer; but she seems to be so "into" him. She sounds like she's either fascinated with either him or at least some of his types of beliefs.

[hissister]

After I posted my last post; I remembered that after I had been listening to Black Sabbath for awhile in the mid '70's that my sister started to have horrible dreams. I stopped playing the Black Sabbath albums, and my sister's horrible dreams stopped.
I believe we have to make our choices and decisions in life based on how they will affect other people. Even though I thought that Tony Iomi was an awesome guitar player, and I really liked his talent; I gave up listening to the albums for my sister.
We may really be into something, but if it has a bad effect on someone else; we should think about that and not what we want for ourselves.
I don't listen to any old Black Sabbath anymore, because the last time I even heard a Black Sabbath song on a radio (years and years ago), it reminded me of how terrified my sister used to be from her dreams.
If our personal likes can affect other people in a bad way; we should care more about people than what we personally like.
R.R. and anyone like him can choose what they want to do in and with their lives; but not when it harms someone else. We each have a personal responsibility not only to ourselves, but to others.

[nately]

where are you getting your infomation? i have heard this line before,and yet,i cant find documentation on it. besides hearsay websites who cant even get the victims names right.
who was this boys mother? lets throw some names out there.

Kitty, you then haven't been looking for info properly, if I may say so.
You do a Google on ramirez and child and rape. You will find info on it. It is there.

[nately]

Hi Hissister :)

I think there has been a misunderstanding. I wasn't referring to Wind. I was to Doreen and Kungfu Kitty. I also found info on RR having raped children, through Google. The info is there, he did those things to kids.


nately; I do agree with almost everything that you wrote. But I have to say that I have not seen Wind say anything in reference to thinking "the fact that he (Ramirez) didn't kill children makes his crimes less bad or something". I know that Wind despises children being molested, and that she does believe that that is part of what makes R.R. so despicable. I do believe that R.R. had raped children. He has no respect or love for even children; there was nothing in his evil mind to stop him from doing that.

Again, a misunderstanding about Wind :). And I agree with Wind that RR deceives every woman (or man). This is the nature of the beast (sociopaths) and that the man that Doreen sees (and WANTS to see) is not the real RR.

For sociopaths (and narcissists in the NPD category-Narcissistic Personality Disorder) one of the hallmarks is Grandiosity. The grandiosity develops because they themselves feel like cockroaches (to use the term again), but meaning they feel lower-than-low-than-the-lowest in regards to themselves (and others). The grandiosity is as a compensation for those feelings, as they cannot deal with that, it threatens their Self and if they would allow these feelings they fear they will be 'annihilated' (and to be fair, who actually COULD deal with feeling this way to such level?).
They are TERRIFIED of being actually 'nothing' and that's why they need to be superior and all-powerfull and for that they need to make others be/feel like 'nothing' (as a defense against their own feelings of worthlessness and nothingness). So what they do (sociopaths/narcissists) is make others feel the unbearable feelings they themselves cannot handle and inflict it on their victims. Like some kind of projection or absolving of their own 'badness'.
This is all In My Opinion :). But Ive done a lot of reading and this info can be found anywhere in books and on the net about sociopathy and narcissism.

It follows (or maybe it is the cause, who knows?) that they cannot have any feelings of value for other people, and life. No empathy (and this is correct, as RR hates everyone and everything). He needs to destroy everyone with all might as to ward off his own feelings of loathing and inferiority. He needs to be superior, at ALL COST!

He cannot put himself on the same level with other people, as that would mean, to him, death/annihilation (of his ego, of his personality). So, being understood by others, is a big no-no for them, as that would mean they are human beings. And being a human being is in their eyes weak (they compare weakness to being cockroaches= their own inferiority and they can't be that way as that would mean 'death' to them).
Im not an expert and it is all IMO.

He could have chosen 'God' (that he is Godlike), but he chose Satan. And he saw himself as special being the helper of Satan. This is clearly delusional. But surely his way of being grandiose, some ultimate power of destruction in his hands, to again, compensate for his inferiority.

Ok, there is so much more stuff to this,hissister, but will leave it at this for now.
I think if one is able to grasp the basics of sociopathy and narcissism and understand what it is, one can understand a lot about the world. That is my experience, anyway:hat:


I so agree with what you said about Ramirez using his Satanism to show himself as some kind of superior human being. People like him view others as less superior because they're not "enlightened" or something.
I don't understand how you could write about if Wind had lived with Ramirez and if she would have thought he would be angelic, etc. Wind has made it clear that she knows that Ramirez would not be a different person to any woman that he might have lived with. She's made it clear that even Doreen would not be safe from his savagry if she actually lived with him. Wind is not in anyway deceived by Ramirez. She has no compassion or pity for him (she's made that abundantly clear). R.R. is not a nice person; and the man that Doreen sees is not the real Richard Ramirez.
I think you have great insight into the mind of R.R. I would like to hear more of what you have to say about him; and others like him. I thinks it's very interesting and so right on.

I think KFK is also decieved by RR, whether she is a follower or would be his partner. I also wondered about her having the same kind of mentality as RR.
If she wouldnt be deceived, she wouldnt be saying the things she does about him. Simple as that. No offense to KFK, but it cant be clearer than that.

I think Doreen is totally deceived by Ramirez; but I don't think KFK is. I think KFK knows full well what and who the real R.R. is. She seems to have studied up a lot on him. She seems to be almost, if not completely devoted to him; even literally quoting something that he himself has said. She comes across as more of a follower of R.R. than anything else. It makes me wonder if she has the same kind of mentality that he has. I'm not saying she's a Satanist, or a killer; but she seems to be so "into" him. She sounds like she's either fascinated with either him or at least some of his types of beliefs.

Nice talking to you :seeya:

[nately]

wether richard has raped children has yet to be proven.i have not seen it on any list of charges brought against him,so therefore i do not believe it. his crimes were horrible enough,why do people have to make things up to make others hate himn more?

The facts he hasn't been convicted for the raping of children, doen't mean he didn't do it. As I said in my other post, you should do a 'Google' on him and child and rape and you will see stuff pop up. And it is not stuff that is made up to make him be hated more. It is FACT.


regarding satanists thinking themselves superior. every religion does that wether its christianity,satanism,muslim,whatever. they all think they are the right way,and everyone else is wrong. that is the way it has always been .

I didnt mean he thinks Satanism is superior in the religious sense (as compared to other religions). I mean that when he is the helper of Satan, that makes him powerful, superior etc. Just like a sociopath who thinks he is Godlike, RR thinks he is Satan-like.


i dont think richard is an angel. but i do find him quite intelligent,and has many similar interests,which is why i write him.

Keep in mind that one of the ways for sociopaths to get people in their lifes, is to mimic similar interests. The interests may be totally fake (big chance!).

I just wonder, KFK, that if you know he is a sociopath and understand what that means, how come you cannot see that what he presents to you (and Doreen) is all a fake persona? Im really puzzled by that.
The Good side he shows you is the fake him, the false him. The bad things he has done, his bad side, that is the real him. It follows that he has no Good Side, but is very adept at using ways to create the illusion of having a Good Side. But it is false.

All my opinion.

[nately]

nately.
i can google up a site on lesbian sasquatch,it doesnt make it a fact. any fool can create a website and fill it with inaccuracies. how about youy link me to some of these sites?

http://www.roadkillerrekordz.nl/dannyramirez/aboutrichardramirez.htm

Richard Ramirez’ list of victims:

1975---Working at a hotel near his hometown El Paso Richard Ramirez tied up and raped one of the female guests in her room. When her husband walked in Ramirez was beaten up and handed over to the police. Richard however did get away by stating he’d got seduced by the woman, her husband arriving at the hotel-room unexpected.

June 28, 1984---Jennie Vincow, 79, Glassell Park. Her throat was slashed. Murder, burglary.

February, 1985---In separate incidents two young girls were abducted. A six years old was molested and dumped somewhere. A nine years old girl was raped and left in the vicinity of her house.

March 17, 1985---Dayle Okazaki, 34, and Maria Hernandez, 20, Rosemead. Okazaki was shot to death. Hernandez survived an attack outside the apartment before The Night Stalker went inside. Murder, attempted murder, burglary, robbery.

March 17, 1985---Tsai Lan Yu, 30, Monterey Park. Dragged from her car and shot. Murder.

March 20, 1985---An eight years old girl is being abducted and raped several times, Eagle Rock.

March 27, 1985---Vincent Zazzara, 64 and his wife Maxine, 44, Whittier. Stabbed and mutilated. Two counts of murder, post mortem mutilation, sex charges.

May 14, 1985---Harold Wu was shot to death, his wife Jean Wu was raped, Monterey Park. Murder, burglary, robbery, sex charges.

May 30, 1985---Ruth Wilson, 41, Burbank. Survived by vowing to Satan. Burglary, robbery, sex charges.

June 1, 1985---Malvia Keller, 83, and Blanche Wolfe, 79, Monrovia. Keller was bludgeoned to death and died July 15, and Wolfe managed to survive. Satanic symbols were scrawled in various places. Murder, attempted murder, robbery, sex charges.

June 2, 1985---Edward F. Wildgans, 29, was shot in the head. He died two days later. His girlfriend Nancy Brien was raped. Murder, sex charges.

June 27, 1985---Patty Higgins, 32 years old, Arcadia. Killed in her home, her throat slashed. Murder.

July 2, 1985---Mary Louise Cannon, 75, Arcadia. Beaten and throat slashed. Murder, burglary.

July 5, 1985---Deirdre Palmer, 16, Sierra Madre. Attempted murder, burglary.

July 7, 1985---Joyce Lucille Nelson, 61, Monterey Park. Beaten to death. Murder, burglary.

July 7, 1985---Linda Fortuna, 63 years old, Monterey Park. Survived attempted rape when The Night Stalker couldn’t get an erection. Burglary, robbery, attempted sex charges.

July 20, 1985---Max, 66, and Lela Kneiding, 64, Glendale. Both shot to death. Two counts of murder, robbery, post mortem mutilation.

July 20, 1985---Chitat, 32, and Sakima Assawahem, 29, Sun Valley. Chitat was shot to death. His son was beaten and Sakima was raped twice while she had to vow to Satan. Murder, robbery, burglary, sex charges.

August 5, 1985---Christopher, 38, and Virginia Petersen, 27, Northridge. Both survived being shot in the head while they were in bed. Two murder-attempts.

August 8, 1985---Ahmed Zia, 35, Diamond Bar. Shot while sleeping. His wife Suu Kya Zia, 28, was handcuffed, beaten and raped, but survived. Murder, robbery, burglary, sex charges.

August 17, 1985---Mr. Pan was shot to death, Mrs. Pan was terribly wounded, San Francisco. Satanic symbols were scrawled upon the wall as well as the phrase ‘Jack The Knife’. Murder, burglary, robbery.

August 25, 1985---William Carns got shot dead and his fiancée Renata Gunther was raped while she had to vow to Satan. Murder, burglary, robbery, sex charges.

So, are you gonna discredit this information, because the source might not be good enough?
Do some more googling, you will find more/the same.

[nately]

This would be the case in which the 8-year-old son was brutally sodomized, while his mother being tied up.

On July 20, 1985, Ramirez broke into the Glendale home of 66-year old Maxson Kneiling and his wife Lela, also 66. Ramirez shot both of them in the head and mutilated their corpses. Just hours later Ramirez struck again. This time in Sun Valley, where he broke into the home of 32-year-old Chitat Assawahem and his wife Sakima, 29. Ramirez shot Chitat as he slept and then raped and beat his wife. Ramirez then tied up Sakima and gathered up $30,000 in cash and jewelry. He was not yet ready to leave though and turned his anger on the couple's eight-year-old son, whom he brutally sodomized before leaving.


http://crimemagazine.com/03/richardramirez,1105.htm.
Written by David Lohr, who has a section on this forum, I believe.

[hissister]

Nately; I am so sorry I misunderstood. Please accept my apologies. I will write more later when I have more time; but I wanted to quickly apologize for misreading; thinking you were referring to Wind. Thank you for being so gracious when you saw that I had misunderstood.

[Tangerine]

I also wonder Doreen (and Kungfu Kitty) what your experiences will be if you'd actually LIVE with this man in real life. You guess he will be angelic? You think he wont start abusing you, mentally, physically or emotionally? Ever thought of that. You see, what he can do to others, he can do to you, too.


this is a good question. lets see if kitty will give an answer.