WAS it a Doctor??

[Icculus]

I've read so many theories by now with conflicting "factual" information, I don;t know what to believe anymore. In Gilmore's book, a rather un-intellectual, non-educated, non-doctor was the stated killer...he made a strong argument for this possibility, but I still find it hard to believe a doctor didn;t perform this "operation" of severing Short's body in half.

However, Hodel's book made an interesting point, which if true, is VERY strong evidence supporting his theory IMO. In his book, he states someone connected to the police force at the time of the murder confided that the LE KNEW who the killer was, and it was a doctor who lived on Franklin Avenue, but he had bribed the department to "lose" evidence pointing to him, then fled the country. Hodel's father WAS a doctor who lived on Franklin Avenue, with plenty of money, who left the U.S. soon after the murder. Again, if true, isn't this too coincidental to be coincidence?

Any thoughts on whether a doctor in fact HAD to have been the killer, or if it is possible that someone un-educated medically/surgically was even capable?

Thanks in advance for any input :beer:

[2L8 4A D8]

Yes, how horrifying and sad. What could she have possibly done to deserve such a horrible death? As far as I know, nothing like that type of killing ever happened again in L.A. I stand corrected if I am wrong.

JMO and MOO!!

[Amicus]

Check out this 48 Hours mystery about a deceased doctor It's better than some of the theories I have seen put out there.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/23/48hours/main657318.shtml

There used to be someone who posted on usenet that her father was the killer in this case. I can't remember the argument. She was not too tightly wrapped and didn't really marshall facts. She and Michael Newton wrote a book called Daddy Was the Black Dahlia killer.

Wow, I didn't realize this case was still being discussed! This is one that has always bothered me, still unsolved.

I have always thought the killer had to have some medical knowledge at least, and wondered about someone who maybe failed to make it all the way to being a "doctor". Now I'm reading the link, this Hodel is very interesting, very likely, imho.

Plz forgive me as it has been years, and I don't remember the details of the case... but there was a man, while staying in a rundown boarding house, died in a fire, fell asleep w/ a cigarette? Argh, I can't recall, but he was my main suspect. ;)

As to the woman, Janice Knowlton of - Daddy was the killer... IMO & MOO -- That was 15 minutes of fame. Now she may well believe this, BUT I just couldn't see it.

I'm going to have to read this book! Does he go so far as to say, this was probably my father as the killer?

You've all seen this I'm sure, just for anyone popping in - this site has a good summary of everything, and a review of the books available.
http://www.bethshort.com/dahhome.htm

So, my vote is a doctor, or wannabe doctor, or a vet, or... I'm no good at ruling anything out! I'm very interested to hear what others have thought on this one. I find it so sad for the victim & family, no answers, a heinous horrid murder, no peace. I hope some day the answers will be found, and beautiful Elizabeth Short can finally rest at peace.

[herlock h.]

Hi MFM; I read the book and found it creepy and fascinating. He actually does (I'm pretty sure!) say that he thinks his father did it. Read the book. Some weird stuff in there. The father also sexually abused his daughter. It all seems very possible and likely according to the son, too many coincidences.

Let us know what you think.


Herlock

[Grins]

Hello to all.
Steve Hodel's book, BLACK DAHLIA AVENGER: A Genius for Murder, has come out in soft-cover with an update containing evidence collected since the first publication.
The LAPD bugged the entire Dr.Hodel house and this alone establishes that he was a suspect. This edition has info from the transcripts of the bugging and other material from LAPD files.

Most impressive to me in the book is the fact that the author identified the printing on the notes the killer sent as his father's. I know my father's printing as soon as I see it. Don't you?

As I look at the comparisons, I also see the similarities. You do not have to be an expert to see the peculiarities of form repeated in the known specimens and the questioned documents.

Would you all give us your opinions on this point?

[Rayny]

For anyone who's not checked out the crime library, they have two separate articles on this case. The 1st link has already been posted on this board in the poll thread, but here is another from the site talking more about Black Dahlia Avenger.

I love reading and watching anything I can about this case. I once went out on the web in search of autopsy pics from the crime and these are the most disturbing photos I've ever seen and I've checked many thru the years.

There is no doubt in my mind that this was a doctor and after listening to what Hodel had to say, I think it very well could have been his father. It's also very possible that LE knew he was responsible at the time and covered for him too. It's kind of odd that the father carried a photo of Elizabeth in his wallet till his death too.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/dahlia/7.html?sect=7

[DiddleySquat]

Originally posted by Grins
Hello to all.
Steve Hodel's book, BLACK DAHLIA AVENGER: A Genius for Murder, has come out in soft-cover with an update containing evidence collected since the first publication.
The LAPD bugged the entire Dr.Hodel house and this alone establishes that he was a suspect. This edition has info from the transcripts of the bugging and other material from LAPD files.

Most impressive to me in the book is the fact that the author identified the printing on the notes the killer sent as his father's. I know my father's printing as soon as I see it. Don't you?

As I look at the comparisons, I also see the similarities. You do not have to be an expert to see the peculiarities of form repeated in the known specimens and the questioned documents.

Would you all give us your opinions on this point? My opinion: I found it credible. It's not conclusive proof, but Hodel presents a believable theory with some very interesting evidence to back it up.

Jack Anderson Wilson killed the Black Dahlia. Check out this link, theres some intersting info. http://www.williamtrasmussen.com/

[Grins]

In the pic with bare shoulders I felt she was dead. Did you?
They say an expert can tell by ears and measurements of facial features.
Ears are unique!

[DiddleySquat]

Originally posted by Grins
Steve Hodel's book, BLACK DAHLIA AVENGER: A Genius for Murder, has come out in soft-cover with an update containing evidence collected since the first publication.
The LAPD bugged the entire Dr.Hodel house and this alone establishes that he was a suspect. This edition has info from the transcripts of the bugging and other material from LAPD files.

Most impressive to me in the book is the fact that the author identified the printing on the notes the killer sent as his father's. I know my father's printing as soon as I see it. Don't you?

As I look at the comparisons, I also see the similarities. You do not have to be an expert to see the peculiarities of form repeated in the known specimens and the questioned documents.

Would you all give us your opinions on this point? I would also say that I found Hodel's research and personal recollections extremely persuasive. It's not just the coincidences about the car and the photographs (one of them is undeniably Ms. Short), but the author's own insights on his father's bizarre behavior (i.e., Hodel's sister Tamara and her allegations) and the former detective's logical explanation of what he claims was a careful cover-up.

Yes, the story still has a lot of mystery to it and nothing can take that away. It's one of the country's most fascinating "unsolved" murders. But I personally think I know who the killer was, thanks to that fascinating Hodel book!

:seeya:

[Anthea Delano]

Originally posted by DiddleySquat
I would also say that I found Hodel's research and personal recollections extremely persuasive. It's not just the coincidences about the car and the photographs (one of them is undeniably Ms. Short), but the author's own insights on his father's bizarre behavior (i.e., Hodel's sister Tamara and her allegations) and the former detective's logical explanation of what he claims was a careful cover-up.

Yes, the story still has a lot of mystery to it and nothing can take that away. It's one of the country's most fascinating "unsolved" murders. But I personally think I know who the killer was, thanks to that fascinating Hodel book!

:seeya:

I read the son's book, too and I totally agree with you.

[Grins]

Originally posted by Anthea Delano


I read the son's book, too and I totally agree with you. Hi Anthea Delano. Any word on the Black Dahlia movie?

[Grins]

Originally posted by CotNPicken



The problem in this case is probably not lack of evidence, but weak and ineffectual interviews with suspects. Often the problem with solving sadistic homocides is that sadists are masters of manipulation and will attempt to direct an investigation to prevent exposure of guilt. These offenders often display an exaggerated sense of self and consider themselves intellectually superior to law enforcement. (Arrogance, while not a defining characteristic, is often associated with certain professionals such as doctors or lawyers.) Therefore, the investigators of a sadistic crime must be well prepared before conducting any interview with a suspect. The investigators must endeavor to learn as much as possible about the suspect and its behaviors and be aware of his strengths and weaknesses. Poorly planned investigations and interviews of primary suspects often fail.

Despite their apparent sophistication, sadists are likely to consent to be interviewed, even after being advised of their rights to remain silent. They most often believe they are in no danger of divulging any kind detrimental information about themselves. More importantly, they expect to learn more information from the interviewer than they provide by participating in answering questions. From the questions asked, the offenders hope to determine how much the investigator knows regarding the crimes and the current status of the investigation.

An interviewer should be superior to the offender in every way including physical stature, personality, and intelligence. The interviewer must appear confident, relaxed, and calm. Any personal feelings about the crime or the suspect must not be revealed. The interviewer should not engage in any kind of 'friendly' conversation with the offender, as this will cause him to lose respect for the interviewer and provide the offender with an opportunity to manipulate the conversation. The interview should be conducted in the most formal and professional manner.

Because these kind of offenders enjoy attention, the interviewer should be prepared for an exhausting and very lengthy interview. Questions should be planned in advance and be structured in such a way that the offender cannot evade a line of questioning with a simple "yes" or "no" answer. Posing questions in this manner will reflect the interviewer's superior intelligence and knowledge, does not provide additional information to the suspect, and may facilitate incriminating disclosures by the subject.

Above all, the suspect must not be allowed to control any responses from the interviewer. In all likelihood, the offender will probably attempt to shock or antagonize the interviewer. The interviewer must be prepared for this and keep in mind that suitable and appropriate reactions are those of indifference and objectivity.

It would be interesting to read more regarding the interviewing techniques utilized during the investigation of this crime. Outstanding analysis!!! I agree and have seen cases harmed and lost for the failures you describe. This is one of them.
Dr. Hodel had a genius IQ to make matters worse. He taunted police even when he knew they had 'bugged' his home.

By contrast, the police in the case of serial killer William Sapp prepared for 9 months and questioned the killer with patience and a knowledge of the basics you outlined.
The actual interview lasted 18+ hours over 3 days. There was a cabinet in the room and police drew items out as the sessions developed. The killer was led to observe that they had their *bleep* together!
This is revealed in the book HOMETOWN KILLER by Carol J. Rothgeb. Info at
www.hometownkiller.com

[pulse]

< However, I am having a hard time believing that the pics are of Elizabeth Short, only one of them come close and the two pics don't even look like the same person. >

yes, so agree, hodel's theory falls completely apart SO early on in his book, with the publication of these pics of 2 entirely different women - as 'proof' that the dahlia had been in the company of his father. if he had only left out those pics, i may well have bought the whole thing hook, line, and sinker!

my take: hodel has an enormous grudge against his father, perhaps rightfully so, but this is the WHY of how his book is so persuasive: HUGE unhealed resentments can be VERY compelling.

[Amicus]

Originally posted by pulse

yes, so agree, hodel's theory falls completely apart SO early on in his book, with the publication of these pics of 2 entirely different women - as 'proof' that the dahlia had been in the company of his father. if he had only left out those pics, i may well have bought the whole thing hook, line, and sinker!

my take: hodel has an enormous grudge against his father, perhaps rightfully so, but this is the WHY of how his book is so persuasive: HUGE unhealed resentments can be VERY compelling.

I'm not sure that the whole theory falls apart if the two pictures are not of Beth Short.

While I also have some doubts about the identification of the pictures as those of Beth Short-- the eyes appear to be further apart in Hodel's pictures than in the known pictures of Short-- I think that the author did an outstanding job of portraying the period and his family dynamics.

I was also wondering what effect the exposure to the combination of violence and sex had on the young reporter George Hodel-- or perhaps if he was drawn to the job of crime reporter because he was titilated by violence and sex. It would have been interesting had the author been able to come up with more information about his father's formative years. There's lots of outline but so many unanswered questions there.